Filming in Super 8mm...

Robert · Oct 12, 2005

Hey everyone! Here's my situation. I'm helping a friend put together a short. The short is supposed to look like it was filmed in the late 60's-early 70's. Originally, we were looking at 16mm, but our budget would be very strained. So, we are now considering 8mm.

Here now are ten newbie questions from a guy (me) who doesn't know a whole lot about filming:

1) Buy or rent a camera? We are looking at shooting for only 4-5 days... but those days may be spread out over many weeks.

2) Good place to buy/rent?

3) What's a good camera? Any particular things I should look out for when buying/renting?

4) What would be a good film type for that aged 60's film look?

5) Good place to buy film?

6) What does the film cost?

7) Should sound just be captured with separate equiptment and joined with the film in editing? Any particular compatibility issues I should know about?

8) Any recommendations for good places to get the film processed? What's the cost?

9) In regards to editing, is it best to have the process lab give it back to us digitally?

10) What format woudl be best to have the film be in for digital editing?

Thanks to anyone who can provide me with the info!!

-Robert

Herb Montes · Oct 12, 2005

1) Buy or rent a camera? We are looking at shooting for only 4-5 days... but those days may be spread out over many weeks.

For the look you're wanting you will probably want to shoot on Kodachrome. Since it is no longer available in Super 8mm you're limited to regular 8mm.

2) Good place to buy/rent?

If going with regular 8mm you can find good ones on eBay. I suggest a Bolex model like a P1 or a K1. For the ultimate regular 8mm camera look for a H8Rex. These will take 100' spools for a long filming time compared to the 25' spools most regular 8mm cameras used.

3) What's a good camera? Any particular things I should look out for when buying/renting?

In regular 8mm, Bolex, Canon or Yashica.

4) What would be a good film type for that aged 60's film look?

Kodachrome.

5) Good place to buy film?

From John Schwind at International Film: http://members.aol.com/Super8mm/JohnSchwind.html

6) What does the film cost?

Cinechrome (Kodachrome) about $14 a 25' spool, $21 with processing. $40 for a 100' spool without processing.

7) Should sound just be captured with separate equiptment and joined with the film in editing? Any

particular compatibility issues I should know about?

Yes.

8) Any recommendations for good places to get the film processed? What's the cost?

Dwayne's is the only place to get Kodachrome processed: http://k-14movies.com/

9) In regards to editing, is it best to have the process lab give it back to us digitally?

I don't know if Dwayne's does. Bono Labs do offer transfers to a hard drive but they don't do Kodachrome.

Zensteve · Oct 12, 2005

'sup, good Robert! :cool:

I'll take a crack at your Qs.

1) Buy or rent a camera? We are looking at shooting for only 4-5 days... but those days may be spread out over many weeks.

I'd say buy. If you were doing it over a single weekend, rent. Since you're filming off & on, all the individual rentals will quickly cost more than finding a sync-camera of your own.

3) What's a good camera? Any particular things I should look out for when buying/renting?

I'm not sure on exact models to recommend, but since you are filming sound as well you'll want a crystal-sync'd camera. Some cameras can be converted to sync; others can't. Try to find one that has already been converted.

4) What would be a good film type for that aged 60's film look?

Kodachrome K-40 has been discontinued, but Kodak might still be selling the remainder of their stock. The replacement is the Ektachrome, which is another reversal film that looks pretty unique.

5) Good place to buy film?

Straight from Kodak

6) What does the film cost?

Varies. K-40 was $10.50 per 50' cartridge from Kodak, while it was still being made. No idea on the rest.

7) Should sound just be captured with separate equiptment and joined with the film in editing? Any particular compatibility issues I should know about?

Sound must be captured seperately. It gets married up to your digitised film. If your camera wasn't "sync", after about 5 seconds you'll have what looks like a badly dubbed kung-fu flick.

8) Any recommendations for good places to get the film processed? What's the cost?

For k-40 & Ektachrome: www.k-14movies.com
For b/w reversal: www.yalefilmandvideo.com

Yale's not the cheapest, but I like 'em.

Prices for it all on the respective sites.

9) In regards to editing, is it best to have the process lab give it back to us digitally?

Depends if the processing lab actually does telecine, too. The k-14movies.com only develops film, and that's it. Some labs do it all. At any rate, you'll have to have it transferred to video at some point.

10) What format woudl be best to have the film be in for digital editing?

I go straight to mini-DV. If you need a better format, you can get Beta/SP as well as a simaltaneous mini-DV tape. That way you can edit on the mini-DV and export an EDL. With the EDL, anyone with a beta-deck can quickly and automagically generate an edit from the beta/sp.

Phew!

Robert · Oct 12, 2005

Herb and Steve, thanks so much, you guys rock! You've both given me a lot to think about and sites to check out.

A couple more quick follow up questions:

11)What is the specific difference between 8mm and Super8mm?

12) If I wanted to shoot in Super8mm, and I could not find Kodachrome stock, could another stock be made to look old in editing? I know probably anything is possible in regards to SFX, but I was just wondering if it could be made to look real/natural?

13) What is the difference between reversal and regular film?

Thanks again, and sorry for all the newbie questions :blush:

-Robert

Zensteve · Oct 12, 2005

11)What is the specific difference between 8mm and Super8mm?

Super-8 comes in handy cartridges that can be changed in daylight... err... aside from that, there's probably a bunch of other differences, but I have no idea what they would be.

12) If I wanted to shoot in Super8mm, and I could not find Kodachrome stock, could another stock be made to look old in editing? I know probably anything is possible in regards to SFX, but I was just wondering if it could be made to look real/natural?

There's all kinds of software available to give video "that film look", so I imagine there would be tools available for what you need.

Try the Ektachrome, though. Heck even the non-reversal film stocks will "older" than straight video.

13) What is the difference between reversal and regular film?

Reversal film, when developed, can be plopped straight into a projector and viewed.

Non-reversals ("positive" film stocks), when developed are the opposite colours. (Similar to b/w negatives, where white is black... and black is white... except in colour) If you plop that into a projector, be sure to drop some LSD first to appreciate what you see.

If you use those film stocks, the change to a useable image happens when doing the transfer to video. It's an additional step in the process.

Robert · Oct 12, 2005

I'm slowly beginning to underdstand this stuff

Thanks again, Steve!

Will Vincent · Oct 13, 2005

There's a difference in image size between super8 and regular 8 too. The actual width of the stock is the same, but with super8, there are only sprocket holes on one edge, with the picture extending to the other edge. With regular 8, there are sprocket holes on both edges, thereby giving a much smaller image area.

The difference between reversal and "regular" film is the same as the difference between your every day run of the mill photo film (the stuff they carry at every gas station and whatnot) and slide film.

Slide film is == reversal, it produces a positive image of the photographed material by re-exposing the negative captured onto the same piece of celluloid. "regular" (negative) film is just the opposite. It produces a negative image on the celluloid, which can then either be further processed to make a positive 'print' (much like getting your photos developed at the local quick-e-mart, but onto film stock instead of paper) or sent through a telecine machine and digitally changed into a positive video image...

The latter option is how most people do their editing, and if they want a finished 'film' version they will send an edit descision list to their negative cutter who cuts up and splices together the negatives before a positive print is made. That means, no titles are added on your editing program, no CG effects are added, etc.. because the only thing the cutter will have to use is the original negative. Titles and whatnot would be added later, as well as color correction being done seperately too.

Probably a lot more info than you needed, but it's fun stuff to know.

Robert · Oct 13, 2005

Thanks for the information, Will. I;m interested in learning everything I can

Btw, do you know when Super8mm film was made publicly available?

Robert · Oct 13, 2005

Well, I've been looking at super8mm cameras on eBay, and I notice that most of them are quite old and seem to come from Russia or Europe. Why is that?

I actually don't mind using an old camera (as long as it works) since we're shooting a supposedly old film, but I am hesitant about buying something from overseas.

Also, I've been looking for one that has a "crystal-sync motor" as suggested, but none of them mention it. Is there another name for this, or is the crystal-sync motor only on the high end/newer models?

Speaking of costs, what's a good price to pay? Some are as cheap as $40 while others are well into the hundreds!

Thanks,

Robert

scottspears · Oct 13, 2005

Go the Super-8 route and buy a camera off Ebay. Good camares: Canon, Nizo, Chinon, Bauer, Bealieau and some others I can't think of right now.

Super-8 was introduced in 1965. Here's a link to Kodak's history of Super-8: Kodak Super-8 History

Scott

Robert · Oct 13, 2005

BTW, I notice that there are some super8mm cameras that capture sound (such as the Canon 514 XL-S). How is that? Does that lessen the filmed image size? Also, is the sound quality any good?

Zensteve · Oct 13, 2005

Kodak stopped making S8 stock with a soundstripe back in the 90's. You have no choice but to record sound on an external device.

Apparently getting a sound-capable camera is still a good idea, though. I've heard that those cameras tend to operate much quieter, meaning less noise to get picked up by the mic.

Robert · Oct 13, 2005

Zensteve said:
Kodak stopped making S8 stock with a soundstripe back in the 90's. You have no choice but to record sound on an external device.

Apparently getting a sound-capable camera is still a good idea, though. I've heard that those cameras tend to operate much quieter, meaning less noise to get picked up by the mic.

But the mechanics of a sound camera won't effect the film if it's a silent film? Meaning, the camera isn't going to "mark up" space on the film strip (for the sound recording) regardless of whether sound is being recorded or not, right?

indietalk · Oct 13, 2005

No, it doesn't pass over the magnetic head.

Robert · Oct 13, 2005

indietalk said:
No, it doesn't pass over the magnetic head.

Cool. Thanks!

Herb Montes · Oct 13, 2005

First to clarify about the difference between 8mm and Super 8mm. 8mm evolved from 16mm where Kodak added an extra set of sprocket holes. The film comes 16mm wide and you run it through the camera twice, flipping the spool over after the first side is exposed. When processed the film is slit to 8mm wide and the ends spliced at the lab. A 25' double-8mm spool will yield 50' of film.

Super 8mm came out in the early 1960's and what Kodak did was make the sprocket holes smaller thus increasing the image area. They also provided the film in easy load cartridges. At about the same time Fuji came out with their Single 8mm formatt which used the same sprocket holes but on polyester film base.

Before the advent of Super 8mm, Bolex produced a double regular 8mm version of their venerable H16 camera. This could take 100' spools of double 8mm film which when processed and slit resulted in 200' of movie. The top end model like the H8Rex could take the crystal sync motors. Later when double Super 8mm film stock was made available these H8Rex cameras were modified for double Super 8mm.

Kodachrome is still being made in 16mm and on special order in double regular 8mm. Kodak no longer makes it for Super 8mm cartridges. They are producing their color negative stocks as well as a new reversal stock for Super 8mm. You can learn more at the Filmshooting forum where most 8mm filmmakers are.

http://www.filmshooting.com/

You can also find good deals on 8mm cameras in their classified section.

Robert · Oct 14, 2005

Herb, thanks for the added info

Filming in Super 8mm...

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