I'm not happy with my current position in life at the moment, but Im working hard to achieve high standards and widespread recognition, as i think a better life will follow. does anyone else feel the same? what are your views on fame?

It is possible to be quite famous/succesful, and yet remain personally miserable.

You do not acheive satisfaction with yourself, based on others' perceived impressions of you. Your own intrinsic worth and self-esteem should not be reliant on how high random others may have placed you on some ego-pedestal.

Go talk to your school counselor. :)

Go talk to your school counselor. :)
:haha: (http://misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#) Would you honestly take advice from the one person who couldn't find a real job so he became a school counselor?? :lol: (http://misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#)

I think more opportunities will come to someone who's relatively famous than to someone who isn't, especially in independent films. The key to success in this industry is to produce quality work and for that work to be seen. Whether your goal is financial security, gaining recognition or just entertaining an audience, a little fame goes a long way.

very good point. any others feel like sharing their wisdom?

Success is a tricky thing. For one man success is making $$$$. For another it's making love. For another success equals fame.

I think the questions you have to ask yourself Gavin (other than, "Do I feel lucky?") is, "Do I want fame, or success? And are they exclusive?"

Personally, I used to crave fame, but as I get older and wiser (and more obese) I realize that fame is not what I truly want.

Poke

what are your views on fame?

for every 1 thousand that love you, 100 don't, 10 want to kill you, and 1 wants to steal your spermatozoa, freeze it, give you a sex change, and then impregnate you with your own juices (after they have unfrozen it, of course, otherwise that would just be wierd).

oh, and Gav, you are seeking a famous life, in order to get an easire life.
the problem there is that your current existence, that is the seeking of fame, is (to you) a means to a seperate end (the easier life).
the only things that can make you geniunely happy are things in themselves, that is things which are not means toward a seperate end, but ends in themselves.
thats why people who work all day on sweeping streets (at least the ones i talk to) are hardly ever happy - because the aim/end of their labour is some leisure time.
try to do something that is not a means to something else, and that will give you geniune happiness
ponderosa away

I'm not happy with my current position in life at the moment, but Im working hard to achieve high standards and widespread recognition, as i think a better life will follow.

If you can be happy where you are, despite your position, then a better life will follow. Don't lose ambition, but taper it so that it fuels you without consuming you.

does anyone else feel the same?

I sometimes feel like that... I'm in debt and it seems the more I work to pay off the debt, the more the debt grows, and all I REALLY want is an XL2 and equipment to start making some flicks. But then I think... well, I'm living in a really nice part of downtown Toronto with my girlfriend, I have all my limbs, and even though the cupboards are filled with Kraft Dinner, I LIKE Kraft dinner.
(for those of you living in countries without Kraft Dinner, it is a cheesy pasta substitute consisting of flavorless macaroni covered in powdered cheese. Sounds rank, but trust me, once you've had it, you will know God.)


what are your views on fame?


Fame is something that happens. People need leaders, and leaders need to be known by the people. The fact is, no matter what you do, if you do it well (or REALLY badly), you will eventually have stories told about you. Aristotle gets a lot of mention still these days because for his time, he was really good at what he did (thinking). Hitler was a pretty darn evil dude, but we still hear about him because he was a pretty well known guy back in the day. And then there's J.dot. Who hasn't heard about Jesus? He's all over the place, man... in our kitchens, in our convience stores, in our hotel nightstands... that's pretty famous. The thing is, lately, fame is something that we have jumped on. With mass media, and global communications, EVERYONE wants to be remembered for all of eternity. The problem is, we get a lot of people getting famous, over-saturating the market. And THIS leads to the concept that to be famous is an ultimate goal, and THIS leads to MORE people becoming famous, and THIS makes people get bumped down the list (AKA Emilio Esteves). So really, we're at a point where anone can get famous, but not "Jesus Famous", so really, fame isn't going to solve your problems, because now you get "15mins" and you're done. And when you're done you'll be even worse, because people might still know you, but they won't REALLY know you, and you won't have anything but your own memories.
So getting "famous" these days isn't really an honor, it's just a temporary job.

Now, with ALL that in mind... does this change your conception of fame? I know the game now... You need some level of fame to get ahead with your career, but to be "famous" is to be there and back again without a clue. The point is to do something that will be accredited and loved enough to make you a leader, not having your face on "X" magazine so you can get into a bar without ID. It's about hard work and determination, and gaining an audience.

Oh man... I just typed a lot. I think I'm tired. I better stop. Lemme summarize for the skimmers.

Having Fame = Recieving acknowledgement for something you have done (good or bad)
"Being Famous" = Flavour of the weak.

I honestly don't know what I'm talking about....grr... stupid ADD...

My take on it is this. The whole dream of fame, wealth, and greatness is a great driving force but a dangerous force. The more we see happiness in our minds and what it is "supposed" to be the more we're going to be let down no matter what happens. But if you can keep those desires in the back of your mind and just be the absolute best you can be then happiness will follow because at the end of the day you will have produced something that made you happy.

I know a lot of folks see fame and wealth as being equivelant to freedom. But at this level the work being put into even the most simple project is astronomical; it's not going to get any better for the succesful. You may be doing something you love but there is still stress, there are still problems, and there is still worry. Happiness is internal. An inherently happy person is going to be content with what he's given, do the best job he can, and should be rewarded for doing that. An inherently unhappy person is going to be malcontent with what he's earned, still do the best job he can, be rewarded but it's still not going to be enough.

I'm hoping this is making sense as it is really, really late. But, the point is, if a person is in this "business" just for the fame and fortune and recognition then it's for the wrong reason. Personally I'm in this because it's the only thing I've ever wanted to do and would be happy just to be able to make a little more per month than what's going out per month as long as I can do this for the rest of my life. That's what will make me happy, that's what will make me succeed; not great wealth or fame (although they couln't hurt). Wealth and fame is a fringe benefit to this business. The best work comes from a place where those exterior motivations do not exist.

I may be wrong, that's just how I see it at 0' dark thirty.

The musical?

The musical?
smartarse

Haha..

I couldn't really care less if I got famous or not.. I make films because it's what I love to do. It's how I'll spend my life as long as I still have a passion for it.

If you're not happy with it..maybe it's not how you want to spend your life anyway.. no advice is going to help you if you're in this for the wrong reasons. So if you're in doubt.. think about the reasons you make films.. & if all you can think of is the glory.. get out of the industry.

Sorry to sound harsh.. but I know too many kids who whine about getting famous.

thank you for all ur points of views. They are all extremely interesting so far.

When I used to teach actors the first class I had with them I would ask them:

"Do you want to be an actor or do you just think that acting is a way to get famous?"

With very few exceptions the answer was the second, most of them didn't really want to be an actor, they wanted fame. The same is true in film making.

The truth is that if a person's is motivated by a desire for fame, they become capable of anything in order to achieve it, they loose all sense of value of themselves and other people. Other people will exploit that and they will exploit other people. The desire for fame is many things, but ultimately a destructive force.

The other side is that people have no real idea about what fame means. When I was in Santa Barbara last year I went into a Mexican restaurant for a meal and when I was seated I realised that I was about two foot away from Brude Willis and his family. I looked at him, a bit shocked I guess and in his eyes I could see a nervousness. I thought a lot about this and realised that fame means never being able to walk into Starbucks and order a coffee without people getting weirded out by it, it means always being public property, it means giving up much more than you gain (In my opinion)

To quote the Fun Lovin Criminals "I'd rather have money than fame"

I think this is why I love directing, I'm a massive fan of Luc Besson and I could be sat next to him on a plane and never know who I was sitting next to. Appreciation of your work and a fulfilling creative life is better than fame.

This is the reason I stopped doing stand-up comedy. I had the opportunity to become famous doing that and then build my film making career on that fame, but I'd rather have the freedom of anonymity.

This is the reason I stopped doing stand-up comedy. I had the opportunity to become famous doing that and then build my film making career on that fame, but I'd rather have the freedom of anonymity.


Jesus, you kept that one quiet!! i have to admit that is a fear of mine. me and my friends do comedy, we have proven quite popular in parts of the UK, planning to become a professional writing group in 2007 - performing our own stuff on stage (most likely - thats what we do know anyway).
but i really do fear in a way that fame may come, and i know that i won't like that. i completely corroborate with Clive that fame can indeed come at a price. i have already told the others that i will not be turning up to award shows (yes, we are very arrogant and naive). ideally i would move from the comedy into serious writing, then working for communities - but i must admit i am afraid that early success will come at a price, and my life we be decided for me, rather than by me.
fame/freedom. freedom/fame.
ponderosa

To be loved is not a bad thing. neither is respect. These come along with fame.

respect and love come from many places, and i would not say that fame is one of them.

who is famous - Hitler -
respected/loved - no

who is famous - Abee Titmuss (same as Jordan)
respected/loved - surely not!

who is famous - Jordan (a large breasted female in the Uk, for those elsewhere)
respected/loved - perhaps only by Peter Andre (her boyfriend) and her daughter(s)
- and do you really think thats because Jordan is famous?!

my point - its what you do that makes you loved and respected, they are certainly not by-products of fame Gavin.

the most important forms of respect and love, at least in the prevailing order of things, are self-respect and self-love

by social defintion fame is dictated by the judgements of OTHERS on you - thus they cannot be forms of SELF love or respect, and is a VERY sorry substitute for that elusive self-appreciation which is what you should truly aim for, and not your breats on page 3 of The Sun or ethnic cleansing.
ponderosa

In the end, isn't really a question of self-fulfillment?

Do what you love, love what you do. Everything else is inconsequential.

This isn't just an aphorism. After spending 25+ years in the high tech industry, I've never been happier than I am at this point in my life because I'm doing what I've always wanted to do.

There no fame - barely any notoriety at all. There's little or no money involved (income... there are a lot of expenses.) But I wouldn't choose to be doing anything else.

Before the 5th (and probably fatal) heart attack comes along, I want to be able to look back and say that I had a blast while I was here. Fame and money are transitory - fleeting, one might say, but the sef-satisfaction of what you've accomplished, I think that's something lasting.

abso-bloody-lutely Paul, thankyou for throwing some of your life experience into this discourse!!!

edit -
ditto to Clive

To be loved is not a bad thing. neither is respect. These come along with fame.

Love and respect are different.

Fame is just a name for a game,
That they play to be sane,
When they're looking for gain,
But it's a search all in vain,
Because it only brings pain,
When they don't know your name,
Anymore.

That's a little poem I wrote just now.
You don't go looking for fame, it finds you if it wants. If you go looking for it, you will only find an empty stage. I would suggest loving and respecting yourself, and after that, you will no longer need fame.
The only fame I need is from the people I know. You are seeking an "Image", but that's not YOU, that's just a picture of what you see as ideal. Accept the fact that you are not perfect, and your imperfections make you unique, special and different. Throw away the "image" and take yourself for who YOU are. Then you will be happy, then you will be sane. Then THEY will want to make you famous because THEY will want what you have... and you will hate THEM for it, and you will realize how vain fame is. And you will no longer want fame, because it is something for the hollow minds that feed on the images and ideals of the ones they want to be.
Do you want 12-year-old girls posting you on thier walls? Or do you want your picture in a frame on a loved one's bedside table?
If you answer the latter, audition for American Idol, ask Nike or Adidas for sponsorship, and call Satan to Earth to sell your soul while you are at it... It's all it will get you, because in the end when the 12-year-olds grow up and throw out your image, and the Idols burn, and the sponsors leave and Satan finds someone else to eat away at, you will be left with less than you started with. You will be left with a gaping hole that can never be filled, and then you will be one of THEM.... and you will feed, but you will never eat.
If you answered the latter, I'm sorry if that last paragraph was dark and scary.
Also, if you answered "unsure", I would suggest you go out to the middle of a field with a shovel, start digging, and don't stop until you figure out what you want. Because it's important to know.

BAH!

-Logan-

seems we got a consensus here for you Gavin
find what you want,
if its fame - rock with it,
but don't confuse love and respect with that,
get some self-appreciation
i'll be honest with you here Gavin -
Clive, Paul, Zoolio and Spatula (him less so than the rest) have turned on the tap,
and poured some bloody good points on your face and body and house,
swim in their wisdom

Damn you nemisis!!!!!
:)

hahaha - let the games begin!
I LOVE LIFE!!!

Jesus, you kept that one quiet!!


www.zenclown.co.uk (http://www.zenclown.co.uk)

Not that quiet :lol:

And Gavin, I also give "on demand" spirtual advice 24/7 on this site, just "Ask"

You need never wonder about the mysteries of life ever again :D

The only reason I'd want fame is because it would come as a result of doing what I do well. As a writer, there's of kind of glass ceiling to fame, so I don't really worry about not being able to go to the mall with out a mickey mouse hat and sunglasses.

Actually, I would like to be famous just for the chance to be invited onto the O'reilly factor and pick him apart. I'd also like the money that comes with it too (to give to the poor, of course).

Nique, is this the Richard Herring that is singing your praises???

http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/faculty/herring.html

hahah, sadly not, but one day T(om), one day.

maybe its coz i'm different. I want fame because I wanna have the money, meet a group of new people and move away from my family. I dont wanna be in contact with them anymore

The happiest people I know don't worry much about fame. Quickest way to become happy is to cook a good meal for someone.. I think fame/success/winning/etc. are great things to strive for but.. not the whole story.

Sure, you'll get "love" and "respect" if you are famous but fame is almost always temporary (quick, can you name the Oscar winners from 2002? The Cannes winners from 2004? More than 3 Olympic Track Gold Medalists?).

People that go crazy looking for respect often just need to learn how to respect other people :cool:

I honestly do want to be famous. Money isn't important too me, but I would like to be respected and remembered long after I die...just a life goal.

you don't have to be famous in your own lifetime. hardly anyone (outside of the ideological elites of Europe) knew the name of Karl Marx in his lifetime - wham bam - many years later he is as big as legends get. i don't think being respected equals being famous or that being famous equals being respected - its the people who don't get famous, works their faces into the ground, they are the ones i respect, not Bruce Willis and Courtney Love.
'don't try to be a famous or great man, just try to be you, and let history makes it own call'

maybe its coz i'm different. I want fame because I wanna have the money, meet a group of new people and move away from my family. I dont wanna be in contact with them anymore

there is nothing stopping you from moving on now, with our without fame - is that the real reason? the moving - you can do that anyway. the money - is the richest person in the world also the most famous?
no - so, by logic, being famous does not equal rich (they are not the same thing, and wealth will not necessarily be a by-product of fame).
are these your real reasons?because you don't need fame for either

maybe its coz i'm different. I want fame because I wanna have the money, meet a group of new people and move away from my family. I dont wanna be in contact with them anymore

You can get all of that without fame Gav!
Already you've met new friends here, and given time and effort you can make some money and move away. Just remember, that no matter how badly people treat you, you can't hold that against them. Some people have no conception how to deal with thier own problems, so they take it out on others... instead of getting angry at them, pity them (but don't put yourself above them).
I'm not saying take shit from people, just understand shit, and try to be positive about it.
Money does NOT equal happiness... that's public domain, dude. Money can make life easier, and make it harder depending on how much you have, but it's all in the mind about being happy.
You have to understand yourself first. I would suggest getting a job and saving up a bit o' cash, then travel for a month. Go to Europe, go to Canada, go to Mexico... whatever you do, take some time to yourself and figure out what YOU need and want. Try to absorb yourself in different cultures.. you'll find that people can be happy with nothing in some places. I know, living in the city, that most people revolve thier lives around money. If you get out of your habitat for a while, not only will it bring spiritual inspiration, but creative inspiration as well... who knows, maybe you could write of your travels, make a film and get fame through that... but it shouldn't be about "getting famous"... it should be about figuring stuff out... get curious... what do you want to know? Is there a place or culture you have been interested in learning?
I know a guy who just left to teach English in Japan for a year... he's always loved Eastern cinema and now he's getting first-hand experience of the culture. When he gets back, he'll have one hell of a tale under his belt.
Don't worry Gav... everything works out in the end. Karma, dude. Just do unto others and all that and eventually you will be happy.

If you go to Mexico, don't drink the water.

-Logan-

don't try to be a famous or great man, just try to be you, and let history makes it own call'
I disagree with that simply because my trying to be the best man I can be has brought me such hapiness in life. If I never tried to improve myself or do great things, i wouldn't be half as happy with myself as I am now...and I don't even think the ride is over yet...fame isn't everything, but trying to be great is..to me.

If everyone tried to be a great person, the world would be a wonderful place. I think that too many people are comfortable with their flaws, and don't try to be the best they can be.

If everyone tried to be a great person, the world would be a wonderful place. I think that too many people are comfortable with their flaws, and don't try to be the best they can be.

i agree - we should try to be great, but greatness means alot of different things to different people - and sometimes our ambitions can actually be bad for the world. i have never been comfortable with my flaws - thats what keeps me going, aiming, striving to be more than i am.
my point Logan was that you should not look to future societies to validate your existence, try to be a good person for yourself, not for the concomitant fame or money.
it sounds that we have the same thinking on this - and I'm glad you want to be a great person. that makes at least 2 of us - and in fact, everyone on this thread, by trying to help Gav out, has gone a little way to being such a person. good luck to us.

I know that I don't need to be "validated" by future societies...and if i'm not remembered, oh well...It's just a life goal of mine...someting to shoot for. I'm just saying that it would be nice...cool...really cool...not necessary, though...so yeah, we pretty much agree except that I do like the idea of fame for myself.

we pretty much agree except that I do like the idea of fame for myself.

i like the idea of fame for you if its what you want too :) !!!!!!
good luck with it Logan, looking forward to seeing your name in bright lights, or at the very least, on some kind of poster which i can shine a bright light on

Its very easy to be obsessed with fame, as we live in a culture and society where fame is idolised and everyone who is famous is an idol.
This is a very futile and destructive ideal and way of living. The majority of fame is based on propoganda, spin, marketing and only a few people are famous through talent or achievement. Mass culture itself is making fame a frivilous thing.
I am sick of it. It's a kids game really.

Gavin, what you are looking for is happiness, not fame. Here's how to be happy.

1) Every morning meditate for fifteeen minutes. To meditate you sit still and relaxed with a straight back. You breath in through your nose and out of your mouth paying attention to your breath. If any other thoughts come into your mind (which they will) you let them drift away as soon as you are able. It isn't anymore complicated than that, but it only works if you do it first thing everyday.

2) After mediation eat a light breakfast, which contains some protein.

3) Go out and do twenty minutes gentle exercise (walking, jogging, swimming, riding a bike)

4) Give up 95% of processed sugar. Eat three thimes a day and don't snack in between.

5) Spend at least one hour a day working on one of your creative projects.

6) Spend at least an hour a day with friends

7) Spend no more than two hours a day watching TV or using the internet.

8) Try and do at least one thing everyday for somebody else

9) And finally, drink lots of water.

I guarantee that if you do all of the above for thirty days you won't feel like the world is shafting you and your projects will all be moving forwards at an incredible rate. Then all you have to do is carry on with it for the rest of your life.

The truth is that 98% of most emotional problems dissapear if you mediatate, eat well and get regular exercise.

Of course, the only problem with doing the above is that it means you are personally responsible for how you feel and it's not possible to blame anyone else.

Clive, you sound like you're Baz Lurhman reciting 'Suncreen' hahaaa

Clive, you sound like you're Baz Lurhman reciting 'Suncreen' hahaaa

Hey, what's the point in being an old fart if you can't patronise the youngsters. :lol:

Clive's program actually looks pretty good. I'm going to try it out.
I made this spreadsheet:
http://sunfrog-tech.com/files/clive-program.xls

It's kind of been touched on already... Do what you love to do and the fame will follow. Unfortunately, doing what you love to do is hard work and that's where I see 99% of the problems.

Most screenwriters I know simply don't write... They talk about screenwriting, they attend workshops, etc. but when it comes right down to it, they don't even complete one screenplay a year. That's not DOING, that's playing.

Same with filmmakers...

Although there is something to be said for constantly learning, eventually, you have to make a film. You have to overcome all the obstacles of which, there are many. You have to keep learning... But most importantly, you have to make a film. Then another, and another...

Assuming of course, it's what you love to do at the time...

I've been lucky enough to have several jobs in my life that I really liked alot... Not loved, but definitely liked well enough to try to be the absolute best at... I figured, "What the hell... I'm here, I might as well make it work..." So I busted my ass to be the best at those jobs and in doing so, I achieved fame in those niches... It was interesting... I never even thought about the fame while doing the job to the best of my ability and always trying to improve but the fame came and catapulted me into other opportunities...

I honestly believe that doing this in ANY endeavor will eventually bring fame... Maybe not the kind of fame that Brad Pitt has but fame within your chosen profession or niche... But to achieve that fame, you can't just process work... You have to create... You have to break rules but before doing so, you really need to know the rules first. That means education... Self taught or institution but to get really good at anything, you MUST constantly work at it and educate yourself in the same field. It's a never ending process. But keep at it and the fame will definitely find you.

As an example...

My brother started making English Longbows about 4 years ago. Every day for the last 4 years, he's been in his workshop turning out bow after bow. He's read all the books and he's experimented with lots of designs...

Last summer, he took one of his designs to an international flight shooting event and won the world record for his particular class with his particular design. Within his niche, he is now famous. Of course you wouldn't know him unless you were familiar with that particular niche... But within his niche, he is definitely famous.

Because of this new found fame, many many opportunities keep popping up for him. His business has grown by 500%.

I believe anyone can achieve the same results as long as they WORK and continue to educate and improve themselves...

filmy

Clive's program actually looks pretty good. I'm going to try it out.

I've just downloaded it. You're a man after my own heart, I've got an excel spreadsheet for everything but not my daily routine (big thanks)

Hey, filmy, great post. I completely agree any discussion about fame is irrelevant, it's about the work and the commitment. Which reminds me I've got two screenplays to rewrite that I've been putting off for the last six weeks, time to start being a screenwriter again ;)

I honestly believe that doing this in ANY endeavor will eventually bring fame... Maybe not the kind of fame that Brad Pitt has but fame within your chosen profession or niche... But to achieve that fame, you can't just process work... You have to create... You have to break rules but before doing so, you really need to know the rules first. That means education... Self taught or institution but to get really good at anything, you MUST constantly work at it and educate yourself in the same field. It's a never ending process. But keep at it and the fame will definitely find you.

This is just so true. When I was working in advertising I wrote a campaign for Firkin Breweries using Punk Poet John Cooper Clarke, it eventually won four London International Advertising Awards (The advertising world's equivalent of the Oscars). The funny thing is that altough I got the recognition in the industry and my fifteeen minutes of fame I didn't enjoy it anywhere as much as creating the campaign, which was where the real joy was. Fame is a chimera, it doesn't pay off, creative work pays off right now everyday.

Thanks guys, I just remembered why this forum is so important. It reminds you of the importnat stuff.

haha - this forum is important because it reminds you of this forum! you've gotta love deconstruction! what a sweetie! :)

ps - i love this place too.

Okay. Some very well thought out views here...Only this niggling point: The kind of fame that that brings the trappings of not being able to go to McD's for a quick bite, is also the fame that is dilligently worked towards across years of toil. What's more, is that the published critiques that eventually will surround your work, bring a certain schooling to your behaviour.
There is also the immediate celebrity status that can be thrust upon the individual, and regarding the film director or screenwriter, I just cannot think of our production-body counterpart to Paris Hilton...Unless something like "Director-Idol" comes along one day and a contestant hides his porn-directing background...
Fame is a multi-faceted thing involving at times many elements, and at the core of the Eastwoods of this world, it's all been ball-breaking work.

Unless something like "Director-Idol" comes along one day

Project Greenlight - Thursday nights, on Bravo. :cool:

I think I would actually hate to be famous, and I actually fear that a little. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to have some recognized you every once in a while, but man, I could not live if everywhere I went people where hounding me for autographs and pictures, or just generally bugging me.

I would much rather have a small cult following than be full-blown famous....then I would use that cult to do all of my evil bidding.