Serious question, at some point each of us has to decide whether we've travelled the filmmaking path far enough and whether it's time to go do something else.

I guess I'm at that point. (Actually I'm not guessing, I actually know that I'm at that point)

So the qustion is, what would need to happen or not happen for you to decide to pack it all in and become an itinerant goat herder instead?

For me, well, I've invested ten years of my life, used every moment I had off work (when I worked for the man) and put every penny I had into filmmaking. In return for that investment, I've got a piece of paper that says I won a regional Royal Television Society Award, tapes of half a dozen short films (that I don't much like) and a digibeta copy of a feature film that currently lives in a box under my bed.

Up to this point the whole process has felt like the torment of Sisyphus; roll the rock up the hill, only to have it Wiley Coyote over you as it rolls back back down. Repeat that process for ten years and you start to get a bit jaded.

The truth is that maybe I'm just not good enough to suceed at this. I made a pretty decent feature film and that's an achievement it itself. I'm an OK writer, but Paul Schrader I'm not.

There is Daoist song that I think is very apt:

"Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream"

I think the message of that song is that you don't get much happiness if you continually row upstream.

Clive! I've never heard you so disparaged!
I've come across feelings like that as well- I'd suggest watching your first few shorts- ones where your crew was your friends, the purpose was fun, and the final product was so poorly planned it embarasses you to show it to people... In fact, I say you head out your door tonight, call up a few friends, and make a crappy DV short which you can send to a crappy festival!
(I hope this isn't IMDB's fault!)
I think you suffer from post-production-itis. Get outside and make a film- no script, no nothing (well, maybe a camera...)- just go out there film!

It's not hard to forget about how much fun filmmaking can be when budgets and production values and huge crews and dangerous formats get involved- I say, bullocks! Get out there, do it, and enjoy it, you maggot!
Oh sorry, a bit harsh... You know what I'm saying! Most people HAVE to do this because it's in thier heads that they have nothing else- but it can really be disparaging to see all the assholes and jerks getting breaks as time just leaves you behind.... well, screw that! Make up yer own new rules!

Have I been the least bit coherent... oh well.. there's always bagging groceries at the supermarket....

In the end you have to ask yourself...

"Do I feel lucky?"

After ten years, maybe you don't feel so lucky. Maybe all the heartache and suffering were for naught and you could have been happy doing something else this last decade. Maybe you're right, maybe going with the flow or just going along to get along is the way to true happiness.

But then again....

Maybe you're wrong. Maybe the last decade was a happy time because you were doing things that you loved doing even though it was hard. Maybe you are lucky and you are about to break through the sludge of obscurity and make a name for yourself.

It's your decision, by all means do what makes you feel best. But I have seen your talent and in my opinion, you are better than okay. And while I am stating my opinion, I don't think you should give up, because if you're not good enough to make it in this industry how in the world will I make it?

Poke

Is there a way you can remove the need for success (monetary or otherwise) from you quest for story telling? Then you can start following the stream again rather than struggling against it.

I hate to sound altruistic, but art in and of itself is a noble pursuit...starving artist and all that. I think all of us here would love to have the whole movie thing take wings, but I personally don't have any aspirations for mine other than to share stories with other people.

Maybe we can get the new distribution scene going and help get each other's movies going so we don't have to rely on the juggernaut of a movie industry that exists.

I hope you don't jump ship on the craft...but I do understand your frustration. I've been fixing computers for 15 years and hate it. I started out as an artist, but ended up fixing the tools instead of using them.

Thanks guys, but actually I've already decided to give up professional film making.

I may make another film, I may even write more screen plays, but I've given chasing a career. If I make another film I'm going to do it for the sheer fun of it.

But first I've some professional obligations to complete.

I think you are a wonderful artist and as Poke said, how can he (we) hope to make it if you don't. You have contributed so much to this forum that I can't imagine what it would be without you....No, I can, just like one of your favorite actors in one of the greatest movies...Jimmy Stewart and Wonderful Life. Sorry to be sickly sappy, but it's true, what would Indietalk and film be without you? :(

I can't count the number of time I've given up but it has always been a temporary solution to other problems.

I don't know if movie making is art or not but if you are an artist, you will always find a way to express yourself whether it's through film making or some other way. You see; we can't help who we are....

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

:( Clive I hope we see you again soon or at least stay in touch

Good luck with whatever you do! - Trevor

...dearest Clive;

...are you sure you are not just depressed? Not in the clinical sense, but in the 'what the hell am I doing with my life' sense? You have had 10 years pursuing your filmmaking dream? How about those of us, myself in particular, who have spent 10+ years doing something that did not include dreaming? You had the nerve to get out there and you better believe I have all the respect in the world for people who do or have done that.

...I agree that it is a professional hazard to become jaded, believe me I know. But as some others have already posted, maybe you need it to become fun again and not a "JOB". This isn't really supposed to be 'work'. Filmmaking is supposed to be a labor of love. If it isn't for you, try to find a way to make it so if you can.

...if you read my 'I'm back' post, there are so many things that went wrong that it would be easy for me to just stop, but I still want to do this filmmaking thing more than anything. And so did you or else you would not have spent your 10 years doing it.

...if you are going to stop, and notice I didn't say quit, then it is no longer a JOB. Make it fun for yourself again and maybe you can begin to love it again. Maybe it won't be full time or your main source of income, but maybe it can be something that you do for nothing more than the sheer joy of creating somethng...

--spinner :cool:

Serious question, at some point each of us has to decide whether we've travelled the filmmaking path far enough and whether it's time to go do something else.

I guess I'm at that point. (Actually I'm not guessing, I actually know that I'm at that point)

So the qustion is, what would need to happen or not happen for you to decide to pack it all in and become an itinerant goat herder instead?

For me, well, I've invested ten years of my life, used every moment I had off work (when I worked for the man) and put every penny I had into filmmaking. In return for that investment, I've got a piece of paper that says I won a regional Royal Television Society Award, tapes of half a dozen short films (that I don't much like) and a digibeta copy of a feature film that currently lives in a box under my bed.

Up to this point the whole process has felt like the torment of Sisyphus; roll the rock up the hill, only to have it Wiley Coyote over you as it rolls back back down. Repeat that process for ten years and you start to get a bit jaded.

The truth is that maybe I'm just not good enough to suceed at this. I made a pretty decent feature film and that's an achievement it itself. I'm an OK writer, but Paul Schrader I'm not.

There is Daoist song that I think is very apt:

"Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream"

I think the message of that song is that you don't get much happiness if you continually row upstream.Hey, I hear ya...

I keep telling myself that I want to be a filmmaker... This screenwriting thing was simply a plan to break into the business so that I could eventually:

a) Make enough money to make my own films with professional production values
b) Keep writing screenplays till someone actually lets me direct a film

I started this process over 10 years ago but have only REALLY, TRULY digging in and learning the craft of screenwriting over the last 4 years...

I finally realized that my "shit" had to be a thousand percent better than the competition... Additionally, after making a few shorts and a half a feature, I also realized that it is much harder to compete with a feature than it is with a screenplay.

I never once have told myself that I was in this for fun... My goal has ALWAYS been to get into the business so I could eventually do my own thing.

Now here's the bottom line...

It wasn't until I finally sat down and realized that all the crap I had written PRIOR to the script I recently sold simply wasn't high enough concept.

That thousand percent better isn't just the screenplay but the concept as well...

So what does all this have to do with you?

Here's my take...

You have already proven that you can make films and write screenplays and by your own writing, it seems that you've been mainly interested in Avant-Garde and experimental stuff when you can clearly compete with the likes of Hollywood...

It seems to me that that type of path is also a thousand percent more difficult than the mainstream path. I know I have a couple of very quirky film ideas rolling around in my head but I also know that before I can get people to pay me to make something like BRINGING OUT THE DEAD, I'm going to have to get them to pay me to make something like... Well, something mainstream. LOL.

I for one would much rather see you try your efforts in the mainstream arena before I would want to see you selling used cars... LOL. In other words, stay in the biz instead of becoming a citizen.

Wouldn't they both take just about the same amount of time and effort to figure out? Probably not for you actually since you already know so much about it but I guess what I am asking is this...

Have you ever focused on the mainstream? And if so, for how long?

Having said all of that...

If you're just totally burned out and bummed out, I understand... Just had to get my 2 cents in there...

GOOD LUCK NO MATTER WHAT YOUR DECISION.

filmy

Clive,
That is a very serious question. I've only briefly thought of it before. To be honest I hope I will never have to find an answer to that.

I hope your decision is not permanent. You are something of a rolemodel on this site (trust me).

Maybe this will cheer you up a bit.
Sometime in the future I was thinking of contacting your production company in regards to a 'coming of age' film to be filmed in Romania. You can't quit now!

Also, for me, when I'm feeling "blue" (I've never used that expression before) a change in scenery does me quite well. If I were you, I would take some 'time off' (or spend some time alone) if possible. Which reminds me, next time you're in Los Angeles/So. Cal, let me know!

PS: How does your wife feel about this?

Thanks guys. I do appreciate everything that everyone has said.

I'm taking a little bit of time away from thinking about the industry and my relationship with it.

For the last ten years it's been all I've done and there are other factes to who I am as a person which I've ignored. I stopped singing with my band, stopped doing stand up comedy, I stopped teaching Tai Chi, all to make films.

At the very least I've got to take a step back and remember why I got into this in the first place. I also can't base my family's entire financial security on the possibility that someone might show interest in one of my screenplays. There has to be a little more security in my life.

I've got another screenplay that has to be written, I'll write it and put it out on inktips and script pimp, then I'll decide what I'm going to do next.

In the meantime I'm concentrating on finding a way of making a living that works for me, then perhaps I can look at the film industry again.

Sometime in the future I was thinking of contacting your production company in regards to a 'coming of age' film to be filmed in Romania. You can't quit now!

I'd still be more than happy to help out with contacts and things for any European production, and I'd also ask you whether it has to be Romania, as Zagreb in Croatia is a very interesting place to film and has the same feel. I have excellent contacts there. email me when you want to discuss this.

You see, the great thing about giving up my career in film is I can now look at a request like this without having to worry about the busienss side of it, I can just help someone out for the love of it.

And anyway, I've already bought my official goat herder hat.

Time is odd. I feel like I wrote this thread months ago, but actually it's only last week.

I wanted to thank everyone who e-mailed me and encouraged me to stay in the industry.

A week of looking at other options for making a living have seen me apply for a job as an education and outreach officer for our local arthouse cinema and a new commission to do a video project.

More importantly I've been reading my last screenplay "True" and have come to a number of conclusions:

1) I know how to write a screenplay
2) I know how to shoot that film
3) I don't see myself giving up writing anytime before hell freezes over.

With this in mind I'm now working on the following basis

a) I have to find a way of making a living that I can rely on to put food on the table
b) I'm going to just chip away at screenwriting (I've a ten year Script Pimp account and a script, I may as well use it)
c) As and when I make any money from a screenplay, I'll invest it back into a production of my own and start calling myself a screenwriter again.

Cheers

Glad to hear it Clive. Sounds like a reasonable plan...one you can live with! Good luck!!!!

...good for you, Clive. I would hate to see you leave 'the biz'....

--spinner :cool:

Sometimes in life things get mundane and the feeling of "Where am I going?" comes up. I guess it's when there is a 5 way fork in the road and it's hard to figure out which way to go. I was there a few years ago and that brought me here, to filmmaking and IndieTalk. I was doing too much and loved what I was doing but it was too much. I decided that I had to focus and get more streamlined. I decided to always move forward. Every step I take moves me forward.
I thought I wanted to be an editor but now, I'm more into VFX and that's where I'm headed now.

So take a road that moves you forward.

I'm glad things are beginning to balance out for you Clive, and you're feeling more positive about the future. You never know what your 'goat-herd' job will lead to, or what opportunites might open up for you. Sometimes what seems like a pile of ka-ka to you now, actually turns out to be a blessing in disguise somewhere else down the track. I also believe you already know in your heart of hearts, you will be making more films.

S.M

i don't know why, but it seems this is the 'season' of filmmakers going insane or depress, I've met a few whom are having the similar concern Clive is going through, including myself... There's day I just don't want to do anything (while piling up some work I have to finish to get paid)... Many times, I just want to quick this all and change a new profession (IT) so I can just regularly get a pay check instead of going out there sell sell sell...

Clive, keep your spirit going I think reading your own stuff at times will help re-inspire you to move on without killing the dream.

Johnny

Clive I gotta say that ten years is really nothing in the film industry. I've been doing this for thirteen years and still haven't gotten my big break. If filmmaking was easy I think everyone would do it. Part of the fun of making it and getting to the point where you can live off your love of film is the ride. Don't look at what you don't have, our society makes us do that already, look at what you have accomplished. Enjoy the the fact that you have put forth an effort to follow your dreams and aspirations. Most people go through life being complacent and never have the luxury of following any dreams. That fact that your able to even say I don't know whether I can go on making films or not is a luxury for you whether you realize it or not. This is a tough industry and it's not going to just happen for you, you have to make it happen. It is a real waste for any artist to say I'm packing it up hitten the high road. I think that you now realize that giving up won't get you there and that you'll be even more depressed at that fact if you did.

For myself I lost a huge national television show contract and was forced to decide how the hell I was going to be able to keep my business going. Bad business on my part but there was nothing I could do. I ended up having to go back to cooking part time(what I was doing throughout film school) and work full time during the day trying to keep my shop open. I thought about giving up...it was the worst feeling I've ever had. I felt like I was killing off a piece of myself. But I didn't and now I have a couple television shows in the works and a feature film for next fall. Things happen for a reason. Don't give up and don't say you can't.

Clive,

Making it in the movie business is tough. It takes three things: talent, patience and luck. The first two make the last one, but there's no timetable on luck. For some it happens in days or months and others it's years or even decades.

I took a break from filmmaking (ok, not a fulltime break, I did shoot one feature during my break) for two years when I took time off, moved back to Ohio for family reasons. I ended up teaching video production and found it very rewarding, but something said come back to filmmaking, so I moved back to LA. I was geared up to make movies, but the big project I came back to shoot was pulled out of my hands (a long story.) I was throw out of wack. The next year was tough. Then at the start of this year I was up for a $800,000 movie. After two months of heavy pre-production, the whole thing went belly up. There was no money. I had $8000 worth of rubber checks written to me. I was ready to pack it in, but got an offer to shoot a micro budget horror feature. Then I ended up shooting 6 features (3 on DV, 1 on Super-16, 1 on HD and the last one on 35mm) in the last 8 months.

So life sounds great, but at the end of all that work, I'm still not where I'd like to be money wise. Everyday I ask myself what the hell am I doing? I love the work, but wonder when I'll be financially sound. I'm nearing 20 years in the biz with over 20 features and numerous other credits. Some days I think I shoot because I don't know how to do anything else, but I know that's not true.

There are lots of options for you and me. If you need a break, I say take it, but don't make it a permenant change yet. Take some time to taste different things. If they please you more than filmmaking, then you may have your answer, but if you're still hungry for filmmaking, then you have to make a tough call or maybe you can find way to still make movies and make a living. Nobody can make that decision for you.

Happy travels on whatever road you choose.

Scott

You guys are right. This is a tough business and also you never know when things are going to change either for the better or for the worst.

Personally, this year has been tough. With No Place not selling or even picking up a sales agent yet, the investment that I put into that now appears unlikely to bring any return. This is a situation I could have lived more easily if the selling of the film was in my hands and my responsibility, but with the breakup of my business partnership, the film remained in the hands of my ex-business partner. I not only have no control over what happens to my film, I'm also not informed as to the film's progress or what's being done about selling it. This film, if sold, owes me nearly $100,000 in ROI and defered payments.

With my business partnership dissolved this year I've had to start from scratch with all my capital tied up in No Place, $200,000 worth of debt and no income. I've picked up some work this year, but not enough and so last month I effectively had to go bankrupt in order to clear the debts. This involved selling my home and pretty everyhting else I had to get the debtors off my back. Something that has taken all year to achieve.

Don't get me wrong, I've made some bad business decisions and as a result am paying the price. I'm not whinging, I'm just saying that as it stands right now I've got no capital to fund another production, not even a camcorder movie. For the last year I haven't even have the funds to get an NTSC conversion of my digibeta tape so I could send it out as showreel material in the States.

I learned a lot making No Place, but it's been an expensive education. The thing that's annoying me is that even before we made it I knew that from a business point of view it didn't make sense. I knew that a no name, mid budget, art house drama was going to be a nightmare to sell. And yet I still alllowed myself to be talked into it.

I think it's important that people understand that I'm not depressed; not in the least. I'm just taking stock of my business and saying "Hey, this isn't working financially, I need to do something else." Now whatever that somehting else is is either going to be a "working for the man, food on the table job" or maybe a completely new direction. I don't know.

Anyhow, enough. Thanks for all the input.