First of all, hello! I'm new here. Let's get right to the point! I spent the summer with my cousins in the Bronx. Cursing is part of their vocabulary. They use it as humor also, which gave me an idea for a screenplay. Now..., do I stay true to the character, or is cursing frowned upon. Also, slang. How is that taken.
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Using curse words
- Thread starter dorio
- Start date
Absolutely. Character dialogue can be written in dialect sand using terrible
grammar.
Not the issue here. What interests me is the claim that the action lines
do not need to use proper grammar or even proper spelling. And that
a good screenplay is dependent on NOT using proper grammar.
You're stuck on semantics.
Proper grammar just comes naturally over time, as you clock up a few writing hours. As you learn to re read carefully, as you become inclined to redraft, as you write on a plan rather than just inspiration.
Focusing on grammar as the problem, neglects all of the other aspects that need to develop.
I'm getting a hot glue gun, a refrigerator box, and a hundred bags of Skittles.
See you guys necks weak with mi missthpelt opuss!
Exactly.
We rarely need "The perfect" guy, just a sensible guy, "I know THIS guy. He's a little... but otherwise solid", and that is good enough and no slam on him. Or her.
OMG.
I feel... something.
ACK!
GUH!!
ARRGH!
I'm so... disillusioned with the process, now.
I need to go watch some Stuart Smalley.
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I was a little late to the party. Hadn't finished reading the thread yet.
IMO, if you're going to try and sell a script or work with people serious about the craft, you're script should be formatted properly and action lines should be tight and grammatically correct. If it's a first draft, or if it's a script that you will make entirely yourself. Who cares? Like someone said, go ahead and write it in shorthand with crayons on a napkin.
This is a generalization and again, just my opinion, but the people I consider the best artists and craftspeople are the perfectionists. Those are the people I want to work with. Being a perfectionist doesn't mean you get it perfect the first time, in fact it usually means the opposite.
But I digress...
I think the best way to procede, for ANY new writer, is to learn the "rules" of screenwriting first. Then, after mastering them, experiment with when and where to bend/break them.
I've read many "professional" scripts in the course of teaching myself how to write, and I don't think I've seen any two of them with EXACTLY the same formatting. Most of them were close though...
I've read many "professional" scripts in the course of teaching myself how to write, and I don't think I've seen any two of them with EXACTLY the same formatting. Most of them were close though...
Tell ya what. I'm gonna go looking through the first pages of some of these and look for some bad vs. proper grammar.
http://www.imsdb.com/latest/
And then I'm going to rewrite some of those first pages with cursing and swearing and cussin' sprinkled amidst my FUBAR-grammar, post 'em in a couple days, and ya'll tell me if they look kosher.
FWIW, it has just occurred to me that perhaps while simply learning splellin' an' glamour may not have been a large impediment to me that actually it may be to others.
I also understand medical and layer schools fail out students that thought they wanted to practice medicine or law without having to actually understand it.
They "wanted" therefore they were "entitled".
WANT = ENTITLEMENT.
Yep.
That's how the world works.
Or at least it should.
Let's put my kid under an entitlement knife and then prosecute the entitlement surgeon with an entitlement district attorney.
Lettuce throw 'em in jail!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVNSQ72wvlc
http://www.imsdb.com/latest/
And then I'm going to rewrite some of those first pages with cursing and swearing and cussin' sprinkled amidst my FUBAR-grammar, post 'em in a couple days, and ya'll tell me if they look kosher.
FWIW, it has just occurred to me that perhaps while simply learning splellin' an' glamour may not have been a large impediment to me that actually it may be to others.
I also understand medical and layer schools fail out students that thought they wanted to practice medicine or law without having to actually understand it.
They "wanted" therefore they were "entitled".
WANT = ENTITLEMENT.
Yep.
That's how the world works.
Or at least it should.
Let's put my kid under an entitlement knife and then prosecute the entitlement surgeon with an entitlement district attorney.
Lettuce throw 'em in jail!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVNSQ72wvlc
BTW, Are you talking about like... high school kids or adults?
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Obviously I'm no expert, and I'm not going to speak for Maralyn. I've never sold anything. I've never made any money from shorts or videos of mine, won a small award, which I didn't even think I cared for. I've made some money only from some commercials work. That's my filmmaking background.
I just want to provide a general idea of where I'm coming from first. To me a movie is great, when I identify with and believe the story or characters. How it's done is of little consequence to me as a viewer, whether it was visual enough (voice over or not) or made with film or digital are things I generally don't think about when watching a film. Was it written with proper grammar or spelling is not something I'm thinking about as a viewer. And my approach to my own filmmaking is from the perspective of a viewer. Will I like this movie I'm trying to make? Am I interested in this story?
From a producer's perspective, grammar and spelling might be important. From a viewer's perspective, it's not. So it may be about grammar and words to the producer, but I can have a crap story with good grammar and spelling and lots of words. You can on the other hand, have a great story, with bad grammar and spelling and fewer words. So words and grammar and spelling do not a good story make, is what I'm saying. You can argue that, "yes, but you still need words." That's fine. But I'll say again, every story has words. Every story is not great. So words are not the determining factor on greatness. So words are tools, like paper and ink. One can tell a story with a picture without words, with just ink and paper.
I want to tell another story that Lawrence Bender tells of the Reservoir Dogs script sent to Harvey Keitel. He said it was typewritten, improperly formatted, and filled with so many spelling errors that Bender was embarrassed to send it. But send it he did, and we know the rest of the story.
The other thing I want to mention is the idea expressed by some that using curse words is lazy. I completely disagree. And I think Tarantino would probably agree that he wasn't being lazy when writing his scripts. I don't think Nicholas Pileggi, who was a journalist by profession and wrote goodfellas, beginning his career spending nights at the police station reporting on petty crime, would agree that he was being lazy, when wring "Wiseguy," the book that led to Goodfellas. But people say that "this is wrong," "that is lazy," as if there is some sort of empirical evidence to what they're saying. So therefore the clap and the cheers, when somebody says something suggesting that one really doesn't need ANYthing, including words for a script.
I don't need words. I need the story. I need the idea. I need words to express my ideas. But if the idea is bad, words, good grammar, proper spelling, etc., are useless. Again, that's why I clap. Because that's what I feel.
We've had this discussion on rules before and I think we are of differing opinions here. I continue to believe that most rules do not apply to me. I'm not coming from a conventional place. I cannot win the "conventional" fight. The competing forces are too powerful and will overwhelm me. So I must do it any way I can, that makes sense for my abilities and financial situation.
Now, if someone has good grammar and knows how to spell. Fine, they can tell their stories using proper English. But there are people who use internet English (use 'your' instead of you're, could of, should of, definatly, etc.) who might have a good story to tell. They don't need to learn to write "could've or could have" before sitting down to write their story. They should just go for it.
Sure if they want to have someone proofread something before they send it out, then great. But they don't need to know the proper grammar and proper spelling to express the story in their heads. Because it's not about the grammar and the spelling, or the words.
When it comes to directing, I've never directed somebody else's work (I'm about to). So when dealing with actors, I just explain to them what I think the characters are feeling or their state of mind as they are saying what they're saying. I don't know if it's a good enough technique, but so far it's the only way I know how to do things.
I wasn't trying to be clever with my
. I really feel strongly about not having to adhere to systems of doing things. I'll look at how other people do something. If I like it, I'll do it that way. If I don't like it, I won't do it that way. So if someone says "no, no, you MUST do it that way," I find it to be a ridiculous position.I don't know if I've answered your questions in this massive piece. But I just really wanted to give you a sense of where I was coming from, more so than addressing anything specific.
Hope I made some sense
Aveek
I don't agree with this 2 diminsional 3 dimensional business. Now you're talking like a film professor. Words can be more powerful sometimes than film. Because words let you imagine things limitlessly, where as the video may limt you to somebody else's boring imagination. Which is 2 dimensional and which is 3 dimensional is irrelevant to a good story. medium is not important. I can think of the Godfather as a book or a movie. But it's the story inside that attracts me to the Godfather. I like the different mediums for different reasons. But I like The Godfather for the story, not the medium.
Robert Rodriguez did it like that. Whether you like his films or not, the guy went out and made his first film without any knowledge of how things are done. You should see his script for El Mariachi. He got an hour and a half film from 45 pages because it wasn't correctly formatted in even the remotest of ways...
Aveek,
I don’t care how experienced you are or if you have sold a
screenplay. I am interested in your thoughts. Only one person here
has challenged an opinion based on experience selling a script - and
that was not me.
Also I am in no way discussing the finished product (the movie)
and the audience like it or not. We are talking about the screenplay.
Now I know that you and maralyn agree - you both feel how a writer
writes is not important. That spelling and grammar are essentially
meaningless and even harm a writer if they use them properly. And
that is what I asked.
This makes no sense to me. You need words to express your ideas to
others, yet you say you do not need words. Of course good grammar
and spelling does not make a bad idea or story good. I didn’t say
that - no one has said that, so this makes no sense to me.
As you say, “So words are tools, like paper and ink.” I do not understand
the resistance to use tools well. Striking a nail with the wrong end of the
hammer is less effective than using the correct end.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm glad you have found someone here who
shares your views.
If that is the most effective way to deliver the story
No, it's not meaningless. But it shouldn't stop me from sitting down and writing a story, because I don't know how to spell and I don't know formatting techniques. That's my point.
no, i don't believer proper use of the English language harms anybody.You're taking me too literally. Of course you need words. You need pages for a book. But you can also use a kindle and have no pages. You can say, but you still need electronic pages. And I can say I can have a string of words and no pages and we can have a continuous argument, that doesn't mean anything.
I'm trying to make a point. The point is that the screenplay (not the finished movie) is not about the proper use of words and formatting. It's about delivery. Do I get what the writer is saying. Usually I like a script by the first five pages, or I put it down by the first 5 (sometimes less) pages. I put it down not because of spelling mistakes or wrong words used, but because the author could not get through to me. I might trudge through terrible spelling and bad grammar on a different script, just because I was hooked by the dialog. what I'm trying to say is that ANY particular thing can attract me to a script, and then it's not going to matter what the words are, or what the formatting or the grammar is. If I'm attracted to the story and the way it's told, then that's it. Nothing else matters.
I have no resistance to using tools well. I actually love the English language written well. I have some favorite authors whose works I read again and again and again, just to stay in touch with the way they use words so precisely and perfectly, and the way I strive to. All I'm saying is that, if somebody doesn't know how to write properly, that should not disqualify that person's work, because it failed to meet some sort of spelling requirement, something easily corrected by a mindless computer. If he or she is a great storyteller, I don't understand why anything else matters.
Are you really glad
? Sounds like you're kidding.Anyway, don't feel bad for me. Nobody ever agrees with me on anything anyway. I'm usually shocked if they do. It's probably better for my health if everybody disagrees with me.
Cheers
Wow This thread has really drifted--from profanity to legibility.
If I am the director (MY camera, MY script, MY toys), I can pretty much make my script anything I want. And if you look at outlying directors, that's often what happens. And that's NOT BAD. Because in the end, the director has to waste his time telling actors line, how to deliver them, what he had in mind while looking over his crayon scribbles on the napkin. And it's his time ... well, it does irritate the actors and crew who have to wait on him (or her) ... to waste. Hopefully they get paid for it, or at least get lunch!
The script is a TOOL. It helps everyone who is NOT the creator. It let's all the other professionals know what to expect because it's in the common language (or format in this case). And, yes, the industry has migrated to making scripts more compact, but there is still the expectation when you send it out for someone else to direct, that it is legible--proper grammar and decent spelling. We all slip up on those, but when you need to keep guessing what someone means, it becomes TEDIOUS.
TEDIOUS is the worst thing you ever want to give a reader. Period! If you want it to get passed on to someone who has the power to make your movie, you need to be EXCITING, CLEAR, CONCISE, and NEAT.
Your first 10 pages are about all you'll get, if that much. Make them EXCITING. If it's not CLEAR immediately who, what, and where the action is going, you're rejected. If your descriptions and actions drift on languidly for paragraphs instead of CONCISE two or three lines, your script is toast. And sloppy scripts--I saw one with a PBJ stain--right out! Part of NEAT is formatting, grammar, and spelling. It's disrespectful of the reader's time. Unfortunately, neatness tends to reflect equally the writing style.
So if you aren't going through any readers, by all means break all the rules. From experience, I find that script sloppiness tends to spill over into directing sloppiness. But even as a personal exercise, I think it is important for directors to use good format. Again, not exception pristine perfect, but clearly thought out. There is a focus that comes in writing that translates into planning shots.
Scripts are about the carefully crafted organization of words to create a story. It is the architectural blueprint, it's 2D. However the director and other artists must make it 3D. Yes, a person can sketch an house, but somehow that sketch needs to be realized by someone with framing, carpentry, and a host of other skills. And the studios often come around to check that it meets "code".
I've taught first-timers. They need to learn basic structures and patterns first to GUIDE them, not CORRAL their imaginations. But we do them no service if we tell them there are no guidelines. They go merrily about and keep getting rejections with no understanding why. I do believe students learn better if they have some sense WHY the guideline is there. Then later they can choose to ignore it or challenge it. No one has said, don't use cursing. No one has said a script must be pristine (well, maybe Rayw
he's a tough reader). But how is the new writer supposed to know what to change in subsequent revisions if s/he's not told? It's not about dashing hopes but helping them be more successful when they send their hard work out to the real critics, who are less forgiving and seldom provide feedback.
I think the question of profanity was a reasonable one. The question has been approached from many angles. I agree that when first writing, you want to spit it out without any self-editing or concern about grammar/spelling/etc. However, many of the comments have been offered by others as guidance to what needs to be thought about in revisions after the 'creative dump' but before the final submission. And I've found the thread interesting.
If I am the director (MY camera, MY script, MY toys), I can pretty much make my script anything I want. And if you look at outlying directors, that's often what happens. And that's NOT BAD. Because in the end, the director has to waste his time telling actors line, how to deliver them, what he had in mind while looking over his crayon scribbles on the napkin. And it's his time ... well, it does irritate the actors and crew who have to wait on him (or her) ... to waste. Hopefully they get paid for it, or at least get lunch!
The script is a TOOL. It helps everyone who is NOT the creator. It let's all the other professionals know what to expect because it's in the common language (or format in this case). And, yes, the industry has migrated to making scripts more compact, but there is still the expectation when you send it out for someone else to direct, that it is legible--proper grammar and decent spelling. We all slip up on those, but when you need to keep guessing what someone means, it becomes TEDIOUS.
TEDIOUS is the worst thing you ever want to give a reader. Period! If you want it to get passed on to someone who has the power to make your movie, you need to be EXCITING, CLEAR, CONCISE, and NEAT.
Your first 10 pages are about all you'll get, if that much. Make them EXCITING. If it's not CLEAR immediately who, what, and where the action is going, you're rejected. If your descriptions and actions drift on languidly for paragraphs instead of CONCISE two or three lines, your script is toast. And sloppy scripts--I saw one with a PBJ stain--right out! Part of NEAT is formatting, grammar, and spelling. It's disrespectful of the reader's time. Unfortunately, neatness tends to reflect equally the writing style.
So if you aren't going through any readers, by all means break all the rules. From experience, I find that script sloppiness tends to spill over into directing sloppiness. But even as a personal exercise, I think it is important for directors to use good format. Again, not exception pristine perfect, but clearly thought out. There is a focus that comes in writing that translates into planning shots.
Scripts are about the carefully crafted organization of words to create a story. It is the architectural blueprint, it's 2D. However the director and other artists must make it 3D. Yes, a person can sketch an house, but somehow that sketch needs to be realized by someone with framing, carpentry, and a host of other skills. And the studios often come around to check that it meets "code".
I've taught first-timers. They need to learn basic structures and patterns first to GUIDE them, not CORRAL their imaginations. But we do them no service if we tell them there are no guidelines. They go merrily about and keep getting rejections with no understanding why. I do believe students learn better if they have some sense WHY the guideline is there. Then later they can choose to ignore it or challenge it. No one has said, don't use cursing. No one has said a script must be pristine (well, maybe Rayw
he's a tough reader). But how is the new writer supposed to know what to change in subsequent revisions if s/he's not told? It's not about dashing hopes but helping them be more successful when they send their hard work out to the real critics, who are less forgiving and seldom provide feedback.I think the question of profanity was a reasonable one. The question has been approached from many angles. I agree that when first writing, you want to spit it out without any self-editing or concern about grammar/spelling/etc. However, many of the comments have been offered by others as guidance to what needs to be thought about in revisions after the 'creative dump' but before the final submission. And I've found the thread interesting.
We're considering the difference between fine art - and - commercial art.
With fine art... you can paint whatever tooty-frooty thing you want.
If people like it - great.
If people don't - whatever.
With commercial art you kinda gotta work within several conventions of output medium, reproduction processes, and of course the almighty audience from which your paycheck comes from.
When writing as a writer director - do whatever you want.
Other professionals and semi-professionals who know what they SHOULD be looking at may smile politely, but screwwit. It's your show.
When writing as a spec screenwriter you gotta make other people happy.
Don't slow them down with Yoda-Spanglish.
There's... eff me. 110pages of this b!tch and I got a stack of others to read.
I gotta read twenty of these bastards a day.
I don't wanna have to rewrite in my head every other line.
I just ain't got time.
It's a lot like speed dating.
When you go out on a spec DATE I suggest you take a shower, shave, brush your teeth, wear clean clothes, don't stare at her boobies, have twenty intelligent subjects to discuss, eat with your mouth closed, tell her her hair looks nice because only metrosexuals notice how nice her shoes look.
(A sense of humor helps, too).
She probably hasn't got time to get to know the cool & wonderful "slob in his crib" that now sits before his computer.
Spec screenwriting - same thing.
EDIT: Spec screenplay writing isn't a foot race between you and one or two other competitors.
It's sixteen million sperms wiggling like h3ll after ONE egg.
And just like in HIGHLANDER... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2483/3826639950_c06758b452_o.gif
Yeah... I'm a real bastard.No one has said a script must be pristine (well, maybe Rayw
LOL!
YEAH!!! F#CK 'EM!
Just turn on the recorder and let that grand mal seizure just flooooowwwww.
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A point I got.
I wasn’t asking about your views on the finished movie. Nor did I
ask about the most effective way to deliver a story. Nor did I say
anything about a writer’s method. Or what a “page” is. I was very
specific: I asked about your views on the screenplay. Nothing more.
You have decided to make your point and not answer my question.
That’s fine.
damn you sound touchy this evening Rik.
Do you need words for a script? Yes.
Does that answer your question of why I found her sentence so awesome? I don't think so. With my point, all I was trying to do is explain to you why I liked that sentence so much.
And not answering your question is not personal. I usually go off in tangents. you'll know what I'm talking about once we meet
Alright. Good Evening all. I need to get back to writing.
Cheers,
Aveek
