Oh... I see. I just didn't know it was that simple. All I have to do is 100%?
Awesome. Thanks for the tip.
And you've done this 100% marketing yourself I'm assuming? And obviously it worked for you, and you speak from experience.
When do you know you should give up?
- Thread starter LDS
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Oh... I see. I just didn't know it was that simple. All I have to do is 100%?
Awesome. Thanks for the tip.
And you've done this 100% marketing yourself I'm assuming? And obviously it worked for you, and you speak from experience.
I've been waffling at this question, because I've been asking the same question almost every day. Should I abandon my dreams of being a mogul? Or just keep trying till I drop?
I'm known to have a relentless will, and my mindset is to keep trying again and again, even if I have no hope. But, is that the right solution for everyone in every situation? I don't know ... I just don't know.
I'm known to have a relentless will, and my mindset is to keep trying again and again, even if I have no hope. But, is that the right solution for everyone in every situation? I don't know ... I just don't know.
Yep.
This tag line here has been viewed on one social media site 1,132,641 million times at no cost to me: Watch LEXIE CANNES right now: http://www.amazon.com/Lexie-Cannes-CourtneyODonnell/dp/B00KEYH3LQ Or get the DVD: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0963781332
Unfortunately many filmmakers here are not up to making the effort to squeeze every damn buck out of their film, if any at all.
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Kudos.
But I would insist that the subject matter of your movie had something to do with the number of views. If you feel that it was all due to the charm of your marketing efforts and strategies (unless your subject matter is part of your marketing strategy), then I suppose you could make a movie about a pet rock and achieve similar success with your 100% effort. If that is really true, you should replicate the success every year.
I'm not belittling your achievement in either completing your feature or attracting over a million tag line views but unless these two achievements have resulted in your film having made a serious profit and/or in you having become a successful, in demand professional filmmaker, then there has to be a serious flaw or omission in your assertion or "math"!
I'm not saying marketing isn't crucial or isn't a common weakness, I'm saying it's just one piece of the puzzle/equation rather than everything, which your "math" attempts to assert.
The logical conclusion is that those who are telling you "oh you're good" are either just being polite/diplomatic or, that they don't understand/appreciate what "good" is, relative to the professional world. "Good" is a relative term and additionally, as technology improves/gets cheaper and the competition increases, what is considered "good" evolves. What may have been considered "good" commercially/professionally 1, 2 or 3 decades ago, may no longer be "good" today, it's a constantly moving goal post. However, it may not always be necessary to actually produce "good" (by professional standards) quality work to get noticed or taken on professionally, just demonstrating the potential to be "good" professionally/commercially might be enough.
This demonstrates the point I was trying to make in the last paragraph. Do you think that professionals (or those who hire them) judge how good or potentially good a filmmaker is solely on whether or not they have achieved a couple of hundred thousand views on Youtube? If not, why not? What else is it that they are looking for? ... There are many reasons why someone may get several hundred thousand views on Youtube and many of those reasons have little or nothing to do with how good/potentially good or suitable that person might be to hire in a professional filmmaking capacity.
That's a question which obviously only you can properly evaluate and decide. However, I have a few generalised points/observations which might be worth considering:
1. Improving your amateur filmmaking skills does not necessarily mean you are getting any closer to being a good/suitable employee in the professional filmmaking world! Therefore, setting your sights on and competing with other amateur filmmakers (who may get more youtube views than you) will ultimately lead to you just becoming a better amateur filmmaker, not to you becoming a professional filmmaker.
2. Most amateur filmmakers do not really want to be professional filmmakers. What they really want is to be amateur filmmakers with big, risk free budgets! In other words, most/many amateur filmmakers only want to be professional filmmakers under their own terms rather than under the terms of the industry itself. This reduces the odds of getting into what is already an extremely difficult and competitive field to miracle or lottery winning odds.
3. There appears to be fairly frequent mention of examples like Rodriguez and Peli in amateur filmmaking circles. But of the millions of wannabe filmmakers in the last 25 years and of the many thousands who are professional filmmakers, only a handful or so succeeded using the Rodriguez/Peli route and then only because of specific circumstances which may not even exist today. So again, lottery type odds which makes these filmmakers very much the exception rather than the rule. 4 years might seem a long time by these exceptions but it's not long at all by the rule. However, if you've spent 4 years and haven't got your foot on the bottom rung yet (PA/runner, etc.) then it probably is time to question your approach.
4. Besides what I've observed here on Indietalk, I don't have much experience of amateur filmmakers. However I do have considerable experience of amateurs and the crossover to professional in other fields (the music industry for example). I have seen a considerable number of fairly talented, or even fairly average amateurs, struggle for years. The vast majority of course either remain amateurs or give up entirely. Sometimes though something happens, often some innocuous/unremarkable incident which causes a change in approach and/or attitude and a relatively quick and dramatic change in fortunes.
G
...or to turn the question on its head, who of the Londoners regularly posting on here do you think will make it? A few have already fallen by the wayside in the last 3+ years I've been directing stuff but who would you pick to be successful? There are you, me, Nick Clapper, 8Salacious9 (banned), A.D. etc... By 'making it,' I mean hitting the professional level and earning a good living out of this?
I can start you off by saying I doubt I'll be successful but am plugging away at my structured plan. I'll also throw in 8Salacious9 by saying he could easily be a camera op and DoPing professionally by the end of 2016. If he's not a professional cameraman by the end of 2017, I'd be surprised but stranger things have happened.
So, by turning the question on its head, who do you think will make it?
I can start you off by saying I doubt I'll be successful but am plugging away at my structured plan. I'll also throw in 8Salacious9 by saying he could easily be a camera op and DoPing professionally by the end of 2016. If he's not a professional cameraman by the end of 2017, I'd be surprised but stranger things have happened.
So, by turning the question on its head, who do you think will make it?
Giving up is a choice. If you want to succeed you have to be prepared and committed enough to say, "I'm going to make it. No matter if others don't have faith. I won't give up." Personally, I have been wanting to be in the film industry since 1999, when I was about 16 years old, and I'm now 30 years of age, and still haven't made it in, but I'm not giving up, in fact, the only thing that will make me give up is death.
At OP and he rest:
GA found a target audience, discovered where they hang out and made sure he is present in that 'biosphere'.
That's the first part of marketing: knowing where to get in touch with your audience.
But a million views mean nothing when the conversion rate is 0,0000000000000 %
That's the second part: do you connect well enough with your target audience to have a conversion from viewing to buying?
So you need at least have a message/pay off/trailer that appeals enough to close the sale.
An awesome film surely helps to get higher conversion rates.
All in all marketing is about getting a top of mind position and seduce people to buy.
And that takes effort. Either in time or money or both.
1000 VIEWS! man, my most challenging and expensive film project ($2K aprox) has 600 view on YT. Id think 1000 was a smash hit! 
I'd like to ask you a few questions to expand on this point, because I never want to be in the OP's situation of feeling like giving up (nowhere near that, luckily)
1. What would you say led to their successes and failures? For example, would you say that the stress of a day job took away their motivation or energy to work on their goals?
2. Do you have any examples of these incidents which caused a change in their approach or perhaps examples of what exactly they changed about their work?
3. Did these acquaintances achieve their success before our current age of Internet/New Media, in other words, before there was a wealth of competition?
4. What advice would you give to someone in the OP's position, or even just someone who fears their amateur work will never progress into professional work?
This is a worthy point.
Having done one genre, I'm exploring options with a higher conversion rate without losing my initial audience.
My feature film, that was published in February this has now over 15 000 views in youtube.
This does not mean that film is good but I have done some work related to search words and how to optimize the views. Also the movie is a feature, a fact that helps a lot since most of the search words are quite related to features.
Have you done any work LDS related to how to gain more views in youtube. Specially the title, the thumbnail image and 2 first description fields are really important.
For instance I noticed that quite common search word in youtube in Finland is a " koko elokuva " (full movie) and I made sure (and tested) that when you use those search words, my feature film will show up in the results.
There are so much material in youtube, specially shorts that it is really hard to get views unless you optimize the youtube settings.
This does not mean that film is good but I have done some work related to search words and how to optimize the views. Also the movie is a feature, a fact that helps a lot since most of the search words are quite related to features.
Have you done any work LDS related to how to gain more views in youtube. Specially the title, the thumbnail image and 2 first description fields are really important.
For instance I noticed that quite common search word in youtube in Finland is a " koko elokuva " (full movie) and I made sure (and tested) that when you use those search words, my feature film will show up in the results.
There are so much material in youtube, specially shorts that it is really hard to get views unless you optimize the youtube settings.
I think there's a school of thought, which often pops up on this forum, which says that if you're fed up with your lack of success, you're simply not trying hard enough. I see the logic: filmmaking is a game of perseverance and perspiration, and if you're not willing to commit those things, it's always going to be an uphill struggle.
BUT... there are plenty of people with talent who give up, just as there are plenty of people without talent who succeed. 'Giving up' is not a reflection on you as a person, but an active decision that only you can make. Are you happy with things as they are? Are you happy struggling onwards for a few more years? Do you see a future where you're a professional, successful filmmaker? Could you be happy doing something else?
I think these are important questions for you to answer, and ones that only you know the truth of. If you genuinely think that all your work is futile and not going anywhere, then I don't think there's anything dishonourable in calling it a day. But make sure that you have something else you want to do; something that makes you happy. Giving up on film and going off to work a 9-5 with no hobbies, or interests, or anything to keep the tide of boredom at bay, would be a mistake. If you still enjoy acting and making films, you need to find a way to get yourself psychologically into a place where the end goal is less important – perhaps that means focusing on other work and putting film on the back burner, or lowering your expectations of yourself and others, so that the questions of 'When do you know you should give up?' becomes a moot point.
But you have a short film with over 200,000 views (from what I remember) so you could be doing a lot worse!
BUT... there are plenty of people with talent who give up, just as there are plenty of people without talent who succeed. 'Giving up' is not a reflection on you as a person, but an active decision that only you can make. Are you happy with things as they are? Are you happy struggling onwards for a few more years? Do you see a future where you're a professional, successful filmmaker? Could you be happy doing something else?
I think these are important questions for you to answer, and ones that only you know the truth of. If you genuinely think that all your work is futile and not going anywhere, then I don't think there's anything dishonourable in calling it a day. But make sure that you have something else you want to do; something that makes you happy. Giving up on film and going off to work a 9-5 with no hobbies, or interests, or anything to keep the tide of boredom at bay, would be a mistake. If you still enjoy acting and making films, you need to find a way to get yourself psychologically into a place where the end goal is less important – perhaps that means focusing on other work and putting film on the back burner, or lowering your expectations of yourself and others, so that the questions of 'When do you know you should give up?' becomes a moot point.
But you have a short film with over 200,000 views (from what I remember) so you could be doing a lot worse!
OP - What are you really trying to accomplish? Is money the end goal for you? Serious question here. There's nothing wrong money being the main goal.
I could write a book to answer these questions! I'll try and keep my answers brief but in doing so I may end up being a little cryptic or dumbed down. As background, I studied music performance at one of the UK's (and Europe's) top conservatoires and later I was married (and worked with) to one of the top international concert soloists. Combined, these experiences allowed me to meet, socialise and/or work with many of the best amateurs, aspiring pros and most successful pros. World class pros like Rostropovich, Leonard Bernstein and Placido Domingo, through to those like Dave Gilmore, Peter Gabriel, Bjork, Norman Cook (FatBoy Slim) and many others (both luminaries and more "average" pros).
1. There is an almost infinite number of answers to this question. If I were to distil it down to a generalisation, I would say; approach and attitude. The overwhelming majority of amateurs have an amateur approach and attitude. No matter how much natural talent or how skilled one becomes at playing a musical instrument (or filmmaking) the best one can hope to achieve with an amateur attitude and approach is to be a very talented/good amateur musician (filmmaker). The mistake made by so many is that they make incorrect assumptions regarding the difference between "amateur" and "professional". They make these incorrect assumptions based on the appearance of various professional musical performances (or films) but musical performances (or films) are not defined by natural (or acquired) talent! They are defined by a general practise regime and specific preparation, in other words, they are defined by everything the musician has done behind the scenes leading up to the performance. And, it's here, in this behind the scenes preparation, where the biggest difference between amateur and professional exists! There are always areas/aspects of playing an instrument and performing where one is stronger and other areas/aspects where one is weaker and no one, not even the greatest musicians, are naturally gifted enough to not have to work extremely hard. But, even this is not necessarily the main difference because many serious amateurs work extremely hard too. The difference is in how that work is targeted and what it's aims are. In general, amateurs either don't consciously target their work at all or if they do, they tend to dedicate a disproportionate amount of their time/effort/work to those areas which they enjoy the most, rather than to those areas which are weakest and/or require the most time/effort/work! Furthermore, the aims/goals of that work needs to be realistic; ultimately it comes down to risk identification and management, although few musicians (or filmmakers) would put it in those terms. For the professional, this means achieving a certain level of predictability/consistency. To a significant extent, amateur performances are judged by what the performer does well, by the performer's strengths, while professional performers are judged more on what they don't do well, on their weaknesses.
2. Yes, I have quite a few examples but citing one or even a couple of them would give an incomplete or misleading picture and to be honest I don't have the time. All of them though involve some usually minor incident which caused a "light bulb" moment and a change in approach/attitude.
3. I'm not sure this question is entirely relevant because I don't believe there is a greater wealth of competition today than before the internet age. In the 80's and earlier, large numbers of people wanted to be a rock star or Hollywood star (actor or director), probably not much different numbers to today. What has changed is that dramatically more now have the means to actually create some sort of product rather than having to wait to "get noticed" and then being nurtured through the product creation process. This might sound like an improvement but it's very much a two-edged sword!
4. I believe that a large part of the problem is the premise of the question itself, the premise that amateur work can/does "progress to professional work". Switching over to filmmaking specifically, rather than generalisations which can include filmmaking, I don't believe amateur work does or ever has led directly to professional work or at least not for a hundred years or so. Amateur filmmaking and commercial filmmaking are two different things, with different techniques, different working practises, different priorities and different goals. For this reason, why would amateur filmmaking lead to professional filmmaking? Sure, there are a handful of exceptions over the past 25 years or so but one can't logically base a realistic goal on a one in a several million exception!
So, what can the OP do? I don't know much about the OP, so basing it on a generalisation I would suggest the following:
First, be sure you really want to be a professional! It's not uncommon for amateurs who do eventually manage to secure a full-time professional role to then leave the industry after a while because they discover that being a professional is not what they expected from their experience of amateur filmmaking. In other words, many amateurs don't really want to be a professional, what they really want is to be a paid, full-time amateur but within the industry, there's really no such thing as a professional amateur-filmmaker.
Second, if you do want to be a professional then you're going to need to develop a professional attitude and approach. You'll also need an understanding of professional practises/workflows and expectations, so finding an internship or job as a runner to start with is a sensible approach. The OP stated that he has been unsuccessful in securing such a position. There are a number of possible reasons but the most likely is that he isn't selling what the buyers want to buy! Maybe the OP is selling himself as an amateur filmmaker or aspiring pro filmmaker but the "buyers" aren't looking to buy an amateur filmmaker, they are looking to buy a runner! In other words, find out what your "buyers" want to buy and then sell that to them (and nothing else!). In the case of a runner, that probably means you need to be selling: discretion, invisibility, punctuality and reliability, hard work without limitation and nothing else. Although you need to do your research and find out EXACTLY what you need to be selling to your targeted buyers. It's a reasonably safe bet though that selling them an amateur/aspiring filmmaker who's likely to distract them at the wrong time with newbie questions won't get you far!
G
Here's some casting calls I found online - some of them are just for roles as an extra but these are for some big shows, which looks ok in my opinion on a resume, I posted some of them below, you could - check it out I guess:
Casting Call for How To Get Away With Murder - http://www.projectcasting.com/casting-calls-acting-auditions/get-away-murder-new-talent-casting-call/
This site I've posted below also has some great resources for casting calls for some pretty big named films IMO and as I said, I would think that would look great on an acting resume. I posted the link below:
http://www.2014auditions.com/movie-auditions/
I wouldn't quit acting or filmmaking. It's a long, long, LONG hard, hard process trying to make a name for yourself in both professions but you'll get there.
Just keep pushing and keep fighting. The moment you give up is right when the moment when it could happen Here's some casting calls I found online - some of them are just for roles as an extra but these are for some big shows, which looks ok in my opinion on a resume, I posted some of them below, you could - check it out I guess:
Casting Call for How To Get Away With Murder - http://www.projectcasting.com/casting-calls-acting-auditions/get-away-murder-new-talent-casting-call/
This site I've posted below also has some great resources for casting calls for some pretty big named films IMO and as I said, I would think that would look great on an acting resume. I posted the link below:
http://www.2014auditions.com/movie-auditions/
I wouldn't quit acting or filmmaking. It's a long, long, LONG hard, hard process trying to make a name for yourself in both professions but you'll get there.
thanks, but the only problem is, I am based in the UK with no work pertmit to work in the US so I can forget about American Dream lol
AND England is different... SO different from the US film world.... If you want to be an actor in the UK you better do not mention you have ever worked as an extra - you will be ignored and forgotten + foreigners (people whose English is second language) are not welcome in British films or on British TV - I'm not calling them racists but... they just don't like foreigners (whose English is second language)
thanks, but the only problem is, I am based in the UK with no work pertmit to work in the US so I can forget about American Dream lol
AND England is different... SO different from the US film world.... If you want to be an actor in the UK you better do not mention you have ever worked as an extra - you will be ignored and forgotten + foreigners (people whose English is second language) are not welcome in British films or on British TV - I'm not calling them racists but... they just don't like foreigners (whose English is second language)
Wow, first let me say you're in England? LUCKY....I would kill to live in England or Ireland or Scotland - those three have THE cutiest accents and Ireland is the home of Thomas Andrews Jr....My hero anyway back to your issue.
Have you thought of applying for a O1 Visa? It allows actors from the U.K. and other countries to come to the U.S. and work and it's not expensive, a lot of actors have done it, I'm sure - Gerard Butler, Ewan Stewart, The guy who played in The Artist - can't think of his name. Getting to the US and getting work would be great because you'd really get access to roles and such.
The question I have is, were you born in the UK or do you just live there thus - in England's eyes you're considered a foreigner?