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Jim Jarmusch stealing ideas?

Broken Flowers, a film by Jim Jarmusch may have been a pitch by someone else before Jarmusch wrote his script. Saw an interesting report on CNBC and read the following article on Variety:
http://www.variety.com/article/VR11...s=1&query=reed+and+martin&display=reed+martin

What's interesting is how some of Reed Martin's characters and scenes are identical to Jarmush's script.

I never did feel comfortable in pitching ideas to Exec's in Hollywood without an agent or attorney setting up the meeting.
 
But Jarmusch doesn't deal with Hollywood as far as I know. He is in independent filmmaker and finances his films on his own. I would speculate that this is one of those occurances where two people and similar ideas at the same time.

And you can't copyright an idea... only a story. This article makes it sound the script writers are sueing because their "ideas" were stolen.
 
It's an interesting article.

There is an issue at the heart of it that runs deeper than copyright law.

Hollywood -- the industry as a whole trades in ideas -- that's the reason that you submit loglines to producers and not scripts -- no matter how well written the script, if they don't like the idea then the project isn't getting picked up.

In a very real sense they buy the idea -- because let's face it, the script can be fixed.

As screenwriters then, we are in the "ideas" business.

Only problem is that there is no legal protection for those ideas -- you can pitch to a producer, she/he can turn round and say "Actually we're already developing an idea just like that" which may or may not be true and they then take the idea and write the script themselves.

Now the truth of the matter is that however good the idea, it's in the script that the film is made.

So there is some legimacy in seeing the script as a different entity as the concept -- It is also true that there is no such thing as an original idea.

I had a situation five years back when I wrote a screenplay -- pitched the idea of it to an actor I wanted to work with in it -- only to be accused by her of stealing HER idea -- an idea that unbeknown to me, she had ptiched to my business partner whilst I was working on the screenplay!

Shit! She still believes to this day I ripped her off -- Of course if she knew me better, she'd know that I'm too arrogant to steal other people's ideas :lol:

I think, where I'm at with this is that I believe that a writer pitching an idea should be able to expect a degree of protection for their ideas -- and where there is a situation where a company is already developing a similiar project at the time of pitch, they should be able to back that up with evidence.

I think this would mean that companies would need a way of logging concepts they were working on, in the same way we log scripts with Library of Congress. It would need to be a confidential and private service -- but at least then these annoying lawsuits and accusations about "you stole my idea" would vanish.

Of course the real question is "Why would a company take the idea and not the script?"

And I think the lesson there is to make sure that the quality of the writing outshines the idea. If that's the case, all these isssues go away. It's easier and cheaper to buy a good script than to develop one from someone elses idea, because apart from at the low indie level, time to a producer is more valuable than money.
 
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Which is why...

clive said:
It's an interesting article.

There is an issue at the heart of it that runs deeper than copyright law.

Hollywood -- the industry as a whole trades in ideas -- that's the reason that you submit loglines to producers and not scripts -- no matter how well written the script, if they don't like the idea then the project isn't getting picked up.

In a very real sense they buy the idea -- because let's face it, the script can be fixed.

As screenwriters then, we are in the "ideas" business.

Only problem is that there is no legal protection for those ideas -- you can pitch to a producer, she/he can turn round and say "Actually we're already developing an idea just like that" which may or may not be true and they then take the idea and write the script themselves.

Now the truth of the matter is that however good the idea, it's in the script that the film is made.

So there is some legimacy in seeing the script as a different entity as the concept -- It is also true that there is no such thing as an original idea.

I had a situation five years back when I wrote a screenplay -- pitched the idea of it to an actor I wanted to work with in it -- only to be accused by her of stealing HER idea -- an idea that unbeknown to me, she had ptiched to my business partner whilst I was working on the screenplay!

Shit! She still believes to this day I ripped her off -- Of course if she knew me better, she'd know that I'm too arrogant to steal other people's ideas :lol:

I think, where I'm at with this is that I believe that a writer pitching an idea should be able to expect a degree of protection for their ideas -- and where there is a situation where a company is already developing a similiar project at the time of pitch, they should be able to back that up with evidence.

I think this would mean that companies would need a way of logging concepts they were working on, in the same way we log scripts with Library of Congress. It would need to be a confidential and private service -- but at least then these annoying lawsuits and accusations about "you stole my idea" would vanish.

Of course the real question is "Why would a company take the idea and not the script?"

And I think the lesson there is to make sure that the quality of the writing outshines the idea. If that's the case, all these isssues go away. It's easier and cheaper to buy a good script than to develop one from someone elses idea, because apart from at the low indie level, time to a producer is more valuable than money.
I'm very careful who I tell my ideas to... And yet another reason why I would never upload one of my screenplays to TriggerStreet or Zoetrope... There are some very good writers out there who couldn't come up with a high concept idea if it bit them on the ass...

And these are the same writers that would take someone's "idea" and turn around and write a pretty good screenplay around it.

If I were a newbie or someone trying to hone my skills and not yet sold a screenplay, I would be more wary of web sites like this than I would be of studios...

Normally speaking, a studio won't steal an idea... They would rather pay you for it and if that means purchasing the screenplay too... So be it. Whatever it takes to get the idea. But Hollywood is a very small community and stealing... Even though it does happen, is less frequent with the power players than it is with low level producers and writers looking for an idea worth writing...

Power players that steal outright wouldn't be in business very long because nobody will work with them...

On the other hand, what's going to end up happening here is that eventually, everyone... Even an A-List screenwriter could end up signing a release form before submitting a screenplay...

Every release form I've ever read/signed pretty much states that I understand that said prodco could be working on a screenplay with a similar or like idea and that ideas cannot be protected blah, blah, blah...

I already know A-List writers who only submit material through their attorney... Specifically for the protection of theft...

filmy
 
I'm very careful who I tell my ideas to... And yet another reason why I would never upload one of my screenplays to TriggerStreet or Zoetrope... There are some very good writers out there who couldn't come up with a high concept idea if it bit them on the ass...

And these are the same writers that would take someone's "idea" and turn around and write a pretty good screenplay around it.

That's pretty much how I see it as well -- I've never worried to much about the top end of the business -- it is other around other writers where I tend to hold stuff back.

In fact I've had ideas stolen from me in the past.

When I used to teach I would use one of my own ideas to explain high concept -- I had a film concept called "Shortfellas" the high concept logline was "Three midgets rob a bank" It worked in a teaching scenario because you're easily explaining everything you need to know about the film in just five words.

Anyhow, when myself and my ex-business partner split, our 1st AD came to me and handed me a script he'd been working on with my ex-business partner behing my back, based on this concept. He at least had the decency to ask me if it was OK for him to develop it furhter, as I'd never actually produced a script.

I let him have it -- mainly because the script was very, very bad and I'd moved onto other concepts -- but even so.

However, I've also recently been on the other end of that equasion.

I was approached by a guy earlier this year, to produce and direct a film from his screenplay -- I soon saw that he had a great idea, but just couldn't execute it -- I tried script editing it, helping him get it into shape, but soon realised that the only way for it to work was for me to write the damn thing myself.

In the end I dropped the whole thing, because of exactly the scenario above -- I was "taking his idea and writing a pretty good screenplay from it."

Now, even if I'd kept him in the loop financially (which of course I would) there would always be tension over who really owned the screenplay. Him because it was his idea or me because I was able to realise it into a form that worked.

In the end it's just easier to walk away and not look for fresh ideas.

Now I know his idea will now probably never see production -- and I also know that had I written the script, it probably would have -- and I think that this is where this arguement gets complex.

Even if someone steals an idea, there is no guarantee that the person who it was stolen from could have completed a saleable script -- it is just an idea.

What I'm not convinced of, is that increased litigation is the answer -- especially because this will make it increasingly more difficult for new writers to get their stuff in front of people. The industry is plagued by lawyers as it is.
 
clive said:
That's pretty much how I see it as well -- I've never worried to much about the top end of the business -- it is other around other writers where I tend to hold stuff back.

And how enticing it is to pitch and blab about the latest project, searching for reactions in fellow tradesmen? That's why I make all my ideas wierd; no one could steal them without looking like a crack head, and yet I get away with it because I have fluffy hair.

If anyone wants to ATTEMPT to steal this baby: "Guy is surfing the web and finds a (viral) video of himself pleasuring himself with a vaccuum cleaner and must go undercover to find out what happened on that fateful night. It turns out he got drunk... and signed up for a military cloning experiment, to which his clone is a self-pleasuring exhibitionist/assassin. They end up becoming roomates that bang out bizzare, overly-long high concept loglines."
 
"Guy is surfing the web and finds a (viral) video of himself pleasuring himself with a vaccuum cleaner and must go undercover to find out what happened on that fateful night. It turns out he got drunk... and signed up for a military cloning experiment, to which his clone is a self-pleasuring exhibitionist/assassin. They end up becoming roomates that bang out bizzare, overly-long high concept loglines.

And how does your room mate feel about this piece?
 
WriteumCowboy said:
Broken Flowers, a film by Jim Jarmusch may have been a pitch by someone else before Jarmusch wrote his script. Saw an interesting report on CNBC and read the following article on Variety:
http://www.variety.com/article/VR11...s=1&query=reed+and+martin&display=reed+martin

What's interesting is how some of Reed Martin's characters and scenes are identical to Jarmush's script.

I never did feel comfortable in pitching ideas to Exec's in Hollywood without an agent or attorney setting up the meeting.


before pitching ideas, don't you copywrite them first? or is pitching just sitting in a room and throwing anything that comes to mind?

if so, how do we know this guy is tellling the truth.
 
Thunderclap,

It appears that one of the studios involved where Reed Martin pitched his script was Universal, which is one of the entities now in the lawsuit along with Jarmusch, who took credit for the screenplay.Jarmisch may have been approached by the studio (Univeral) to write the script from the stolen concept.

Again, the "Ideas" are not copyrightable, but the attorney for Martin is suing for "implied contract" which states that when Martin pitched his script to Universal (copyrighted in 2003), the studio decided to contract to use the concept (makes no difference if the "implied contract" was written OR verbal. it'susing the concept was the "implied" part of the unspoken contract). Copyright of the original scriptpre-dates Jarmusch's script and the two scripts compared have detailed characters and specific scenes that are indentical in concept. Hardly something serendipitous on Jarmusch's part. It may be that the parts thw studio Exec. liked the most in the pitch, he insisted on keeping in the 2nd script.

In any event, this ain't pretty!

King Goldfish,

Again, ideas are not copyrightable.

Truth? Follow the paper trail.
 
California is a sue happy state. Yet, i feel bad for this guy who had his ideas credited in someone elses name.

Yes, thats a pretty low blow. People in hollywood are said to be some of the worst scumbags on earth. Sorry for the sweeping generalization, but is a very saturated business to get into.
 
the two scripts compared have detailed characters and specific scenes that are indentical in concept.

That's going to be a tough one to prove in court unless the people stealing have been grossly stupid and taken every single character.

I've seen Broken Flowers and there aren't a hell of a lot of original ideas or characters in it -- I mean Sexy Ex-Grilfriend with Nympo teenage daughter is hardly a mould breaking idea (nor is calling the daughter Lolita!)

The other characters are what "childless born again Christians" a "Biker Mama and her outlaw blokes"

The only original character in the film is the next door neighbour -- the "Latino obsessed with solving mysteries."

If the scenes are only "identical in concept" I can easily see how the whole thing could have come out of Jarmusch's head -- it's all so typically him: no plot to speak of, elliptical character who don't really say anything, little to no character development.

Heck, if it was me I be ASHAMED to admit to someone that I'd developed a script like that! LOL

The other thing that may have happened is Guy pitches idea -- it's lame studio bounces it -- Months later Jarmusch turns up with project -- it needs development -- exec throws in some ideas in a script conference, forgetting that they were pitched to him! In all innocence Jarmusch adds them in.

Could easily happen, without anyone consciously stealing anything.
 
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