Mike Wilde's Opinion Of Indie Films--Amaateur

I taught myself MS Office. ... So, later when we were expected to know MS Office for my day job, I was more advanced than others. Does that make me an amateur?

It makes you more advanced than your colleagues, it might even have made you highly proficient at operating that software but even if you were/are highly proficient at operating that software, does that make you a professional author or poet?

I we make a film that draws enough public interest, they will come knocking at our door. Money talks and BS walks.

Exactly! How many films have you made which drew enough public interest for "them" (presumably you're talking about major film investors, distributors, studios) to come knocking at your door? How many amateur films have been made in say the last 5 years and what percentage got a knock on door from "them"?

The hugely reduced cost of much of the filmmaking technology means there is exponentially more "BS walkers" than ever before. And Mike was ranting because these "BS walkers" often consider and market themselves as the real deal and this flood of BS is making it increasingly difficult for the "real deals" to get heard/noticed.

I already called out Mike Wilde on his comments with a reply. Essentially, I told him the following.

It is easy to put people down when you are inside a big company. Try starting up your own business and see how great it is working with inexperienced people all around you trying to make something, but turning out something not as good as hoped.

Huh, how's that calling him out? It seems to me to be supporting his argument!

I think the jump to professional just requires good enough amateur films that you will attract professional help or investment to your next project.

If one is getting professional help and listening/learning from that help then one is not self taught, in a sense that's a type of internship. Most of the work I do is for commercial ProdCOs, working with experienced professional directors and producers, while they frequently have taken decisions which make my job more difficult they do have a good idea of how the system works, the hierarchies, workflows, etc. Amateurs invariably don't know how to be a Director or know how to direct only certain aspects of the filmmaking process. The result is almost always a compromised or very compromised end product, even if professionals are used.

G
 
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I am calling him out by him implying people without the money and resources behind them are "amateurs." That is why I told him to see how easy it would be to start his own production company from the ground up without money and support.

Can we call the silent filmmakers who made the very first motion pictures "Professionals" or "Amateurs"? They had to start from somewhere. So do small business owners.

Look at how Hollywood and the publishing world is drawn to cash in on the success and fan bases of others. To gain respect, we have to show them we have gold mines.
 
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I am calling him out by him implying people without the money and resources behind them are "amateurs." That is why I told him to see how easy it would be to start his own production company from the ground up without money and support.

It's not easy at all, in fact it's virtually impossible ... and that's his point! Without financial resources or someone highly experienced and successful at attracting financial resources and without experienced professionals to make, market and distribute the product/s, the chances of making a successful film are close to zero. Starting up a ProdCo with none of these resources (financial or personnel) in place or easily accessible is pretty much by definition amateur and doomed to failure.

Can we call the silent filmmakers who made the very first motion pictures "Professionals" or "Amateurs"? They had to start from somewhere. So do small business owners.

What was acceptable to distributors and cinema audiences over 100 years ago is completely irrelevant to what is acceptable today! If any of those pioneering filmmakers were alive today and tried to make the films as they did 100+ years ago they would fail miserably in today's market because today's market has completely different technical requirements and completely different audience expectations. Enzo Ferrari built a formula race car in his garage in the 1950s, technology and the Formula race industry has moved on considerably since the 1950s though. Trying to start Formula race car design/construction today needs teams of highly skilled experienced experts, a large factory and 8-9+ figure financial resources. A guy working in his garage building a Formula race car today is an amateur and stands virtually no chance of meeting the tech specs required to even enter a Formula 1 race, let alone being in any way competitive!

Look at how Hollywood and the publishing world is drawn to cash in on the success and fan bases of others. To gain respect, we have to show them we have gold mines.

And what gold mines would they be? If you don't actually have a gold mine, doesn't that make you one of the "BS talkers" you mentioned previously?

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While I'm not sure exactly if this qualifies as one of the gold mines that he was talking about, this is a pretty telling article: http://www.businessinsider.com/teens-love-youtube-2014-8

tl;dr version: Teenagers are more influenced by youtube stars than what we call celebrities. I'm sure many of those Youtubers are now in lucrative promotional deals, but most started as unpaid amateurs. Bottom line - they are being taken more seriously by a very influential demographic than the professionals.

TBH the terms amateur and professional are less meaningful than they used to be. As high quality gear is now much more affordable there are many amateurs who think they can drop $500 on a camera and call themselves a professional photographer or videographer. I have a friend who did that - her work is terrible and she gets paid for it, while the members of this very site are producing beautiful content just for fun, and that content far surpasses the quality of my "professional" friend.
 
Here is another interesting thing.

Nikola Tesla only now is beginning to be recognized as one of the greatest inventors of the twentieth century. People are conditioned to believe Thomas Edison was a great inventor.

Nikola Tesla worked for Edison for a while and Edison took credit for Tesla's inventions.

There is a statue of Tesla by the Niagra Falls Hydro Electric Power Plant that Tesla designed himself.

Tesla invented AC electricity. Is that common knowledge? No.

If Tesla had someone to market is ideas and a PR rep, he would be more famous than Edison.

Tesla left us was gold mines of inventions he did not know how to market himself.

There can be other diamonds in the rough that could go from amateur to pro with just the right help.
 
On the creative side of business, Edgar Allan Poe died a poor man. He never was recognized for his writing genius while he lived. His works only became famous after he died. And, he is not alone.
 
I don't think either of those are good examples - neither Tesla nor Poe were amateurs. Both did what they did professionally and had a good degree of recognition during their lives for their professional work, even if they didn't benefit significantly from it in a monetary sense (although Tesla did in fact make quite a bit of money from his inventions). It's true they've both gained significantly more fame and recognition long after their death, but they certainly weren't amateurs toiling in obscurity during their lives, waiting for someone to discover their "diamond(s) in the rough".
 
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Poe was a struggling writer all of his life. He had some of his stuff published in magazines. But, they did not sell good and he struggled.

I sold stuff as a ghost writer to comic book magazine science fiction series. I have been reviewed in magazines for my vampire books and I got two reviews for my last short as a filmmaker. But, I will still be an amateur.

I need to get back to writing my science fiction short stories to sell to help out my I, Creator series films.

I don't expect much fame or publicity, but they should help to promote the films.

So, comparing Poe to struggling artists here is a good comparison.
 
Tesla invented AC electricity. Is that common knowledge? No

It's not common knowledge because it's not true!! Michael Faraday invented/discovered AC electricity long before Edison or Tesla were even born and that is common knowledge, at least among the well educated. All Tesla did is invent a more efficient AC motor which made AC power a more practical solution for large scale distribution.

So, comparing Poe to struggling artists here is a good comparison.

How does the fledgeling US publishing industry and the life of an author of 180 years ago bare any resemblance or "comparison" to the mature commercial filmmaking industry which exists in the USA today? Industries don't just miraculously pop into existence, nothing one day and then a huge commercial industry the next, they usually evolve from humble beginnings. Almost by definition, before an industry becomes a commercial industry it is started by or with the strong involvement of amateurs. As it becomes a commercial industry then again by definition it becomes dominated by professionals.

Unlike literature, filmmaking is a combination of a wide range of arts/crafts AND technologies all rolled up into a single package and because of this, filmmaking and audience expectations evolve relatively rapidly. For this reason, unlike the old "fine arts", I know of no examples of amateur filmmakers whose works only became famous/successful after their death. Not only aren't Tesla and Poe a "good comparison", they are no comparison at all!! Have you no relatively recent filmmaking examples/comparisons? And, if not, why not? ... If you were making your argument a 100 years ago, I would agree with you but in today's film industry it just seems bizarrely naive.

There can be other diamonds in the rough that could go from amateur to pro with just the right help.

If by the "right help" you mean professional film funding and experienced professionals making your film then I would agree with you but that would rather negate your argument.

G
 
He is obviously filled with rage at small filmmakers, however.

I would say it's more of a jaded overview of the industry as a whole, tbh.

His paragraph about the 1ST AD with stunts makes me wonder if he got injured doing stunts and the producers could not help him with a hospital bill.

Regardless, he's not incorrect. I've witnessed many, many unsafe situations on such 'amateur' (or 'indie') productions. Every time I raise my concerns, and every time I'm not entirely convinced that the AD had even contemplated my concern, let alone prepared a solution. I've witnessed 'stunts' taking place without stunt supervisors. I've been a part of countless productions shooting on open road without so much as high-vis vests, let alone traffic management.

making the assumption that an amateur film can't be good.

I would disagree somewhat - certainly amateur films can be good, and I'm sure the original writer is aware of that. I think, however, the argument is around semantics - to call yourself a professional simply because you have made a 'good' film (by whose standards?) is not really accurate at all. And there are plenty who do - his point is that traditionally the implication of an 'indie' filmmaker is that they are still a professional. Yet, the term has become diluted by amateurs who call themselves 'indie' in attempt to 'legitimize themselves.' That's not to say that all amateur films are bad, I think the point is more along the lines of simply having made a good/decent film does not suddenly make you a professional, and even moreso - simply having made a film at all does not make you a professional (especially if it's 'bad').

As I'm sure APE will back up, an amateur Sound Designer may make quite an aurally pleasing sound design for a film - it may be praised for being good, but it does not make them a professional.

In much the same way that a DP can go out and shoot some nice shots on their Blackmagic Pocket of birds and trees and nature. It can look good, but it does not make them a professional DP.

There's a low-budget independent production with a budget of $5mil, a cast of 30 and a crew of 60, all of whom are getting paid, and all who have legitimate credits on other independent or studio productions, working 12-hour days, 6 days a week for 3 months and performing as they would on any other production, be it studio or independent. Then there's a 'low-budget independent production' with a budget of $500, a cast of 3 and a crew of 4, none of whom are getting paid, all of whom have little to no credits, shooting on a borrowed DSLR, doing 5-hour days each weekend for a number of weeks. There's a huge difference between the two, and I think the point he's trying to make is that it's impossible to liken the two, as they are totally different beings, and amateur filmmakers (like the latter example) should perhaps not attempt to liken themselves and equate themselves with such productions as a way to legitimize themselves.

I've certainly been a victim of low-ball pay offers, no-pay offers, 'deferred' (i.e. no pay) offers from amateurs. I've then seen this attitude carry over onto productions that do have budgets. I've been offered a $50-$100/day token rate to Focus Pull on commercials with $10k+ budgets. I've seen MUAs argue with the DP. I've seen Data Wranglers argue with the DP. To me, that's totally unacceptable, but perhaps it's a by-product of this current generation of amateur filmmakers who have never learned how to be professional, despite the fact that they may label themselves as such.

TBH the terms amateur and professional are less meaningful than they used to be. As high quality gear is now much more affordable there are many amateurs who think they can drop $500 on a camera and call themselves a professional photographer or videographer. I have a friend who did that - her work is terrible and she gets paid for it, while the members of this very site are producing beautiful content just for fun, and that content far surpasses the quality of my "professional" friend.

I believe that's perhaps an underlying point of the initial post. Amateur and professional is not simply about who gets paid and who doesn't get paid anymore.

I think there's much more to being a professional in this field than just whether or not you get paid. It comes down to your experience and attitude, your awareness of the craft and the industry, the way you present yourself and whether or not you have the ability to perform your job in the same way that other professionals do - all in addition to the work you're doing.

For example, if someone were paid $5000 to do the sound design on an 'indie' film, and it was someone who had just stepped out of film school, had little to no experience in sound on professional films, who then delivered a stereo mix that sounded simply adequate - you'd probably call them an amateur.

Whereas if Randy Thom worked on a project for free, you would still call him a professional.
 
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I think he overly generalizes, but not by much, and makes some very salient points. I also don't detect any rage or resentment, just strong opinions worded strongly.

C'mon, let's have a little self-awareness of our community here. There are people who don't fit his negative description of an 'amateur' but they tend to be the exception, not the rule. The indie 'business' is flooding with the "me generation" that just wants to do creative stuff and get paid but doesn't want to put in any real hard work. We have talked (complained) about that signal to noise ratio on this very board.
 
There's a huge difference between the two, and I think the point he's trying to make is that it's impossible to liken the two, as they are totally different beings, and amateur filmmakers (like the latter example) should perhaps not attempt to liken themselves and equate themselves with such productions as a way to legitimize themselves.

The impression I got of his post was much different, based on his final line:

The only way to get rid of these amateurs is to close them down - get them off the streets - and make it possible for them to be real filmmakers by employing them as interns and training them.

He seems to be saying there's no place for this type of amateur filmmaking, that they need to be '[gotten] rid of' and 'closed down'. That's where I disagree - make the distinction between the two clearer, fine, but to suggest that there isn't room for both is absurd and doesn't accurately reflect the times we live in.
 
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As I'm sure APE will back up, an amateur Sound Designer may make quite an aurally pleasing sound design for a film - it may be praised for being good, but it does not make them a professional.

It's obviously a little more complex but in essence, yes, I do agree with you. Some scenes are relatively easy to make sound good, even by a relative novice, other times it needs great skill/experience to get something up to the level of just sounding unremarkable. It's a very difficult situation for inexperienced filmmakers because judging the quality of sound design is not just about how good it sounds but about how good it could have sounded, how much more it could have aided the storytelling and that requires enough knowledge, experience and imagination to think creatively about sound design.

The indie 'business' is flooding with the "me generation" that just wants to do creative stuff and get paid but doesn't want to put in any real hard work.

I agree with your post, with the caveat that many do put in hard work but tend to concentrate that hard work into filmmaking areas of specific personal interest rather than in all the areas required to make a commercial product. The end result is almost always the film the filmmaker wants to make, rather than a film the market wants. Amateurs often get caught in a vicious circle of their film never quite ending up as they wanted/intended and trying to improve by making the next one closer to what they want.

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It says that you have to join the group to view the discussion. And it says that you have to be a professional to join the group. :(
 
It says that you have to join the group to view the discussion. And it says that you have to be a professional to join the group. :(

That is why, upon request, I copied and pasted his post. We have known most people here don't stand a chance in Hollywood. As arrogant and nasty as Mike Wilde's post is, it helps us to see how we are viewed by these, "Professionals." It's like finding our place in the Universe. We like to think of ourselves as "Indie" filmmakers. To them, we are the amateurs of the industry. Mike claims amateurs are uneducated, ignorant, and should be taken off the streets.

I suggest you read more of the early posts where I copied and pasted his post and the reactions of our members that followed.
 
Not that it really matters. Just curious. What are Mike Wilde's credentials? Or what is his background? I tried finding his IMDb page, but there seem to be a number of Mike Wildes. And I wouldn't know which one he is. Or maybe you can only see his profile page with IMDbPro?
 
Well, the discussion has been deleted anyway.
Probably too much negative responses ;)

(I'm accepted as a member. Yes! I must be a pro then!! ;) )
 
As arrogant and nasty as Mike Wilde's post is, it helps us to see how we are viewed by these, "Professionals."

It was neither arrogant nor nasty, although it was a bit harsh and over generalised in places. Some of your responses on the other hand have been rather arrogant.

We like to think of ourselves as "Indie" filmmakers. To them, we are the amateurs of the industry.

Indie filmmaking used to have a specific meaning, as Mike W explained. Today though that meaning has been subverted because just like you, many amateurs "like to think" of themselves as indie filmmakers rather than as amateurs. Just as with "professionals", the term "amateur" covers a wide range filmmakers, from complete noobs through to very experienced amateurs capable of near professional results in some areas. I aspire to be and would one day like to think of myself as a world class professional sound designer/re-recording mixer. However, for the time being at least, the reality is that I'm not world class, I'm just a decent experienced professional. The difference is that I don't currently think of myself as world class and I don't call or advertise myself as world class simply because that's what I want to be! Regardless of what you want to think of yourself, at this point in time you are not an indie film maker, you are in practice an amateur video maker. Bizarrely, you appear to feel deeply insulted because Mike W has in effect pointed out the reality of your current position/situation. Dreams and aspirations are a vital ingredient in being/becoming a filmmaker but so is a healthy dose of objectivity!

Mike claims amateurs are uneducated, ignorant, and should be taken off the streets.

Amateurs are uneducated and ignorant! Even those who have achieved a degree in filmmaking are only partially educated, are still ignorant in some/many filmmaking areas and are still amateurs. Heck, I've been a professional in the industry for 20 years and I'm still ignorant/uneducated in most areas, even some of the audio areas! I'm relatively ignorant of production sound for example. Just knowing the basic definitions/roles of all the professional film jobs/positions is not enough, one has to have a deeper understanding than that AND, one has to know how to employ professionals fulfilling those positions, how to facilitate them and how to direct them. This is not something amateurs can learn on their own, the most they can learn on their own is how to employ, facilitate and direct other amateurs! Therefore, if/when an opportunity does arise to use a professional, amateur filmmakers generally have little/no experience of how to facilitate or direct them, which means their work is invariably compromised, often quite severely.

Furthermore, due to severe budgetary constraints, amateur filmmakers have to cut a lot of corners and achieve more with fewer people (fewer amateur people!). But, having little/no experience of commercial workflows or why they exist and limited or no understanding of many of the film roles beyond the basics almost invariably results in amateur filmmakers cutting corners in inappropriate areas. In other words, favouring certain filmmaking areas over others based on little more than personal pleasure/interest rather than on the demands/requirements of the market. This too is a definition of "amateur" and while it virtually always results in commercially unmarketable videos/films, in certain circumstances the cutting of inappropriate corners and amateurs posing as professionals can create physically dangerous or even lethal situations!

Your quote is disingenuous at a number of levels not least because you appear to have deliberately misrepresented what Mike W said! 1. Mike W doesn't state or claim "amateurs" should be taken off the streets, he actually said "these amateurs"; referring specifically to those amateurs who delude themselves (and try to delude others) into believing that they're actual indie filmmakers rather than in fact being amateur video makers. A classic application of the phrase "a little knowledge is dangerous"! 2. He doesn't simply say that these amateur filmmakers should be "taken off the streets", the implication being; they should be gotten rid of. He says they should be taken off the streets AND given paid internships AND training so they can gain actual knowledge/experience of professional filmmaking. Of course, this is only a partial solution because with the low cost of some of the technology, there are far more people calling themselves or aspiring to be indie filmmakers than there could ever be available internships for.

G
 
Well, the discussion has been deleted anyway.
Probably too much negative responses ;)

(I'm accepted as a member. Yes! I must be a pro then!! ;) )

I noticed that too! I am also a member. I did respond to him in his post a day or two before his post was deleted. He was too one-sided. So, I shed some light on what it is like to try to make a business without resources and money from the ground up.
 
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