If someone associated with your film uses illegal software..

cheeseandachallenge

cheeseandachallenge

If someone collaborating on your film (e.g. a composer, a vfx artist, an animator, an sound designer, etc) is using illegal software - can there be legal repercussions for me (director/producer)?

It's unlikely something I do gets audited (at least at this stage), but say I have a killer idea for a short I can do on a tiny budget and it does well at a festival. I then get audited - I'm in the clear because I own adobe cc, and all the software I use. But one of my collaborators is found to have pirated software. Is it the collaborator's responsibility or mine?
 
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directorik said:
For those of you who are saying a filmmaker can be held liable and
the film barred form release do you have any examples of this
happening? Do you have an idea of how the owner of the pirated
software finds out? Do software companies have agreements with
distributors?
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I couldn't foresee any time a filmmaker would be audited in the first place.

A production company - or more likely a post house or similar could very well be audited, especially if someone whistle-blows when they leave the company on bad terms (I've seen it happen).

They couldn't stop a film from being made or distributed, however. They might slap the company with a decent fine.
 
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directorik said:
I have made many deals with distributors. I have several dozen
agreements in my position as I write this. ... Not one includes any
wording about the software used.
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I've never seen the full details of the contracts between production companies and distributors but I have seen (and signed) many contracts as a sub-contractor to a production company (music composition in the past, sound design, etc.). I also have never seen any wording specifically about software. However, it is standard to have various clauses pertaining to the originality of what I create, the appropriate licensing of whatever I use which isn't solely my IP and which holds me liable for any damages or legal expenses incurred by any copyright claims made against the production company in respect of my work.

When one buys software, one isn't actually buying the software, one is buying a limited, conditional licence to copy/install and use the software. I'm no lawyer but I've always assumed the standard copyright/licensing clauses I see in most of my contracts also applies to the software I use, even though software is not specifically mentioned. If a sub-contractor does use unlicensed/pirated software then a contract containing these standard clauses should protect the filmmaker against any claims.

directorik said:
I can't imagine in any scenario how (for example) Apple could ever know that the movie was edited using pirated Final Cup Pro.
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I can and in fact have experienced just such a scenario when a temporary employee of mine reported me to a software company for using pirated software when I refused to offer him a full-time position once their temporary contract had finished. BTW, the software was not pirated and I was in fact a fully registered user, it was just a bug introduced by an update which caused a splashscreen to pop-up on launch which stated the software was unregistered. A couple of emails with the software company and it was all sorted.

G
 
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AudioPostExpert said:
When one buys software, one isn't actually buying the software, one is buying a limited, conditional licence to copy/install and use the software.
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I understands that. A company (or even an individual) can get in
trouble for having unlicensed software. So (as an example) an
editor using a pirated copy of FCP could get into trouble. I can't
figure out how a software owner could bar the finished film from
being released.




AudioPostExpert said:
I can and in fact have experienced just such a scenario when a temporary employee of mine reported me to a software company for using pirated software when I refused to offer him a full-time position once their temporary contract had finished.
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Not the scenario I presented. More to the point; could a distributor bar
the fina product from being released if (and I know this is an IF) the
software you use was, in fact, pirated?

I understand that (in the example I'm using) Apple could choose to
bring charges against an editor for using the unlicensed software – but
can the keep the film from being released? Or sue the producer based
on the finished film?

Even if the pirated software is mine: I am the editor using pirated FCP
software to cut my movie. I'm also the producer. A distributor picks up
my film. Can Apple prevent the distributor from distributing my movie?
Use any software in the example - audio, compositing, color correction,
animation, titling. What if the writer of the script used a pirated copy of
Final Draft?

To the original question and the answers. Can a movie be bared from
release by a software company if a pirated version of their software was
used? Photon says 25 years to life. kinghtly says it can happen.
 
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This is an unrelated question, but this thread made me think of this, if you were starting a production company with multiple employees, could you put down the software (and any plugins) you purchase as tax write-offs?
 
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mussonman said:
This is an unrelated question, but this thread made me think of this, if you were starting a production company with multiple employees, could you put down the software (and any plugins) you purchase as tax write-offs?
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The short answer, yes.

The slightly more involved answer...

Not sure about software, but for hardware if it was purchase prior to the company officially being formed, it can usually be added as an asset depreciated over a few years, if it was purchased within the same year the company was formed. Possibly similar for software, but certainly software necessary to business operation can be claimed (to a certain extent) as an itemized tax deduction. Ideally though, at this point (running a business) you should probably consider having an accountant prepare your taxes.
 
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directorik said:
More to the point; could a distributor bar the fina product from being released if (and I know this is an IF) the software you use was, in fact, pirated?
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There is certainly a moral argument that content created with pirated software should/could belong (at least in part) to the software company who owns the software. Now whether that moral argument is justified, or more to the point, whether it translates into a valid legal argument, I honestly don't know. While most countries in the world have signed up to the international copyright laws, there is quite a lot of variation in how those laws are interpreted, prosecuted and what punishments can be levied. In other words, I suspect that any specific answer you get to this question is likely to be applicable in only certain jurisdictions.

I would think that most distributors would steer well clear of any film which had any copyright questions hanging over it. If they had already acquired a film and then copyright issues arise I imagine they would take legal advice on whether to continue investing/distributing the film. I would also imagine they had clauses in their contracts with the film producers which protects them financially from any claims against the film, in the same way that production companies do with sub-contractors (like me!).

I don't personally know of any instances of a film being shelved or withdrawn due to software privacy.

G
 
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directorik said:
I understands that. A company (or even an individual) can get in trouble for having unlicensed software. So (as an example) an editor using a pirated copy of FCP could get into trouble.
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I know you already know that. That wasn't what I was getting at, what I was trying to illustrate is that buying software is (I assume) a form of copyright licensing and as far as I'm aware is therefore covered by the standard copyright clauses in a contract between the production company and sub-contractor, as I presume it is between a production company and a distributor. As I said though, I'm not a lawyer so I'm only speculating.

G
 
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I don't know the answer, though wouldn't it be similar to shooting in a public place without a permit. Wasn't there an answer that the film wouldn't get any hindrance from that situation, why would the software issue possibly get the same problem?
 
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AudioPostExpert said:
There is certainly a moral argument that content created with pirated software should/could belong (at least in part) to the software company who owns the software. Now whether that moral argument is justified, or more to the point, whether it translates into a valid legal argument, I honestly don't know.
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Not agreeing or disagreeing on the moral argument. But let's put it in more solid terms: If your DP is using a stolen T3i, can Canon claim any ownership of the finished film? IANAL, but my instinct tells me that would never stand up in a court of law.
 
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If men in black suits ever show up at your friends house....burn the house down just to be safe.

If they claim to be agents for xxx software company you will have burnt the evidence.

If they look at the fire now engulfing the house in surprise and explain that they simply came to discuss Jesus with you, then you will have learnt a fine lesson on how paranoia can be a dangerous thing.
 
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Dreadylocks said:
If your DP is using a stolen T3i, can Canon claim any ownership of the finished film? IANAL, but my instinct tells me that would never stand up in a court of law.
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When you buy a camera, you buy a piece of physical equipment which you own. When you buy software you are in effect buying a copyright license to use the software, you don't actually own anything.*IF* this software copyright license (or lack of one in the case of pirated software) is treated in law the same as other copyright infringement issues then distribution of the film can most definitely be affected. Copyright infringement or even just potential copyright infringement by not having all the necessary clearances is, I believe, a quite common cause of distributors not picking up indie films which they are otherwise interested in.

sfoster said:
The most that can happen is a fine.. or criminal charges. they can't own your product
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If (and it's a big "if" because I'm not a lawyer) software copyright is treated the same as other copyright, then absolutely they can "own your product". There have been high profile cases of copyright infringement where the copyright (ownership of the product) has been re-assigned from the creator of the product to the company whose copyright has been infringed.

In practise I don't know if this has ever happened (in the case of software piracy) or even if it could ever happen. But when you get into the fine detail of individual cases, copyright law is a complex area. It could be argued for example that a sub-contractor has sold a copyright or a license to exploit a copyright to the film's producers which the sub-contractor never legally owned in the first place (due to copyright infringement). In which case, the film's producers might have to negotiate a new contract with the actual/new copyright holder. Providing the producers had the usual copyright indemnity clauses in their contract with the sub-contractor then the sub-contractor would be liable for the legal fees and any other costs incurred in creating a new contract and in fulfilling the terms of that new contract. Here is an extract from an agreement I signed quite some time ago (as a composer) and which in my experience is entirely usual:

"the Services and the product of the Services, the Music and the Sound Recording shall be original to the composer and shall not infringe any right of copyright or any other right of any other nature of any person and shall not be obscene or defamatory of any person."

And:

"the Composer will indemnify the producers and keep the producers at all times fully indemnified from and against all actions proceedings claims demands costs (including without limitation the reasonable legal costs of the producers on a solicitor and own client basis) awards and damages howsoever arising directly or indirectly as a result of any breach or non-performance by the Composer of any of the Composer’s undertakings warranties or obligations under this Agreement"

G
 
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The only time I could see ownership being transferred in the context of software is if their software was an actual piece of your delivery product being sold.. but if you're making film you're not selling software
 
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APE, you're just making stuff up. Stop doing that. No one is checking any filmmakers for their software licences. That's not a thing, it doesn't happen. Stop with the scare tactics, it's pointless and nobody believes you.
 
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Cracker Funk said:
APE, you're just making stuff up. Stop doing that. No one is checking any filmmakers for their software licences.
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Sometimes CF you really can be a hypocrite! I've made nothing up in this thread but I've made it clear that I am making some inferences/assumptions. You on the other hand are completely making things up and not only are you making them up but what you are making up is completely and utterly false!! Here's an example:

Cracker Funk said:
Nobody is coming into your home to check that your software is legit. This isn't a thing that happens, not anywhere in the world.
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This is a made-up lie! Not only does it happen in quite a few countries around the world but it happens in your country! And, not only does it happen but it's resulted in a number of successful prosecutions against media content creators/companies!

Waves (one of the biggest manufacturers of audio software plugins) have successfully prosecuted a number of music/audio post studios for using cracked versions of their plugins. The case against Skyline Studios (NY) was interesting in the context of this thread because Skyline was found liable for copyright infringement and had to pay damages to Waves, even though the jury accepted that the infringement had taken place without Skyline's knowledge by an independent sub-contractor! Here is the full judgement and here's a quote from it:

"In order to police it's copyrights, Waves conducts investigations in which one of it's employees visits recording studios posing as someone interested in contracting for services offered by the studio. In the process of discussing the services available, the representative attempts to determine if the studio is utilizing Waves software without a proper license."

Waves have used this tactic against big commercial studios and small home type studios and have successfully brought prosecutions I've heard about in the UK, USA and France. There's probably more I haven't heard about and more still which were settled out of court.

So, you're the one making stuff up and you should "stop doing that". It IS a thing and it DOES happen! My (according to you) "scare tactics" have a basis in fact and are not pointless. What is pointless is your condescending and inaccurate contribution to this thread!

In answer to the OP's question:

cheeseandachallenge said:
If someone collaborating on your film (e.g. a composer, a vfx artist, an animator, an sound designer, etc) is using illegal software - can there be legal repercussions for me (director/producer)?
Click to expand...

Potentially, yes, there could be! However, it's a quite complex area because it involves copyright law. If you're making a lo/no budget film for film festivals I would think your chances of legal repercussions are close to non-existant but to be sure, have a contract with your collaborators (sub-contractors) with clauses which indemnify you against any copyright infringement they may engage in, like the clauses I posted previously. And, if you become aware that they are using illegal software (or any other copyright infringement), get them to buy it or dump them, because you could be deemed contributory to the infringement!

G
 
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AudioPostExpert said:
Copyright infringement or even just potential copyright infringement by not having all the necessary clearances is, I believe, a quite common cause of distributors not picking up indie films which they are otherwise interested in.
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That sounds like exactly the thing that E&O insurance covers... but has nothing to do with software used during pre/post production.
 
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Something tells me the OP won't be bringing their movie to an audio post studio. The OP was asking about getting into film festivals. And in that case, NOBODY EXISTS WHO IS CHECKING SOFTWARE RIGHTS.
 
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