COMPOSER's THREAD

S

Stephen Kaminski

I know many of you have been following our rather professional debate over working for credit vs working for money. (Sorry Matte)

As for me, I will only score Student Films for free. Once they graduate, I believe the producer should be able to cover at least some money for the score.

What do you think?

SK
 
OK, this isn't a proper reply as such, but....

Stephen, thanks for putting up the thread!!

(OK, maybe I will reply properly as well....)

I tend to figure that if the production has a budget, then they should allow for music. I tend to think in terms of a percentage, where the actual amount will depend on the quantity/importance of a soundtrack, experience of composer, any other fees, etc. Soooo, a student film probably has a budget of zilch, which means (in essene) free music. But if there is money available, then yes some of it should actually be spent on the audio.

Just my 2cents worth...
 
Stephen Kaminski said:
Once they graduate, I believe the producer should be able to cover at least some money for the score.
Click to expand...

Well, I can only deal with my experience in such matters. I am not a college graduate, although I am old enough to be. I have no intentions of ever returning to school. I, by far, know more about filmmaking than any school will ever teach me (notice I say "will" instead of "could", film schools are holding valuable info from the attendees, but that's another topic). So, let's consider me someone who has "graduated" from the need of film school.

I still have jack squat to spend on my movies.

Now, if I did have money to spend on a project, I'd consider paying for a score if there weren't dozens of folks out there who'd give me a decent score for free. Why would I pay for something I could get for free? I find a lot of people out there are willing to work for a) experience, b) the credit for a resume, or c) the joy of filmmaking. So, I'll go with them until I find better.

If you've reached a point in your professional life where you are confident enough in your work and conmfortable enough in your abilities where you can say pay me or I walk, more power to you, man. I hope someday to be able to join you.

Poke
 
This is a common problem composers face. Generally (and of course there are exceptions) composers liked to get paid for their work - we have bills, along with every one else. In order to get the gigs where you get paid, you need the credits/experience. Which usually means working for free.

I think Poke hits the nail firmly on the head - why bother paying for something that you can get for free? Of course, if (like him) there is no budget, then that is exactly what you're after. But if you've got funding from anywhere, then by actally paying composers something, you're supporting them enough to climb higher up the ladder, as well as encourgaing them (and yourselves) to progress as artists.

There is also the term "committment" which goes hand-in-hand with payment. I also work on computer games, and I've already lost count of the "free" games I signed up to work on, only to either hear that their previous guy quit because he got a paid gig, or that the developers decided to drop the project. Once anyone gets funding, you get a really important incentive to do even better than the best you've done already, and to stick with the project like glue.

I know I've already mentioned this is Matte's thread, but I'll say it here - I strongly recommend that composers don't give music for "free", but apply a 100% discount instead. That way, producers/directors get to see the "value" of your work, and appreciate more the fact that they're not paying for it. From a business point of view, it also makes it damn easier to start raising prices as you develop professionally. This isn't something I've thought of, it's solid advice from 2 high-ranking professionals in the game audio industry.

Wow, I wasn't expecting to write so much! Anyone else have thoughts?
 
If I need my wedding videotaped, edited and put on DVD, what could I expect if I get it for free as opposed to what would I expect if I pay a pro for it? Sure, some friends with a good DV will gladly shoot my wedding for free, but would I want them to on something so important?

Responding to Poke, and I've said this on the Matte's thread as well, you do get what you pay for. There is a difference. Someone who is a professional film scorer, who gets paid for what they do, can afford better gear and tools to be competitive out in the real world (as far as quality of sound goes). Someone sitting at home doing music for free is much more likely to sound like it came from a good Casio keyboard than a pro studio. The sound quality of the score, not only the writing, can make or break a film. I've seen good films be ruined by a cheap score, even at the Hollywood level, but I've also seen bad movies saved by a great score.

SK
 
Hi All,

Thanks to Stephen for getting this thread going. Nice job! And, once again, Poke takes the words right out of my mouth. However, we've all had that discussion already.

I'm both a composer and a filmmaker. Speaking strictly as a filmmaker, I'm much more likely to share future successes with those who have partnered with me versus those who have preferred to be paid. In fact, as Poke notes, there are simply too many out there who will work for the experience. And, guess what? They work harder in my opinion and don't bring any false expectations.

My analogy is like the difference between a major league baseball game and a good local high school baseball game. Give me the high school game any day of the week. Those guys work hard and produce more excitement! And, talk about affordable! :+) I get to see a lot more games that way.

And, it's a myth to suggest that you get what you pay for. Whomever said that should be shot. It "can" be true, but is not a fact of life. I recently built a website for a local university music department here in Atlanta. The director of music wanted to pay me. I said, no way. He twisted my arm, but I didn't give in.

I proposed an alternative. How about I compose a piece for your orchestra and you include it on your spring concert. He gladly agreed. Can you imagine what it would cost me to hire an orchestra? In fact, he's open to discussing further opportunities for the orchestra to do some music for my films. He suggested it might be good publicity for the orchestra and the music department.

Those who focus on pay will gain short-term rewards. Those who focus on relationships will gain the long term rewards.

Regards,

Hutch DeLoach
 
If people can go see a baseball game for free, why would anyone in their right mind pay to go see one? Well I guess millions disagree, but ask yourself why.

I guess I look at it that this is my profession, not my hobby. You can make good relationships with filmakers AND get paid too! Wow, what a concept! And... get credits while getting paid! Wow!

Poke said, "I'd consider paying for a score if there weren't dozens of folks out there who'd give me a decent score for free." If decent is all you want for your projects, then decent is all your projects will ever be, nothing more. Think higher folks.


SK
 
Personally, I believe that you get what you pay for, and the difference between the talent level you are able to get for free and the level you can get if you are able to offer some money, even if it is just a pittance, is substantial. I would love to pay everyone scale, or even just make it work their time, but sometimes I can’t. The distinction is not between if I want to or not, but that I am not capable of it because the money simply is not there, and if I did not rely on the kindness of strangers, the productions simply wouldn’t have been made. So if the chouse is between imposing on someone to work for free or not to work at all, I choose work.
 
Hutch said:
And, it's a myth to suggest that you get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

I don't think that statement is always false when considering hard goods; however, throwing more money at a person can't make them more creative or talented. I guess it could put the pressure on them to excel and pay more attention to detail, so in a way, paying someone could motivate them to a better product....but if they didn't have "it" in the first place, money isn't going to change a thing.

Stephen Kaminski said:
Poke said, "I'd consider paying for a score if there weren't dozens of folks out there who'd give me a decent score for free." If decent is all you want for your projects, then decent is all your projects will ever be, nothing more. Think higher folks.
Click to expand...

So is it not possible to have a great film with only a decent score? I don't want to piss off the music composers, but the fact of the matter is, if you do your job right, no one should notice the score, great or not. It should blend perfectly with the visuals to make sweet sweet orgasmic delight for the viewer. The music shouldn't stand out on its own unless it is intended to be on its own. A decent score shouldn't bring a film down to sub par levels, at least in my opinion it wouldn't. I've rarely walked out of film and said "man, that was great movie, but it would’ve been waaayyy better if the score was better." Just because you're not paying for the music doesn't discredit the musician for trying and doing his best. If it's just decent, then it's just decent. That's the opinion of the listener and the work of the musician. Don't get me wrong, the music is important, I just think that what is deemed "decent" music can work well in the right film.
 
Hey, if I can get a guy to do a score for me for free, and I become a successful filmmaker. He will be getting paid.

I like what Hutch said about building relationships, that's a good point.

By the way, you all know I'm sexy.

Poke
 
I can see that there are 2 distinct layers with both composers and producers (I'll use the term "producers" here as anyone who makes films). You've got those who make music (or films) as a hobby, and those who want to make a living out of it. And, of course, there are loads of variations in both camps for talent, focus, ability, etc. etc.

It's easy to confuse the hobbyists and those wanting to earn a living at an early stage in their development - both tend to work for free, both can do either great (or bad) work. And I fully agree with Goat that throwing money at someone who hasn't got "it" (whatever "it" happens to be defined as at the time) won't improve things.

But those who want to earn a living reach a point where they have to start charging. Why? Because they want to give up the crappy job they've got that keeps body and soul together, and actually do their work AND pay the bills (and, certainly from my point of view, re-invest that money into better equipment which will improve my work).

I think it's probably fair to say that the same things happen to producers.

Likewise, I would never think of charging a producer for music for their film if they haven't got any budget. It doesn't help them or me.

Wow, didn't mean to go on for so long. Just my 2cents worth! :D

Personally, I think more dialogue like this between composers and producers can only help us better understand one another.
 
I feel that if composers don't charge anything then they dis-value (I think I made that up) the craft and don't see their own work as having any value. Sure there are films with no budgets, but come on... producers can come up with at least something nominal.

Is Hutch saying that, like little league players, composers who write for free do it more from the heart than someone who gets paid? Does John Williams or Danny Elfman just do it for the money?

Baz is right, throwing money at someone won't make the person a better composer. You have to hire a composer based on two things: Composition talent and Quality of sound. (Notice the word "hire") The one's with both are the ones in demand. If the producer doesn't care what it sounds like and is only looking for a "decent" score in which to bury in the mix, then Talent and Quality doesn't matter. Then by all means get your free composer.

One example, Gorillas in the Mist - great film, but the score stands out at me because it sounds cheap. The quality of the score is bad although the composing (by Maurice Jarre) is fine. The score would have "done it's job" and been transparent had the lack of quality not stood out.

And Poke, yes damn it, you are sexy.
 
I think the issue for me is the expectation of working for no money. As has been pointed out, making money enables the artist (filmmaker, composer, etc.) to invest in training and tools. So if the film has a budget then everyone should be paid even if it's just a small gesture.

I really like the idea of the sliding scale discount.

Also, I believe that "pay" is not always financial. I thought Hutch's work with the university was an excellent barter. Unfortunately, when no financial pay is involved you don't often see such tangible results. So then you're dependent upon what happens as a result of the project (e.g success level of the film, developed relationships, networking, etc.).
 
This debate has been going on since the Earth cooled and probably will continue until the mother ship comes back for us all, so in an attempt to try to change the subject: What do you other composers use? Hardware, software, samplers, etc...How do you sync up to picture?
 
(nice subject change :D )

I use a PC for all my work. I've got a nice sound card which has great synth sounds (yamaha sw1000xg) and I use Cubase SX with Konpakt for samples. I'm just in the process of ordering Garritan Personal Orchestra. If you've never heard of it, it looks great! Check out http://www.garritan.com

I've also got a decent mic (AKG C1000s) and a little Behringer mixer as a pre-amp.

How about you guys?
 
I have a MAC G4 running Digital Performer. I use Kontakt as a virtual sampler. (Pro-Samples, Roland, & Native Instruments Libraries.) I also have a Roland XV-5080 Sound Module and a Korg X3 Keyboard along with some other outboard gear (ADAT, Delays, Reverb units, etc.) I use a Soundcraft 16-channel mixer and Event 20/20 reference monitors. I convert all films to QuickTime and run them inside of Digital Performer for sync.
 
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