Cinematographer here,tired of pigf**k productions

jaxshooter · Sep 30, 2005

I'm a cinematographer,made a living for myself mostly with news and commercials over the years.Every so often I get involved in someone's indie film and here's what usually happens.1)It loses funding and runs out of money and if it's ever completed,I never see the completed film or even get footage from the film to use in a demo reel, or 2)It never gets off the ground.

I'm 45 and rapidly approaching 50 and the older I get,the less enthused I get about someone with a dream and no money.I'm cool with low or deferred payments,I expect that on an indie but to never get off the ground or never get completed is not something I have time or patience for.I'm toying with the idea of producing/directing something myself,but I'm not really stoked about directing or producing and I'm no businessman.

I want to talk to some of you folks out there who are successfully getting these projects done and even seeing a profit.How do you guys do it?Except for a few in my neck of the woods,the majority of people calling themselves "filmmakers" are wannabes that couldn't direct an actor to the men's room or produce a turd with a pound of Exlax.

scottspears · Oct 1, 2005

I feel your pain. It's tough finding people who have the stuff to get things done. I guess you have to learn to read people and know who's serious and can get it done and who can't. I tell everybody right upfront that my rule is "I'll believe it when I'm standing on the set and my first check has cleared the bank." Even then, I've been 1 day away and seen an $800,000 movie evaporate before my eyes leaving me with lots of bounced checks. (That was with a producer I've know for years and it just went bad, but they should have pulled the plug much earlier.)

I live in LA and have many more projects come up and now have a network of folks I know and trust. Outside of LA and NYC, life gets harder. It's so much harder to get money, good crew and cast. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible because I just did two features in the mid-west with good results.

My advice to you start looking for a serious partner to be the director because if you're not stoked about the job it will just be painful for you. Take your time finding this person and then try to get a project going. Think of it as a marriage and remember to get things in writing.

Good luck.

Scott

LOGAN L Productions · Oct 1, 2005

I just want to point out that your colorful use of the language would make me think you're younger than you are. It's a good thing. "...couldn't produce a turd with a pound of Exlax." haha

Anyway, my partners and I are doing pre for our first feature. It is taking forever because we want the script to be air tight. We haven't produced a film that ended up unfinished since we began, and I have a friend who finished a great feature recently...so we're out there...

WideShot · Oct 1, 2005

Scott has great advice. And this is precisely why I pay my crew and cast weekly and in some cases daily. It may not be much but then again in a lot of cases it really doesn't take much cash to make the world go round for a lot of people. And it keeps us all in the game. Of course some filmmakers are going to make Braveheart with $2k and aren't figuring on both paying AND feeding the cast and crew, and this is exactly the attitude that arises. It also doesn't suprise me you've seen your share of directors who couldn't direct. Usually this doesn't upset me because I'm still getting paid on a set, so I dont take it so personal. If I was backend only, I would certainly be concerned.

As I said, Scott has the right idea. Find someone who truly knows what they are doing and attempt to form a partnership of some type (not so formally but a collaborative effort). You talk about dozens of films youve worked on and dozens of filmmakers you've worked with who were dissapointments. It only takes ONE who knows what they are doing and want to join forces with your expertise to go to the next level, and then there is not much looking back. A LOT of directors coming up through the ranks make a visually appealing film that garners some success and they stick with the DP who got them there.

Anyway, best of luck to you, if I was anywhere near you Id be interested in meeting with you.

jaxshooter · Oct 1, 2005

Thanks guys.It is VERY hard to find anything worth time and effort outside of LA or NYC,which makes sense really,if you want to build cars you go to Detroit.

I still find alot of optamistic attitudes about DV originated films being the wave of the indie revolution,which is fine,however I 've also seen my share of ignorant attitudes about same.A couple of years ago I was asked to work on a DVCAM originated feature,yet when I met the producer/director and asked about lighting and grip equipment,I was told,"This is the new DV video equipment,you don't need lights".I bowed out of that one.

Yet in all fairness,I know a couple of folks in my home town who have completed a few Indie films.Two of which I couldn't watch all the through, urban ethnic comedy,this aging hippie white boy didn't get it,yet I was told the filmmakers DID turn something resembling profit.The thrid one was religious in nature,pretty well done,original music and such.My only concern with the third one was it being such a specialized venue (churches,Christian book and video stores)profit,if any,would be slow in coming and very small.So it's not all bad,there's some hope there.

Spatula · Oct 1, 2005

I hear you Jax... so many people talking about projects... not enough DOING..

And profit!?! HA! That is the impossible dream, my friend.

I'm hoping that within 3 more shorts I can start paying crew and cast... and feeding them!

There are some very good filmmakers here, actually. Keep browsing the boards, check out the screening room, and you'll find some people who really have thier stuff together in there.

jaxshooter · Oct 1, 2005

I finally got to see a DVD copy of the film I bowed out on.It was painful to watch.Not a single decent shot in the film and very little intelligible dialogue.I knew there would be trouble when the producer/director showed me the camera (a prosumer DVCAM Sony,forget the model number but it was around the 2500 dollar range) and informed me that that camera was the same model Lucas used to shoot the recent Star Wars movies.It's one thing to be ignorant,it's another thing to proclaim the ignorance out loud an argue with people who know better.

spinner · Oct 2, 2005

jaxshooter said:
Except for a few in my neck of the woods,the majority of people calling themselves "filmmakers" are wannabes that couldn't direct an actor to the men's room or produce a turd with a pound of Exlax.

...

...oh, I needed that one today!!

I knew there would be trouble when the producer/director showed me the camera (a prosumer DVCAM Sony,forget the model number but it was around the 2500 dollar range) and informed me that that camera was the same model Lucas used to shoot the recent Star Wars movies.

...if you are in television news, then you know that its not the camera, its the OPERATOR :hmm:

It is VERY hard to find anything worth time and effort outside of LA or NYC,which makes sense really,if you want to build cars you go to Detroit.

...just for the record, there is more video coming out of the midwest, yes including Detroit, than there is in any other part of the country. Corporate video may not be movies in the biblical sense

but it is video and it does need good quality crew. You have to know how to compose a shot if you ever want to do any kind of camera work for corporate or for movies. If you can't find good crew in the midwest, you ain't lookin'.

...I would guess that the hard part once you begin a production project is to keep it going. I hope I can do that with my project :yes:

EDIT:..and Jax?, you're a photog, I know a photog when I see one, er....read one, uh, you know what I mean....

--spinner :cool:

sonnyboo · Oct 2, 2005

"I want to direct a movie, and I'm really excited... all I need is money." sums up 98% of all filmmaker wannabe's. Everyone wants to direct, no one knows anything about the "business" half of the "movie business" and that's the part that gets people paid and the movies off the ground to finished.

jaxshooter · Oct 2, 2005

..".if you are in television news, then you know that its not the camera, its the OPERATOR :hmm:

"

Oh yeah this is true up to a point.I doubt very seriously I could compete in news if I was shooting with an outdated consumer tube camera and 3/4 inch recorder.My point in mentioning the camera was the guy who called himself an "experienced producer/director" was trying to tell me that his prosumer camera was the same type of camera used in Star Wars.You're right about the fact a decent shooter can make a good picture with just about anything,yet the standard definition NTSC signal coming out of a prosumer camera is not the same as the High Definition signal coming out of the Sony F9's used in Star Wars. My point was that this guy was not only showing his ignorance,he was practically proud of it.

..".just for the record, there is more video coming out of the midwest, yes including Detroit, than there is in any other part of the country. Corporate video may not be movies in the biblical sense

but it is video and it does need good quality crew. You have to know how to compose a shot if you ever want to do any kind of camera work for corporate or for movies. If you can't find good crew in the midwest, you ain't lookin'."

You lost me there,bro.My mention of Detroit was allegorical.The center of movie production is LA.Television mecca is NYC,music-Nashville..see what I'm saying?Sure you can get a good video crew out of almost anywhere.I know some really awesome camera people,gaffers,audio people right in my home town.Yet the center of the film industry is still LA and will probably always be so.Unless California slides into the Pacific like the doomsayers say it will.
BTW,I've worked in corporate video and have done some cool stuff.It's like anything else,you get a decent budget and if the people hiring you know what they want and what they're doing,you can get some really high end production corporate videos worthy of network quality broadcast,yet the problem we have here in NE Florida with corporate stuff is that they don't want to spend alot of money on it,so more often than not,the videographer who aspires to do some decent corporate work in my area,will get a lot of IMAG shoots and talking head videos.I was video production manager at a corporate AV presentation company here a few years ago.Economic cutbacks are a bitch for anyone.

..".I would guess that the hard part once you begin a production project is to keep it going. I hope I can do that with my project :yes:

"

That's the bain of small productions.Hollywood can afford the legal people with contracts to ensure the production is completed and they do movies full time.They don't have the problems of people who work other jobs with schedules that conflict.

EDIT:..and Jax?, you're a photog, I know a photog when I see one, er....read one, uh, you know what I mean....

Not really,what do you mean?We seem to be on a different plane here.Not sure what you're trying to say.I'm not following you there,bro.

--spinner :cool:

[/QUOTE]

spinner · Oct 2, 2005

jaxshooter said:
..".if you are in television news, then you know that its not the camera, its the OPERATOR "

Oh yeah this is true up to a point.I doubt very seriously I could compete in news if I was shooting with an outdated consumer tube camera and 3/4 inch recorder.My point in mentioning the camera was the guy who called himself an "experienced producer/director" was trying to tell me that his prosumer camera was the same type of camera used in Star Wars.You're right about the fact a decent shooter can make a good picture with just about anything,yet the standard definition NTSC signal coming out of a prosumer camera is not the same as the High Definition signal coming out of the Sony F9's used in Star Wars. My point was that this guy was not only showing his ignorance,he was practically proud of it.

...pardon me, I tend to go off on tangents

I don't dispute that the film/tv capitols of the world are LA and NY, I just meant that just because you aren't there doesn't mean you can't do great things. Some of the best ideas come from the rest of the country. I realize the Detroit thing was allegorical, hence the tangent. In MI the money is spent because of the Big Three located here (Ford, GM, Chrysler). And I agree with the work that ends up being corporate video. The problem is that the bottom line is you have to make the client happy and they don't have the slightest idea of how to put together a video/film anything, so it comes out looking not so great.

That's the bain of small productions.Hollywood can afford the legal people with contracts to ensure the production is completed and they do movies full time.They don't have the problems of people who work other jobs with schedules that conflict.

Click to expand...

..true, and its too bad. The problem I am having is just this. Can't find a camera operator who can take the time off to work on a project with me...(sigh)...

EDIT:..and Jax?, you're a photog, I know a photog when I see one, er....read one, uh, you know what I mean....

Not really,what do you mean?We seem to be on a different plane here.Not sure what you're trying to say.I'm not following you there,bro.

Click to expand...

...I only meant that you sound like a person who goes out with the reporters and then comes back to edit and put together the footage that makes air. There are different names for different places. I thought I read somewhere that you did some editing for the newscast. At my station the camera ops who go out with the reporters are called 'photogs'. Unless you make commercials for your station. Where I am that is creative services and not really connected to the production staff for the newscasts.

...I don't think that we're on too much of a different plane, just different terminology. And me and my tangents

--spinner

knightly · Oct 2, 2005

<rant>

We've had a lot of setbacks on the low/no-budget feature I'm currently producing. I've ended up doing a lot of the technical work on this production. Being in the midst of an "I have an idea and a passion but no budget" type of production right now...I understand what you are saying, but it's my passion that is carrying this production through. I've been the cinematographer, audio tech, director (my intended position), producer, Scheduling Guy (I'd like to hire someone to do that on my next shoot, it's the only job I found really difficult)...everything but an actor (I haven't done my VO's yet). I'll also be editing and working on the distribution of it.

I have experienced how nice it is to have a separate camera guy, and AD and Sound folks, but on the day, I do whatever needs doing to get the job done. And I have what I would consider a low work ethic. It upsets me to hear when people get others involved on a largish project (bigger than a birdhouse) and then fizzle...I just don't understand the mentality. It upsets me just as much when people commit and they fizzle.

My current production has been plagued by murphy's law too often. DP hurt his back right before the shoot was to start (fell off a ladder while painting-ouch), Audio Tech trapped in his parking lot (by a parade my kids were in), Lead male had his water pipes explode (flooding his basement)...and this was all on the first day.

Murphy's law happens (sometimes all at once), but people shouldn't be a cause of a movie not getting finished. The indie film thing is a tough love job with no guarantees. Do whatever's in your power to see a production through to completion, let the distribution channel call your production a failure, you will have succeeded by completing the project!

</rant>

spinner · Oct 2, 2005

knightly said:
<rant>
It upsets me to hear when people get others involved on a largish project (bigger than a birdhouse) and then fizzle...I just don't understand the mentality. It upsets me just as much when people commit and they fizzle.

I just got done SCREAMING about this on another thread, well, typing in all caps for a bit, the sentiment is the same. This SUCKS!

Murphy's law happens (sometimes all at once), but people shouldn't be a cause of a movie not getting finished.

...I agree. The hard part is figuring out what to do next...and figuring out how to DO next...

The indie film thing is a tough love job with no guarantees. Do whatever's in your power to see a production through to completion, let the distribution channel call your production a failure, you will have succeeded by completing the project!

...you are preaching to the choir. If I get out of this alive

I will consider myself fortune full....

--spinner :cool:

jaxshooter · Oct 2, 2005

jaxshooter · Oct 2, 2005

knightly said:
<rant>

"I have an idea and a passion but no budget" type of production right now...I understand what you are saying, but it's my passion that is carrying this production through. "

Absolutely.The big difference I see in you and the morons I've had the misfortune to come across is that you are COMPETENT.You KNOW what you want and what it takes to get it done and are willing to do it.I've run across the people who think making a crime drama is just like playing cops and robbers only with a camcorder.

The key in working with a dream and no money is to work WITH what you have and not AGAINST what you don't have.The success of Robert Rodriguez's film El Mariachi,no matter whether you like Rodriguez or not,is that they took what they had on hand and developed a story around it.They had a guitar,a jail,a motorcycle,a dog and guns and that's what they built their story around.So many indie filmmaker wannabes have this vision and they try to make that grandiose vision happen with no money.They want chase scenes and big budget special effects complete with pyrotechnic explosions and they haven't the vaguest clue what it takes to make it happen.

Marcel · Oct 6, 2005

Jax, They have to research what they are doing first. Indie's should try and make a couple of short films first. This is where they will falter. If and indie needs a better perspective of how to move a film along they should acquire a comic book and look at the story panels inside them. Those drawn panels have every known shot a filmmaker can use, plus it isn't that hard to carry something like that around with you when one is shooting.

I just putting the last touches to my film/video which is 83 minutes long. I didn't use a high end camera, I used an outdated Canon ZR40. I can't say whether I have a good film or not, because one thing that is overlooked is the writing of the screenplay.

I've seen a couple of indie films done in my area, and they were terrible, just because the way they were wrote, and directed.

I do know that my actress in my film needed some experience in acting, and her acting in the beginning was kind of dull. I tried my best to get the emotion out of her, but basically it was a no go (maybe it was her goth lifestyle at the time). She did get better overtime, because she had to fill in for other roles, because I couldn't find interested actors, and one left.

My budget, not including my computer upgrade. This includes, costumes, gas, giving out a little bit of money, and some extra stuff. Probably around 300 dollars.

In the first act of my sceenplay I was shooting around 10-15 pages in 3-4 hours over 2-3 weekends. Challenging, yes, since I was doing 98% of the work, as a one man crew. I had one camera guy for around 5 hours, or a couple of days, but he had to move. I think I might be babbling on here

so I better hush up.

tough stuff, but I think I know what I am doing.

www.wordsallowmotion.com

marcel

jaxshooter · Oct 6, 2005

Definitely,the lack of planning and experience is the bain of small indie productions.The biggest problem I see are people with just plain unrealistic expectations.Nothing wrong with using an outdated camera,as long as the look you get out of it is what you're looking for and the camera isn't overtaxed.You wouldn't expect to high end fashion photography with a Polaroid,but for ID pictures and simple candid shots,Polaroids work well.

Your Goth style actress sounds like a typical story of indie films as well.I was once hired to do a pilot episode of a proposed TV series and the producer/director hired these women who were supposed to be fashion models that were at least 25lbs overweight.It was painful to see.

Besides good planning and preproduction,indie filmmakers should look at what's on hand and available rather than try to make something out of nothing.A Goth actress will be fine,IF the character she is playing is similar to her own personality.

Everyone seems to want to make the big movie without the necessary ingredients.The true test of creativity,imho,is to look at what's available and make a story from that.In and of itself,THAT will be a challenge but not an impossibility.