OK. When you think about film making long enough you realise that distribution is the key to the whole business. Without a paying audience film making is just an expensive hobby.

I've noticed that of all the topics that get discussed, distribution is the one that perhaps we talk about least. I think this is because although we all know that we can get a camera, write a script, shoot and edit a film, finding a paying audience is the one part of the equation that alludes most indie film makers worldwide.

I'd like us to change that. Seriously.

As a group we are spread all over the world and each of us is part of a larger, local film making community or even just part of a larger community with an interest in films.

I guess I'm wondering whether that is something that we can make work for ourselves.

Could we, for instance, set up our own international distribution circuit, showing indie films from around the world in local venues using video projection and PA's for the sound?

Just to put a perspective on this, most cinemas in the UK are charged $140-$200 a week to rent a film print, plus a percentage of the box office. This is the same whether it's the local mulit-plex or the local arthouse cinema. The problem with getting cinema distribution for indie films is that the film prints are so expensive, that print runs are kept low and this decreases the chances of the distributor making their money back.

So, lets imagine that between us, right now, we can set up ten UK based indie-cinemas (referred to from now on as i-cinema), maybe a couple in Europe, four in Oz and fifty across the US.

Let's say that an i-cinema is a video projector based cinema, in a non-traditional venue that has a showing once a month and that each night shows four shorts and a feature, charging $5 a head.

Providing that you can cut a deal with the venue in that they get to keep the bar receipts and therfore they give you the venue for free (a pretty easy deal to cut), if $100 dollars goes to the films ($80 to the feature, $5 to each of the shorts), therefore if you can get 50 people a month to the event, the organiser has $150 to cover any other expenses/profit.

This would mean that if a feature was shown across the entire network it would bring in $5000.

Now I know that this is small money, but the actual value of this is that you can build the credibilty of the film by opening it up to a global audience. This could be used either to lever a mainstream distribution deal or to drive direct DVD sales from a website.

The goal, of course is to set up a network of several thousand venues worldwide. With several thousand venues the maths gets to the point where distribution by this network alone becomes commercially viable for lo budget films.

Of course, there are issues. Of which the most important is, are there enough films of a high enough quality to build both audience and the reputation of i-cinema? The whole thing will die a death if people aren't stunned by the quality of the films.

So, talk to me. I'm not suggesting we set this up this week. All I'm doing is suggesting that we may have the power to do something about distribution, other than pretent that it isn't an issue. I'm open to ideas, but more importantly let's talk seriously about this subject and what strenghts we have as an international community.

Just to give a clear idea of where this could go, in the US alone, with just ten i-cinema per state, the takings for a feature from one showing across the whole network would be $400,000.

Clive--you have certainly put some thought into this and the idea sounds great...in theory. Last year, Bophe talked about setting up a local "Indie Film Fest." We planned to rent a location, solicit film submmissions (most likely from IndieTalk and from local film schools), and charge admission. We were hoping to fill at least 4 to 6 hours if not more. This is something we still might do in the future, but other projects are taking priority right now.

You are right about the need for HIGH QUALITY films, but even more important than that is the problem of local marketing. The word has to get out...and to the right people. The best quality films won't make a bit of difference if the seats are empty. This is where I think we will have the greatest challenge...convincing people to spend their time at a show of unknown movies. Another thing to consider is that most larger cities already have some type of Independent Film Fest (here in Philadelphia, we have one that runs a full week and gets the best quality films). Your plan would compete for those patrons.

Finally, your plan detailed above does not factor in the cost of equipment. Where does the video projector and sound amp equipment come from? The local organizer would likely need to rent or buy these items, which would likely eat up all of the profit. I guess what I am saying is--it will take a LOT of work for someone to set up one of these i-cinemas, and that person would most likely want something in return for their time and effort. If the plan is based on paying for the films first, then the organizer gets to keep what's left, the "what's left" at the end of the night may not be enough to be worth while. Someone could always do it just for love...but that may get tiresome after a while. Your plan also mentions that the local venue would keep bar receipts. So you're talking about a bar...this means 21 and over only in the US, potentially cutting out some high school/college patrons. However, not going the "bar" route means renting a facility which would be cost prohibitive based on your idea.

I know I am speaking negatives, but in truth I really like your idea. I would love to see something like this work. I would just suggest working in more of the big picture into the plan to account for all expenses and marketing challenges. Let's keep this one going and see how it evolves. Anyone else?

Yeap, I completely agree with all your points.

However can I answer them with an observation.

If we are each preapared to invest in cameras to make films, editing software, computers, tape stock and fancy script writing software or are prepared to find ways to make films without any money, could we not use the same resourcefulness to distribute them as well.

I know I could blag all the equipment I need to make this work for nothing or minimal costs.

As for the marketing. Well, fifty people isn't that many. There are at least two hundred filmakers alone in my home city.

Like I said I'm open to suggestions, but my main point is that if we really wanted it we could make it happen.

When we were thinking about a film fest, our idea was to market it to local filmmakers and have a panel of guest judges (perhaps local celebs, like radio DJs). We would not pay for films, but rather offer cash-prize awards for films judged to be the best in certain categories. The cash prizes would be a percentage of the ticket sales...so, filmmakers looking to win a prize would want to help increase their potential winnings by helping market the fest and boost attendance. Let the filmmakers do a lot of the advertising work for you!

Again, I like the idea and I hope others join the discussion.

I think this is an intriguing concept to say the least. I'll have more thoughts as this settles in.

Firstly, we wouldn't need 35mm "high quality" films. What we would need is films worthy of being shown. And in a format of say 4 under 15 minute shorts and one 90 minute feature, I think it would be well worth a $5 ticket price. Also, the buzz of presenting an indie circuit to places that don't have anything like it (which is basically everywhere) would be sufficient in itself. Come see tomorrow's cinema stars, directors, and cinematographer's in films more different and unique than Hollywood could ever create.

Where I am, there is no cinemaplex for 20 miles although there is a smaller single cinema that plays the B movies and "last screenings" prints of Hollywood films but that is still 8 miles away, so this would be great for the community. There was a very historic cinema/theater here but it suffered heavy fire damage years ago and has not been restored (a project we have been approached to do but no way we will touch it without major grants) I already have plans for a film festival here, and this would be a great way to determine interest. I have the facility for multiple screenings at the same time and am in the middle of building an 18x24 small "home" theater with projection and surround sound, so I can screen my own films and of course have fun nightly watching my DVD's. But in reality I could not fit more than 20 people in this room and that would be a stretch. 20x5 = $100, and with only 1 or 2 shows a month Im not sure how that could really pay back the filmmakers and still pay for my costs and hopefully put a little bit of money in my pocket (not that Im trying to get rich but I have to at least cover my costs and it should at least pay me a teeny bit for going through all of the trouble). And would a Feature filmmaker really want $15 check for me showing their film to 20 people?

As I said Im playing with having multiple screenings at the same time including outdoor, but that is a ways off. I could put up a tent out on our side lot and fit maybe 50-100 people in a big tent, but again we are talking cost. Now the FF could be financially worth it with two simultaneous screenings worth $20 a ticket, but really thats not what we're talking about here. And forget about renting a cinema or something. No, it would have to be a room at a hotel or something to make it financially work as far as I can see right now. And that is not counting my $1k cost for the projector or anything else.

Again, Im interested in figuring a way for this to work. Nothing could make me happier than to champion some good indie films without distrobution to my community but it has to make sense all the way around.

The way I see this working for sure is that because the print is a DVD or even a CD, we are working straight with the filmmakers, so deals are open from free to percentage. That could be great! Again, Ill keep letting it float around upstairs.

I like your idea, this is one we should all mull over...
Another problem, though, is that not every place has art-house theatres that charge the same prices. I know we booked a cinema for a Friday night for $800 (Canadian) which is pretty good, but if you exit the city, the theatres of that calibre don't exist, and charge rates upwards of $1000-2000 dollars.

Perhaps there could be a kind of "touring company"?
Maybe, contacts in the cities set up the venues, and the company comes down for a week with a sort of "roving film fest". Each city, they could pick up local submissions and add to thier repetoire. People could pay different rates to keep thier films in the circuit for a certain amount of time.
I dunno- just a pipe dream...

Well, I like your idea, but finding the funds for that will require time, effort, and perhaps government grants???

Also, it needs to be different from a film festival somehow... and what are your plans for what movie goes where?

ALSO, advertising is a big part of finding an audience. There are very few people who go looking for films, they usually wait for them to find them... this idea would need to be advertised... a lot.

Well, that's my two cents.

-Logan-

I must admit I really like this idea. As part of my film "education" I have been seeking screenings of low-budget films/short films. While attending film festivals is a great way because of my location they often involve travel/lodging that make attending more than one or two a year cost prohibitive. I have been lucky and have found several events that leads me to believe that clive's ideas are not too far off the mark.



Clive-
As for the marketing. Well, fifty people isn't that many. There are at least two hundred filmakers alone in my home city.



In the past six months I have attended two Flickers in Richmond and I can attest to the fact that at least fifty people were at each event. We paid three dollars to see short films by mostly local film makers. If this often seemingly back water state can support an event like Flicker, I don't see why getting 50 locations stateside would be difficult.



Spatula-
Perhaps there could be a kind of "touring company"?
Maybe, contacts in the cities set up the venues, and the company comes down for a week with a sort of "roving film fest".

Last Thursday I attended the Black Maria Film Festival (http://www.blackmariafilmfestival.org/) after receiving an unsolicited email (who ever said spam is all evil ;)) This was my first experience with them, but they sure sound like what you are describing. Attendence at this event, while not filling the house was by my estimation near or surpasing the fifty attendees mark.


Doesn't seem that getting people in the door is that difficult.... keeping them coming back.... well... quality has already been discussed.

That's interesting... just checked out the website (thx for the link)... I didn't know something like that even existed (beyond my own elusive head)...

But, Clive... seriously, why not draw up a business plan (if you have time) and propose it here... it would be interesting to see... even if we can't all get somthing together right away, it could stir up some eventuals, maybe even some "future plans"???

-Logan-

But, Clive... seriously, why not draw up a business plan (if you have time) and propose it here... it would be interesting to see... even if we can't all get somthing together right away, it could stir up some eventuals, maybe even some "future plans"???

I'd be more than happy to draw up a business plan when I think we've got the problem cracked. The comments so far are definately helping.

It seems to me that the problem with a monthly event is that it can only show twelve feature films a year and yet to work financially you need a minmum of fifty to one hundred film-makers who are committted to showing the films. This would mean that someone or a panel would have to decide which films got distributed. Either that or there are a selection of films on the circuit and each i-cinema franchisee would programme to suit the tastes of their audience. (just like real cinema)

There's been a lot of talk about local festivals and maybe there is a way of combining the two ideas. This would mean that as a test of the idea or as a launch maybe we organise the first i-cinema festival, where the same programme of films is shown at sixty venues worldwide, all showing digitally. I think this could work because the local organiser could mix in the best of local talent with the international selection.

I'm off to th Commonwealth Film Festival in the next couple of days, maybe I'll talk to some of the international film makers there about these issues and see if we can widen the net. I think the marketing will be a lot easier if we can send out press releases to local press expalning that a worldwide network of filmakers is organising the world's largest film festival, with the same film showing at venues in twelve counties and fifty states.

I just thought of another point.. Can you clarify?
Are these films to be shown at the same time at every venue?
A lot of filmmakers like to see thier own works in the theatre to gauge audience reactions..

But what if... say you have a circuit of 50 theatres. Imagine it as a big dotted circle on the map of North America, if you will. Now, if you have 50 employees of the festival on each dot, and every week they rotate, the 50 movies go around the whole circuit with 2 weeks to spare at the end of a yearly cycle. At the end of that year, those 2 weeks could be a sort of "best of the circuit" showing... Do you get what I'm saying?

It would be harder because of the weekly costs, but that's something I'm afraid I can't really figure out.. it would allow people's movies to go all across the continent in a year... maybe if they pay $400 (which is fair for the number of showings) for a full year subscription, and with that they get advertising within the festival, comp tickets, etc... You might end up getting a movie that has acclaim, and as it tours, it could snowball and make the festival very popular... I guess the filmmaker should get back maybe a percentage of his fee through ticket sales.

I dunno, hope that makes sense.

-Logan-

But what if... say you have a circuit of 50 theatres. Imagine it as a big dotted circle on the map of North America, if you will. Now, if you have 50 employees of the festival on each dot, and every week they rotate, the 50 movies go around the whole circuit with 2 weeks to spare at the end of a yearly cycle. At the end of that year, those 2 weeks could be a sort of "best of the circuit" showing... Do you get what I'm saying?

I understand. The High Def festival tours the world much like this, fewer venues, but all high profile events.

The advantage of the approach you've suggested is that you could increase the quality of the showings by touring hte projection and sound rigs as well, with a crew. You'd have a travelling festival, with the local organiser finding a venue and handling publicity.

That's certainly another way of looking at it.

The good news is that we've only been looking at this for twenty-four hours and we've already a selection of ideas to consider, which is the main reason I asked this question in the first place.

Keep the ideas coming.

Well, I was more or less thinking along the lines that each location has a weekly showing of one of the 50 films, and the films go from location to location weekly.
It's daunting, but it would give a chance for 50 films to go to 50 locations in 50 weeks.

You could call it the "50 film marathon" or something, lol.

That way, every one of the 50 films could be in a constant rotation around the venues. Some might do well in certain areas, some might not, but next week, there'd be another one. It would probably take a LOT of planning, a LOT of money, but there are grants, sponsors (local and international). Local sponsors could be part of the weekly plan, international could sign on for a year, or so... I see potential there for funding...
The big problem would be to get a venue to do a fest every week... that could get pricey.. you'd probably have to start smaller than this, but it could work...


-Logan-

Clive,

Excellent thread, I love the idea of a DIY distribution chain.

The main problem I see is getting butts into seats. Not the first time, that should be no problem. It's the 10th and 25th time I'm worried about. What's the hook here? It's an easy sell for filmmakers (get distribution without having to jump through hoops and sell your firstborn). But I see the audience as a problem because you're basically telling them that they are seeing a film that's good enough to pay $5 for but that isn't good enough to get more traditional distribution (which filmmgoers might equate with quality). If the hook is simply "Great films, not compromised by traditional distribution" which might appeal to the film-lover, how is that different from a festival?

A possible solution is advertising this as "A monthly film festival". The audience gets the thrill of independent filmmaking they usually see at festivals but they would get that every month instead of every year. Also, if you had a subscription service (mentioned earlier and discussed below), you could use some of the funds to advertise about the the program and all the films. Messages would go out to filmmakers and film-lovers everywhere with targeted emails about the film coming up at the location near them.

I don't think any solution that requires a traveling team taking equipment to and from locations would work. Who pays for the team to eat, sleep, travel, etc? It seems negotiating with digital cinemas (or even film cinemas) with the power of a large group of interested filmmakers behind it would be a better way to go. The only thing that would move from venue to venue would be the print (or tape). The local "subscribee" could introduce the film and the program if the filmmaker wasn't there.

I think some power might come from having some kind of subscription program as mentioned in an earlier post. I pay $500 (or more) per year and I have a guaranteed slot in the Digital Cinema closest to my home on so-and-such date. Whoever administers the subscription fund would buy screening times in bulk from a group of digital cinemas (about 40 currently in the US but more coming online all the time) instead of setting up sub-standard venues with dodgy equipment and no one to call if the system breaks down. The advantage of a subscription program where theaters are negotiated with is that the theater is top quality and by buying screening times in bulk, I get a decent screening time and don't have to worry so much about the technical details.

Just some thoughts. I think there's something here, just not sure which direction might work. Very interested in other's ideas.

Any chance we can make this a sticky?

Hum, I'm not sure it should be an other film festival, we already have so many of them...
What about making it as a hudge international cine-club, like let's say every rep would have to find an agreement with a local theatre and let's say every Monday or Tuedsday night organize a screening. The theatre would charge the regular price (let's say 10$) 3$ goes to the filmmaker, 3 to the local organizer and 3$ to the theatre, 1$ to the promoton of the next screening (see below).
The think is the screening day would have to be a day that thetares don't have that much attendance...
Then advertizing would include posters, sending e-mails and making phone calls to film critics, maybe also to local distributors (and with time they might write down the weelkly appointment in their agenda...)
Then we should have a website that includes the screenings (dates, cities...) with a synopsis for each film and a press kit. There should be a part in which people can write their opinions on the films (those people who would have attended the screening of a film should be able to write a short critic on it. And, beleive me, the best way to keep your audience is to make them feel responsible for the event, give them a part to play...
Maybe we could aslo organize a vote, for public prizes (in this case there would be no money involved yet), so that at the end of the year, we can
1) organize a vest-of tour...? hmmm
2) send the acclaimed films to films distributors and even if they don't distribute them , they might help financing your next feature...


Anyway, I have many ideas on this question but let me know what you think.

Great ideas all around. We can always count on Clive to start something interesting!

One thing that you all might consider is that you might be able to get an auditorium cheap or free at a local university...and then you also get close to many indie supporters at the school.

Perhaps if your local U has a film department, you could use them as volunteers...running the equipment, selling the refreshments, escorting the filmmakers who attend. You'd want to price it so you have student discounts, so everyone wins, but make sure you advertise outside of the U so it doesn't become a U event. You obviously want to get people from outside the U attending the show too.

Chris

If you blend the concepts of a local film fest and an i-Cinema network that Clive first suggested, you might get the best of both worlds. Promote the festival and solicit short film submissions from the local talent (film schools and other local filmmaking clubs). They will welcome a venue to show their work AND most likely fill the seats with friends and family. That could be the first half of the show. The second half could be devoted to the quality shorts and one feature that are being distributed throughout the network, as per Clive's idea.

OK. When you think about film making long enough you realise that distribution is the key to the whole business. Without a paying audience film making is just an expensive hobby.

I've noticed that of all the topics that get discussed, distribution is the one that perhaps we talk about least. I think this is because although we all know that we can get a camera, write a script, shoot and edit a film, finding a paying audience is the one part of the equation that alludes most indie film makers worldwide.

I'd like us to change that. Seriously.

As a group we are spread all over the world and each of us is part of a larger, local film making community or even just part of a larger community with an interest in films.

I guess I'm wondering whether that is something that we can make work for ourselves.

Could we, for instance, set up our own international distribution circuit, showing indie films from around the world in local venues using video projection and PA's for the sound?

Just to put a perspective on this, most cinemas in the UK are charged $140-$200 a week to rent a film print, plus a percentage of the box office. This is the same whether it's the local mulit-plex or the local arthouse cinema. The problem with getting cinema distribution for indie films is that the film prints are so expensive, that print runs are kept low and this decreases the chances of the distributor making their money back.

So, lets imagine that between us, right now, we can set up ten UK based indie-cinemas (referred to from now on as i-cinema), maybe a couple in Europe, four in Oz and fifty across the US.

Let's say that an i-cinema is a video projector based cinema, in a non-traditional venue that has a showing once a month and that each night shows four shorts and a feature, charging $5 a head.

Providing that you can cut a deal with the venue in that they get to keep the bar receipts and therfore they give you the venue for free (a pretty easy deal to cut), if $100 dollars goes to the films ($80 to the feature, $5 to each of the shorts), therefore if you can get 50 people a month to the event, the organiser has $150 to cover any other expenses/profit.

This would mean that if a feature was shown across the entire network it would bring in $5000.

Now I know that this is small money, but the actual value of this is that you can build the credibilty of the film by opening it up to a global audience. This could be used either to lever a mainstream distribution deal or to drive direct DVD sales from a website.

The goal, of course is to set up a network of several thousand venues worldwide. With several thousand venues the maths gets to the point where distribution by this network alone becomes commercially viable for lo budget films.

Of course, there are issues. Of which the most important is, are there enough films of a high enough quality to build both audience and the reputation of i-cinema? The whole thing will die a death if people aren't stunned by the quality of the films.

So, talk to me. I'm not suggesting we set this up this week. All I'm doing is suggesting that we may have the power to do something about distribution, other than pretent that it isn't an issue. I'm open to ideas, but more importantly let's talk seriously about this subject and what strenghts we have as an international community.

Just to give a clear idea of where this could go, in the US alone, with just ten i-cinema per state, the takings for a feature from one showing across the whole network would be $400,000.

I keep reading this thread and thinking about the idea...

In it's most simplest terms, it sounds similar to a traveling film fest EXCEPT that the facilitators nor the films themselves would be traveling... LOL. I would think that just about any university town would be a good prospect for a venue... I live in Las Cruces, New Mexico USA and I can think of 3 venues right here in a city of less than 100,000 (not to mention the university itself).

I can see this idea running in a similar way a franchise would... i.e., to make sure your possible state venue is SERIOUS, charge an affiliation fee but keep the fee in the realm of reality so that a self starter/go getter could literally create something out of nothing. I also agree with the idea of charging the filmmaker some kind of up front fee for the distribution chain to show his or her film. This way, the organization is making something right off to pay for a web site, DVD copies, posters, etc. etc. All these promotion items would then be available to the venues. A promotional blast of emails, radio spots, etc. could be used to fill the seats... If combined with local filmmaking talent, this could be even easier. I also like what another poster said about getting the audience involved... Making them become part of the process is one way of making the idea work in the long run.

If run correctly, a filmmaker could, in effect, hit each city that his or her film is playing in and make DVDs available for sale OR this could be part of the organization's service in exchange for the up front fee with a percentage going to the filmmaker. Instead of making it just another night at the movies, it would need to become an event. I would love to see something like this running once a week in our city but something tells me it might not fill the seats once a week however, maybe the seats wouldn't need to be filled to show a profit --depends on the venue I suppose.

If consistent advertising could be purchased (newspapers, radio), I could see the majority of the seats being filled here in my city but that's exactly what it would take. Another idea would be getting filmmakers to make appearances and do a Q & A. Most of the audiences I see in indie film theaters are not the usual movie audience... They have a genuine interest in films... Some in filmmaking or some aspect thereof.

Another key would be to pack as much punch in the event as possible yet keeping it down to say... 3 hours or hopefully, less. It's hard to get people to commit that much time on a weekly basis unless they have a reason to really and truly anticipate the event.

I really like the idea of slamming our ideas and thoughts here though... I could also see an organization like this inviting distributors and acquisition exectives that reside in each venue and maybe eventually extending its distribution arm in a way similar to FilmMovement.com (http://www.filmmovement.com) --Lots to think about, that's for sure and one hell of a committment. It would definitely be a full time job.

filmy

All these ideas to me seem possible. aside from having a travelling festival, it would be a guaranteed success, welles used to exhibit some of his films with a travelling roadshow. But for an indie based fest it just seems a bit out of reach. Now one idea that hasnt been touched upon concerning venue is having it as an outdoor event. Tropfest in australia reels in 100,000 every year and its only one night. Now i'm not suggesting anything on that scale. But with an outdoor venue you attract more than just your die-hard film buffs. Families will come, couple, teens to hang out. What this needs to be is not a weekly thing! A yearly festival. Start it small. A park somewhere, two or three films, see where it goes from there. Getting the equipment in an outdoor venue i know is the challenge, but it has been done quite well. I havent fully thought this through yet, seeing as i should be working, but i think having it as an outdoor event will attract a much larger audience. and who wants to start a festival that only manages 50 people a screening anyway.

If you have 50 venues holding 50 people every week, by the end of the year, that's 120,000 people a year who have seen and been a part of independant cinema. If you run that 5 years, that's over half a million people.
If it's about money, it won't work. If it's about passion for cinema, then you have just shown half a million people the power and scope of independant cinema (not to mention advertisers, industry scouts, etc).
Now, the travel and scope is the hard part, but this can't just start as another festival. The whole thing that makes this idea unique is the "gimmick" of the bigger scope. It's almost like a franchise, yes.. but that could be appealing to a lot of sponsors due to the fact that they are getting multiple ads in multiple places for relatively low costs (assuming ths=is can be pulled off cheaply). I do, however agree that this plan needs to start somewhere small... perhaps with a few select cities and grow from there...
I'm sure I can get Toronto... it's only $650 for a weekday (Mon-Thurs) and I'm sure the manager would appreciate an idea like this and possibly lower the price...
I like that "getting filmmakers out" and FAQ's and stuff... we have tons of schools with film departments, and I'm sure if someone approached them with this idea, it would benefit thier curriculum and support our cause.
All we need are the films, the support, the people and the venues.
From there, I think this would really work!

Good work Clive! Look what you've started!!!


-Logan-

Lot's of good ideas here.

I agree with filmjumper that essentially we are looking at a franchise, run by filmmakers for filmmakers.

It seems to me that that as well as running the event the local franchisee could also act as an agent for filmmakers wanting to submit films for distribution via the network.

I think that the key issues here are to make the franchise economically viable for the organiser, to have a bomb proof distribution network and to make sure that quality of the events and the films are such that we have a growing audience rather than a receeding one. These are all fairly interesting issues.

I also agree that we should be seeing this project as a means of drawing attention to high quality indie films that currently are not getting the audiences they deserve. I think the test of the network will be our ability to push unknown films and filmmakers into the mainstream.

I'm going to think some more about this.

To further the idea...

The "franchisee" would surely recieve the film, but the standards of admission should be a panel.
The idea of conventions at major stops would create a large networking feel, and allow the film submitters to meet in person with festival directors.

At every showing, there should be a merchandise booth, displaying both available product (from all major screenings, including short film compilations, and "festival merchandise" eg, T-shirts, hats). The merchandise booth could be run by the franchisee, and he could recieve partial payment from the sales. The DVD sales would go mainly to the filmmakers, with a small commision taken to fund the festival.
I don't know about all theatres, but the one in Toronto (www.bloorcinema.com) does not take a percentage of ticket sales. It's all profit. If there were, say, $5-10 tickets, after the venue price is covered, the festival commitee could pay back a percentage of the sales to the involved feature films.
I'm not sure, but I don't think involving shorts in the "pay-back" clause would be profitable... the exposure is enough, and perhaps they could get percentages off compilations?

That's a whole different ballgame though.. I'm jumping too far ahead. lol. This seems not only to be a great idea, but could be very fun to be involved in.


-Logan-

I think for me the next step is to move away from the global and conceptual and look at it in the real world. So next week I'm going to make some moves to secure a venue in my nearest major city, Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

My first choice is to approach the Baltic, which is a massive new modern art gallery which already has a digital cinema and has just started showing arthouse films in competition with the Tyneside, our local arthouse cinema.

http://www.balticmill.com/

My thinking behind doing this is that by working out the practicalities in this location I can feedback to the forum and we can use that as a starting point for future development of the idea.

Alright- good move. I'll check out the Bloor and inquire about the practicality as well!

www.bloorcinema.com

i'll make the coffee. :D

Can't believe I just now read through this thread! What a superb idea! Here are my thoughts off the top of my head after reading through the thread (nothing deep or long pondered here)

I love the idea of a franchise. I think a fee would be the only viable means to support this sort of structure. Here's one possible implementation:

A franchise setup that basically acts as a distributor. It seeks the best shorts and feature length films to screen at locally setup monthly events around the globe. Each local node would need to be 100% guaranteed though. It would be bad to have people pay for distribution that never occured. Those who are selected pay the requisite fee - something reasonable - to support the various expenses. The selection process would need to occur a good amount of time before the month it is selected to be shown. I can see two ways of handling this. Choose all the necessary films at the beginning of the year (would require a large submission base) or select films on a quarterly (etc) basis. Both would have their advantages and disadvantages. Quarterly (or similar) might be preferable since filmmakers would have more than one shot a year to get into the distribution. Each month the same films are shown at all the locations around the world. Rinse, repeat. Profits made are split between the local chapters, the filmmaker and the overall network.

That's at least one means of doing this inspired by what I have read so for in the thread. By only allowing the best films in for distribution we can better guarantee that people show up every month. The entire structure could perhaps operate as a sort of "confederate states" - each unit is responsible for local expenses, advertising (using some of the submitted fees) but the overall organization is governed by a loose, but firm, command structure.

Just some very bad thoughts off the top of my head late at night.

That makes sense.
There would have to be a "main branch" which would recieve sponsor's money and distribute it among the "chapters" (let's all wear brown cloaks!). The monies should go through a main source (submission fees, advertisers, etc.) That way, it would be better to see the overall situation, and control the funds (no embezzelling people!).
The "chapter" members would be responsible for setting up the dates and times, and running the venues. They would send thier monies to the main branch (perhaps an online account?) and recieve payment through it as well. The funding would be tight, and chapter members may have to put up some funds themselves at first to get the ball rolling, but that's something for later.

About film screenings... I don't think all films should be screened at the same time. A rotation would allow hype to build for selected films, snowballing the effect on the next venue, and so on and so forth. I like the quarterly selection; but there has to be a limit on total number of films per year... unless 2nd bookings in a month were possible... there would have to be a good setting of criteria and standards for films.

This is amazing.

-Logan-

I'm talking to the Baltic next week and also looking into other venues.

However, I want to raise one technical issue. Anyone got any suggestions for the format we should project from.

I think from an ease of distribution and low cost angle DVD would be a possible format. However, it's not great quality for projection.

I'm also condering digi-beta and HDV, but each of those will push up distribution and projection costs dramatically.

Another issue is the old PAL/NTSC thing. Not such an issue for HDV, because the decks will play out either.

Thoughts, anyone.

I've got a venue in our town - a historic 300 seat 1930's era movie house. I talked with the owner and he thinks it's a great idea.

Renting the theater on a prime night (Fri, Sat, Sun) would be expensive. Prohibitively expensive in my opinion. Mid-week is much more reasonable - almost a negligible expense since the house gets the concessions (with a beer and wine bar, too.)

Technically, the theater is only set up for film. Renting, borrowing or buying a high quality DLP projector and decent sound system is an option.

I guess my only reservation would be successfully running mid-week. It's not impossible, but a lot of attention would have to go into local marketing.

I've got a venue in our town - a historic 300 seat 1930's era movie house. I talked with the owner and he thinks it's a great idea.

Wow. That's great news. I hope to have more good news next week.

I think DVD would be the best way to go... it would have to be up to the filmmaker to supply all the desired formats. The best way to go about this is to start as cheap as possible, and work your way up. Since there would be multiple venues, around the world, it would make more sense to have multiple copies, rather than transporting one film can from place to place. Most theatres have that projection ability, and if they don't, they can be rented cheaply.

Check out the Bloor Cinema's interior (interactively) by going here:
http://www.bloorcinema.com/about_bloor.html#
And clicking "Bloor Vision". It's about 835 seats and it has a two tier balcony. Check it out!
I know it's about $650 to rent on a weekday (Mon-Thurs), but you recieve ALL services (projectionist, ushers, etc) and recieve ALL ticket sales (not concession). It's a pretty good deal... maybe he'll even work a deal with us, I'm going in on Monday to ask him what he thinks.


-Logan-

DVD would look pretty bad on a big screen mean for seating 835 people :(

That's a tough problem..

Actually, the projector they have is top-notch, and it projects from the edge of the first balcony... in fact, I saw a snippet of one DVD, and it's not too bad at all!
A little grainy, but nothing that will get annoying- it's not as bad as you might think.

interesting. Good to hear! Does it uprez on the fly?

I think DVD would be the best way to go... it would have to be up to the filmmaker to supply all the desired formats. The best way to go about this is to start as cheap as possible, and work your way up. Since there would be multiple venues, around the world, it would make more sense to have multiple copies, rather than transporting one film can from place to place. Most theatres have that projection ability, and if they don't, they can be rented cheaply.

Check out the Bloor Cinema's interior (interactively) by going here:
http://www.bloorcinema.com/about_bloor.html#
And clicking "Bloor Vision". It's about 835 seats and it has a two tier balcony. Check it out!
I know it's about $650 to rent on a weekday (Mon-Thurs), but you recieve ALL services (projectionist, ushers, etc) and recieve ALL ticket sales (not concession). It's a pretty good deal... maybe he'll even work a deal with us, I'm going in on Monday to ask him what he thinks.


-Logan-

I'd have to agree with using DVDs... At least at first. I have a couple of venues here in town that I know I can already use so that would be no problem... We've projected DVDs at both venues and they compare very nice to projected films... The audience members have never complained. Now VHS is a different story... LOL.

filmy

Yeah I think to start off it would have to be shown either by Video or DVD projection.

Poke

Projection from DVD is less than ideal, although it has advantages, cheap to and safe to transport, cheap to reproduce to mulitiple venues, cheap playout equipment.

I think like all things I think it's one of those things that each venue would need to check and go either yes or no in terms of quality.

I'd still like to think about this for a few days. We're creative technical people there must be a smarter way of doing this.

I didn't read the entire thread, so this may be repetitive. If so, ignore me. :)

However, with regards to venue and cost of equipment.

Most schools have an auditorium of some kind. Many of these are wired for sound, which can be fed from microphones, cd players... or a DVD player. Many schools also have digital projection equipment.

So, the venue solution (to me) seems logical. Go to these schools, and negotiate the 'rental' of their facilities and equipment for one night. For their trouble, they keep half the money from ticket sales. It's not a lot, granted, but it is money the school wouldn't be getting otherwise. Tell the school they can set up a concession and keep all the profits - I know at our social events the Grads always have a concession, and it's one of their major fundraising sources for their Prom. So the school stands to make some money from the deal, and schools always need money.

This would have the added benefit of exposing the films to a more 'mainstream' audience, if the school agreed to advertising (posters etc. in their halls, for example). If you expand that to posters in other schools, you have quite a large market to tap into.

And, if the movies are good, it may become a regular social event. Do it on a Tuesday night or something and don't run to late, so kids who have nothing else to do anyway go. I imagine it would also encourage students in the schools to get into film, to have their movies shown. And on and on.

Film schools would (possibly) jump at the chance. It would be a great way to go!
Perhaps if they supplied the equipment, and we allowed film students to have free access (and get money off of the public), that might be a good way to test this idea.
It would give a good opportunity for students to see examples of independant film, and learn, while cost-effectively starting this idea.

I've done some thinking and realised that to work there needs to be two things.

1) A distribution system that is set up to provide indie films of a high quality for showing in a variety of digital venues worldwide. That this distribtion system has to give the possibilty(Without guranteeeing) for any filmaker to get their in front of a paying audience.

2) A worldwide network of digital cinemas, which could run in any of the above options from a film-school venue, to
an arthouse cinema, a bar or any other venue that works for that area.

These two systems need the following

1a) A group of people or organisation prepared to adminster the distribution system. (This would proabaly mean, reviewing tapes sent in by film-makers, sending out regular e-mails to the cinema organisers with info about those, taking orders from those owners and shipping out the copies of the films)
1b) A supply of GREAT indie films

2a) People prepared to run an i-cinema in their area (Who can determine for themselves the best place and way to run it in their area)

2b) A delivery method suitable to the venue



Personally I think DVD projection is a simple pragmatic solution, but I'd still like to find something more elegant. Leave it with me. I'm putting a lot of thought into this right now.

Depending upon a number of factors, you could project from miniDV. You would need to find someone willing to rent/lend a DVD deck or video camera (but preferably a deck). But the problem there is the length of the DV tape... even if you put the feature on its own tape it'll probably run more than 60 minutes.

DVD projection is the logical choice, as I see it.

I don't think miniDV would be a good idea. It's a lot of trouble and doesn't really provide a benefit over DVD.

I agree with Shaw, miniDV offers a much lower resolution than DVD. I've projected both and miniDV really falls apart when projected in even small venues.

If we had to go down a tape option digibeta is by far the best SD option, as it's industry standard and it is great for retaining information. Ideally a I'd like to use a HD format, because then you are looking at proper cinema grade images. However the cost issues become very, very real when you are looking at large scale distribution of digibeta tapes.

Personally, I'm going to test a DVD projection at my prefered venue this Friday and see what it looks like.

Clive does the projector there automatically upres when projecting? I'm just curious because I know some do and some do not which will affect the look on screen.

I'd love to project HD too but I honestly can't think of an economical way to do it. I can do it with a laptop and projector but not everyone has access to the necessary tools and distributing HD content is harder.

I'm not even sure which projector they're using. I'll let you know whether it upres' or not.

The UK film council just funded a series of HD cinemas and they're paying £100,000 per cinema for the decks and projectors. The tape stock alone is prohibitively expensive.

I think that for this kind of idea it's important to keep things as simpleand low cost as possible and DVD is that format. The only other possibility I see is an MP2 at about the same res as DVD or maybe slightly better, this could be played off a laptop.

But, depending on the file size of said video file, it's still going to have to go to CD or DVD as a file. And with the same level of resolution once projected (give or take), it seems a lot of extra, unnessary steps, and a lot more that can go wrong.

The only thing to make sure of would be that the DVD players reader + and - DVDs, or make people burn one of each and send both.

But, depending on the file size of said video file, it's still going to have to go to CD or DVD as a file. And with the same level of resolution once projected (give or take), it seems a lot of extra, unnessary steps, and a lot more that can go wrong.

Actually having them as MP2's removes most of the distribution problems, because the films could be stored on an FTP server and each organiser could download their selection rather than having to have a person co-ordinate the distribution of the films.

My only concern is whether this kind of system would be robust.

Well, in order to keep a thing like this alive, there has to be rules, or guidelines, if you will.
There has to be a line between quality of film and quantity. We should discuss that.
I can see local filmmakers and thier friends/families attending thier local showing, but after the film goes through the network- there needs to be an audience at the other venues. Granted, there will be regulars, but not enough (I think) to completely fund this idea... that's more of a reason to target areas with film schools. Ideally, if we can get cities with high populations of filmmakers, and advertise this idea to filmmakers primarily (along with independant buffs), we might be able to get a sustainable audience... the problem lies in getting people every month, for every film. I think it should be up to each organizer to determine the format they need. Once a consensus of majority is reached, the proper format should be chosen. I know the cinema in Toronto supports all formats... I could download here and burn to DVD- easy and quick solution... or if something better comes along, it can be accomodated.
The best way to start this is with a cheap and easy solution, and work from there.
Funding: Who do we turn to for sponsors? How do we raise money otherwise? Any ideas?
Rules/Guidelines: What constitutes a film worthy of submission? What limitations do we impose?
Format: Download to Dvd? What is the most COMMON way of showing this?
Audience: Where do we target our audience? What incentives do they get for coming? There has to be some sort of bonus other than the movies... if we can get guests of importance, or have a prize system... something to make it really seem like a special event.

And furthermore... if we have some form of voting system in place for a year-end contest (basically a festival in the traditional sense) and have winners, you will maintain a better audience return, because filmmakers will come back next week to see thier competitors, or try and vote against them (lol... fighting dirty). By having the sense of a prolonged, year-long fesitval, I think there will be more interest... kind of like a "Tune in next month..." sort of feeling.

Discuss.

-Logan-

Hi Guys

I visited the Baltic yesterday, very interesting. They have a 54 seat cinema and a space that can be converted to seat 250. Both already have digital projectors. In fact the 54 seater has 16mm projection and the large space has 35mm.

The costs of hiring is too much for this project, but I'm going in again to talk to their programming team and I may be able to get them to give me the space for free.

I've got other options, but this is my favorite because this is a venue with an international reputation and it's just stunning.

More later.

Very impressive venue, Clive.

I spoke again with the owner of our local Community Theater and he's quite interested in the idea. We discussed the idea of having a "whole weekend" festival and we may be able to have the theater for greatly reduced (or no) cost.

There are several film festivals in Boston - but outside the city it's pretty barren. I'll get some pictures of the theater and post them this week, it's a pretty nice place. Not quite as impressive as the Baltic, but it has a quaint charm.

look into Arenas Entertanment

I would imagine lots of (most?) bigger cities have some kind of small, independent cinema. Perhaps approaching them about the project would be the most effective means of getting the video out? The producer gets the ticket sales, and the theatres gets the concession (which is where they make all their money anyway).

I'd have to check and see if anyone in town is set up for digital projection, but it certainly can't hurt to ask around, can it?

It is possible to wrangle a bunch of art houses into a "network" of venues, but this legwork is what distributors already do for their own pictures. Theatres will always have the issue of a limited # of films they can show during any given week.

There are so many festivals out there that they form a distribution network unto themselves, except that they don't really pay filmmakers anything. I have been hoping that a bunch of festivals will band together for more cable channels (similar to Sundance channel). Any film accepted to the fest can also get the option of play on television for revenue. (Some films will not want or need this, but it would be a great thing to offer).

I think the best hope for indie cinema is to take it where the audience is.. at home. Pay per view, more indie film channels, etc. etc. all have plenty of room for growth.

I would dearly like to know more about the financials of starting a cable channel or making any given indie film available for pay per view.

Unfortunately, many festivals out there are taking filmmakers for a profitable ride, along with withoutabox.com - I use their service, but I also know they are reaping obscene profits from filmmakers.

It is possible to wrangle a bunch of art houses into a "network" of venues, but this legwork is what distributors already do for their own pictures. Theatres will always have the issue of a limited # films they can show during any given week.

There are so many festivals out there that they form a distribution network unto themselves, except that they don't really pay filmmakers anything. I have been hoping that a bunch of festivals will band together for more cable channels (similar to Sundance channel). Any film accepted to the fest can also get the option of play on television for revenue. (Some films will not want or need this, but it would be a great thing to offer).

I think the best hope for indie cinema is to take it where the audience is.. at home. Pay per view, more indie film channels, etc. etc. all have plenty of room for growth.

I would dearly like to know more about the financials of starting a cable channel or making any given indie film available for pay per view.

Unfortunately, many festivals out there are taking filmmakers for a profitable ride, along with withoutabox.com - I use their service, but I also know they are reaping obscene profits from filmmakers.

That's a great idea Per. If this gets off the ground, we could start with some of the regulars: Bravo, HBO, Showtime, Sundance, Independent Film Network, etc.

I still think that this thing could fly.

Chris

Getting an i-cinema chain to be economic for all parties involved is marginal at best and I think filmscheduling has a good point. I think the choke point is always going to be who actually organsies the distribution and what they get for their trouble (It's a full time job for someone)

The cabel channel idea is a good one. I'll look into the UK issues.

Just to let you guys know that I haven't forgotten this thread, I've just been tied up on other things. Plus I'm still thinking aobut all the input and trying to tie the ideas together into a workable formula. I think I'm almost there with it.

I'm a newbie to the forum. I have acting and primitive documentary experience, but little actual distribution experience--but let me throw in a couple of observations.

First, there is no reason why a group of us could not form a production company at very little expense. There is no reason why we could not produce films at reasonable expense. Just think of all the equipment and talent that would be accessible in such a company. And, investors like to deal with well-formed legal entities rather than loose groups of wannabies. Having a corporate structure can mean a lot when negotiating with lenders and investors.

And, Clive is absolutely right about one thing: you must have QUALITY or you lose respect with the distribution companies and their outlets. You can film the sleaziest and most campy script in the world, but it must be filmed professionally with good acting, sound, etc.

And, there is the question of what kind of ownership you want to preserve when dealing with distributors. I recall, for example, that Al Adamson and Sam Sherman, two of the great exploitation film producers ("Girls for Rent" and "I Spit on Your Corpse") have repeatedly said that filmmakers should preserve TOTAL ownership in their films. These two successful producers would sell the distribution rights to their exploitation films to distribution companies for a term of years (usually 5 years). This way, after the leasing distribution company petered-out on its effort, the film returned to the owners (where it could be modified as a re-release). Sherman and Adamson would sit on the returned film for a year or so and then sell another term of years to another distributor. Their low-budget films are still being seen all over the world in smaller movie houses, and they have entered the DVD market. Sherman will quickly tell you not to ever sell away the rights to your film. Lease it, but do not sell it. So, with this in mind, and in consideration of the excellent comments by Clive, I would suggest that the formation of such an entity should first consider exactly what kind of ownership of the finished film is to be considered. If several of us syndicate a legal entity in which we all own an interest, we should commit to producing high quality fims as well as also preserving the total ownership rights in the films. The term of years contract protects the producer/owner when the distributor has financial problems, goes bankrupt, merges or is bought-out by another company. Companies are bellying-up everywhere, and we should be careful about allowing any distributor too much control. The term of years agreement solves most of these issues. Al Sherman said that the only thing a film producer really has of value is the ownership in his copyrighted product.

The really sticky part of such a venture would be how people would contribute to the corporate effort to produce films. There are many people who would want to be a part of such an entity. There would have to be developed some kind of control as to how film makers would participate in the films. I look at it as sort of a "cooperative" in the same sense as farm cooperatives, grocery buying cooperatives, etc. There are membership fees with a board of directors that guides the entity.

You can see it might be a sticky issue when we have to determine who will actually have control of the selection process as to which films go to production, and who actually gets to write, act, film, etc. during the production. These issues are not insurmountable, however, they will simply take some thought. We have all seen what happens when CEOs feel their company is simply a source for enormous salaries and Golden Parachute termination contracts. The movie industry is full of these parasitical people. We would need to devise some method by which the leaders of the entity were under tight control as to salary and the owners received reasonable dividends. By retaining all rights, monies would continually flow into the entity. A percentage of this income could be banked for support of future films.

I hope this comment gives you all some food for thought.

Wild Bill

Unless a film is fully financed by a studio, Producers almost always retain the rights to their productions. Currently distribution licenses usually start at 5 years in length and work there way up (this is negoitable). Most of these agreements have minimum performance clauses that will cause the distribution deal to be void should the distributor not meet the agreed upon revenue numbers. They may also trigger extensions should the distributor meet/exceed the agreed revenue levels (all negoitable). Minimum guarantees (money paid upfront by distributors to producer) also act as an incentive for distributors to meet the agreed upon goals. The more money you get them to pay upfront the harder they hustle to make it back. Of course the more upfront money, the longer the want the film's distribution rights.

There is a lot of useful distribution information availble at this entertainment lawyer's website. You have to dig around a bit.

http://www.marklitwak.com

I think this whole idea is really exciting. I think the 'franchise' type approach with independent operators afilliating to the scheme and putting on shows where ever they can, from the back room of a pub to a fully equipped cinema. Running a scheduled list of films every month or two weeks which rotates through the network. If there is a sign up fee or similar that could be used for admin and central advertising (branding and awareness), with operators putting on their own local advertising (taking advantage of any brand awareness developed), whether i-cinema, underdog independents or whatever. I'd be interested in getting involved, even though the only venues I think I would initially be able to get interested would be pubs.

This project hasn't gone away, it's just shuffled down the list whilst I take care of more pressing matters.

Keep watching this space for more later in the year.

Can't wait to hear your solution, Clive. The main problems I'm seeing are:
1) Getting an audience.
2) Getting funding to rent the venues
3) Controlling the returning funds

Hmmm... I'll think more... I'm heading out to my cinema now, I might ask around.

Actually I think it bears doing a bit of research on concert promotions and touring. By aligning with a promoter for the film(s) to be shown in x venue, you share the risk in every market. Customarily the promoter already has the relationships needed with the venue and the marketing/ advertising pipeline set up plus the ability to pre-sell tickets. Some artists do more than one show in a market in the same day, so could the film be shown more than once. Those same artists rotate in and out of major markets more than once a year building a bigger buzz to get into larger and larger venues. Why not do the same thing with the film(s). Most tours have an opening act and then THE big name... If you are getting the picture and it all makes sense to what you are talking about doing feel free to PM me or respond to the thread and I can get into more details.

Rock on! ~ Susan

Is this thread still active? If it is, I think most indy movie makers would be interested in some variatin of the basic idea. Do it Yourself. That's the way we made the movie. (I want to include digital video in with film.)

My suggestion: Somebody could set up a sign-up page. All interested idies indicate their willingness to work with the group. See how many you get and see what happens. After an initial period, ask for donations or some minimal joining fee--$5 or $10. If it's too high, the biggies will overpower it.

Have any of you heard of or used: http://www.indieblaster.com/ ?

I remember when it was first being formed/starting up.

Have any of you heard of or used: http://www.indieblaster.com/ ?

I remember when it was first being formed/starting up.

Looking over thier site, it seems to me they are charging upwards of thousands of dollars for a total wank-job.

They send out mass emails, create small "fan" sights, and try and load up your indie flick with as much fake-positive bullshit hot air publicity...

Thank you, but I am fully capable of blowing hot steam up my own arse!!

Who here would pay $30,000 (3 times the budget of our feature) to have some company write fake "positive" reviews on IMDB, send out spam to people's junk filters, spam messages boards like this, and vote the best rating for your movie on IMDB several time (what a crock!)

Uh- no thank you!

I wouldn't pay more than $100-200 for "Online Buzz"...

LOL!

I TOTALLY agree!

With PR Web and multiple other avenues there's no reason to pay that much for that service. I remember when they were talking about it, it would be a share type concept. But those prices are outrageous!

I guess that if someone had the money for that service, they may not be too struggling.

Emailing 14,000 people and making a couple fan sites and blah blah blah.... YES that will get a buzz... but is it a legitamite buzz?
I don't think so... you paid for the buzz and it would suck if it was found out to be false.


BUT they've been around for a few years and I know of one person that used them, so I don't know what the deal is... that's why I asked if anyone used them... For me, I would rather spent $30,000 on a couple of productions, not advertising.

I would not pay for that type of buzz either. Would love to try and create it though.

It's still very tough to get the word out when you don't have an advertising team or mindset.

Filmmakers need to partner with Marketing gurus before they even shoot a thing.

-Martin

Btw- My film 'Behind the Nine' is available currently at NETFLIX so if you're so inclined, put it in your queue and spread the word. Thanks.

In the UK Odeon cinemas now have digital projection which they use for subtitling features. It links into the surround sound and projects on the screen. We screened the DVD of 'Left For Dead' on the big screen (biggest in Sussex) to 500 people and I have to say (and I know this sounds odd) but the film looked BETTER on the big screen than it does on DVD on a HD ready LCD TV.

I don;t know WHY this was the case it should have been grainy but it wasn't.

I've read through all the posts. I'm intrigued by the concept, very much so. Some of the ideas are a bit too communal / arty to be realistic, but I'm thinking a couple of things:

1) This would only work as a franchise system. Setting up a franchise system takes care of most of the issues you guys are talking about in regards to renting houses, etc. You get the franchisee to purchase a theater or build one.

2) Format of the films would work perfectly well in a franchise system, the franchisee buys a good high-res LCD projector and a specific computer with a super-fast hard drive, and the films are downloaded off an FTP server in a high-def format.

3) Tickets are generated through a software system that the franchise company provides, and this keeps track of the tickets. When tickets are sold / printed, the corporate office knows about it and it's automatically entered into the accounting.

4) Like in a franchise system, money earned from ticket sales is distributed back to the filmmaker through the corporate office.

I'm definitely going to think through this some more. I know some VC people, this might actually be worth pursuing / building a business plan for.

You'd have to realize though, that in the franchise world, the corporate office only gets in about 10-15% royalties. In this case, the corporate office would also be supplying the product, so it could be possible for filmmakers to make some decent money off the concept through the ticket sales.

Then there's concessions, etc. A doable idea, definitely.

I'm glad you're here Ladd.

We've had a few chat sessions about this subject. Although the word franchise didn't come up, some of the discussions were talking about regional agents. I suppose those could be considered franchises.
This discussion starts up,, then dies, then starts up again. Then only a few joing in the chats.
I started working on contacting some major companies as well as local Chicagoland ones. Most were receptive to the idea of showing Indie Films.
In the short term, I started designing and working on distribution via internet/podcast. This will allow filmmakers another way to make money. Then the next phase would be theatrical release.
I'm down to get this topic on fire again and come to some REAL plan!

In the short term, I started designing and working on distribution via internet/podcast. This will allow filmmakers another way to make money. Then the next phase would be theatrical release.
I'm down to get this topic on fire again and come to some REAL plan!

Hey Coot -

Well, I think there's some issues with doing distribution via internet/podcast. You have to think of the thing as a true business venture. When you go the Internet route, there's so many obstacles to actually making money (especially with the number of players already in the field) that you're not going to get very far, I fear.

I also think that approaching existing theater chains is a non-starter. Those guys have their own way of doing things and REAM you when it comes to renting out their space (as everyone's toe-dipping investigations have discovered).

No, I think the way to go is to set up a corporate franchise system that allows entrepreneurs to pay you a fee and put up their own money to build the space, buy the equipment, and hook into the distribution system. And the corporate office has to do a lot of work for them to make it worth their while. I've got some ideas on that. Been involved in a couple of franchise concepts before, I know how to lay the groundwork.

And on top of that, there needs to be a serious "hook" to the system, a serious catch that goes beyond just indie distribution of films or electronic distribution. It has to make money for that entrepreneur, after all. Indie filmmakers are a notoriously fickle bunch, and it wouldn't be the sort of thing that I think the indie filmmakers themselves could actually get up and going and keep running smoothly. They're busy doing their films, after all.

I think I'd be very interested in doing the business plan, getting the corporate side of it set up. The real trick is, there would need to be an angel investor to put up enough to launch the corporate side, build the prototype corporate "store," generate numbers to demonstrate to a franchisee that it would be worth their while, and so forth.

Franchises, when built properly, can get big very quickly and profitable very quickly.

I think it's very doable if an angel could be found to launch it and fund all of that groundwork.

Another alternative is to make a new C-Corp and get a bunch of low-dollar folks to purchase stock and be on the board of directors.

You can't sell shares very easily in the U.S. thanks to the S.E.C. being a pain in the butt. You have to qualify investors and spend an incredible amount of money on attorneys and what not to keep your nose clean. However, the founding members of a company don't have to be qualified, it can be regular joes like you and me.

You're talking about setting up your own theater? That seems a little much there!
I know what you mean about indiefilmmakers wanting to make their films and not having the time or resources to build a business. However, for me, I'm launching a business very soon and have 2 others ready to launch this year. I have always had my own business, ever since the age of 13.

As for the theaters, I have spoken to a few chains who were interested in this project. We never talked about money or anything, just interest and possiblilty. There was no talk about renting the theater space and paying them to show the film. It was more along the lines of a share % of the ticket sales.

I think that a corporate structure is good. I do not think that getting a large space, hundreds of chairs, sound equipment, lighting, screens, and projectors is the way to go. You're talking at least tens of thousands of dollars, PLUS a franchise fee.

Perhaps I'm not getting your concept, but if you want to write the business plan, or discuss it more, I'd love to.

Oh, theaters are not a big deal to build in existing space. But no, the corporate office would build only one. Franchisees build the rest.

You've almost got the concept, but not quite. I don't think a big theater is the way to go. Small ones, in retail space. And it wouldn't be a straight theater, either... not in the traditional sense.

Theater chains have other issues, most notably, you're competing with the big films. So it's the sort of thing that means you end up becoming a traditional film distributor with the twist of revenue sharing, if I understand you correctly. Some chains will do that, most won't. They're hurting enough as it is with revenue and attendance dropping exponentially. You'll end up nipping after them like a poodle at their heels. Most will likely express interest because they want to be nice guys, but most likely won't sign on the dotted line.

I'm not saying that what you're talking about won't work, but I think it's limiting and fraught with numerous risks. Depending upon those guys for income can be extremely dangerous. You're basically becoming a distributor, next to all the others, trying to get your product into their stores. And then you'll end up getting roped into the same issues that all distributors have, namely:

1) Who's in the film?
2) What's your marketing budget?
3) How much can you chip in on marketing?

And so on, same as every distributor. And you'll be dealing with technical hassles of interfacing with their systems. Some have electronic distribution, others don't, and the ones that do haven't settled down on a standardized system. Regal's got their own stuff, Cinema King's got another, etc. etc. The only thing that's standard for the chains is 35mm film, and that's too expensive for the indie.

Hmmm, I think I may very well write out this business plan. Tell you what, I'll PM you when I get it done.

Well, I'm launching a web hosting company very soon. I have space for download/distro of the film electronically via FTP or other means.

I think you've got something there on the distribution method! What kind of bandwidth are you going to have for your web hosting company? Are you doing colocation and all that kind of thing or piggy-backing on someone else's datacenter? The reason I ask is because I co-founded a company called ResPower, which sold computing power over the Internet to 3D animation studios, like utilities sell electricity. When I was there I had to deal with data center issues. We had about 750 computers.

P.S. I'm quite serious about doing the business plan, and I will send you a copy of it for feedback. I think the system can definitely work if tweaked properly.

Right now we're co-lo with a company in San Jose, CA and they connect right into the backbone at the MAE West NAP.
We;re going to be getting our own racks, servers, and a 1gig pipe direct sometime in the near future. We have a few TBs of space right now.

No, I think the way to go is to set up a corporate franchise system that allows entrepreneurs to pay you a fee and put up their own money to build the space, buy the equipment, and hook into the distribution system. And the corporate office has to do a lot of work for them to make it worth their while. I've got some ideas on that. Been involved in a couple of franchise concepts before, I know how to lay the groundwork.

I think there is an inherrent flaw in the franchise option.

The advantage of a franchise to the franchisee is that they are buying into an established brand, that has been built by the home office. The customer looking for a McDonalds Big Mac can walk into any franchise in the world with a complete undertstanding of the product.

Even mainstream cinemas are currently stuggling to stay solvent and in terms of product they have all the well established, branded products.

Indie cinema distribution is niche rather than a mass market industry, you can't build a brand because each film has to be marketed as an individual product. The cinema space itself holds no inherrent brand values, and what value it does offer the customer is in providing a level of delivery that can't be reproduced at home.

The biggest problem is that the best indie product will always graviatate to traditional distribution methods, because it's the gateway to significant money and traditional distribution opens other doors.

Seriously, delivery isn't the issue -- it's product and marketing.

I've been looking at this issue for two years now and the truth is that in all that time no one has come to me with a even one film that I believed would support this kind of concept.

The only way I could see a cinema franchise working is if it offered a service to a specific niche audience -- so if someone was to get cinema distribution rights to all Manga Films and opened a chain of city Manga e-cinemas designed to cater to the specific needs of that client group, with an attached bookshop/DVD store. That's a possible franchise.

In many respects great franchises are like movies -- they need to be High Concept!

Right Clive!

And that's why I started designing FilmPod/IndieFlics, to make a name. While the internet distribution works and becomes more recognizable, discussing contract negotiations with chains will commence.
Short films would be released in a feature length "Pod" to the theaters, as well as nicely made features.

But what you're saying is right, the films have to be the quality to be theater/cinema viewable. If we want the public to see indie films, they need to be as good as what they are used to.

I've done random surveys at theaters and most of the people I talked to, 85% to 90%, all said that they would more want to see an independent film. They say that they're just not available to them.

So we need to make them available.

The only way I could see a cinema franchise working is if it offered a service to a specific niche audience -- so if someone was to get cinema distribution rights to all Manga Films and opened a chain of city Manga e-cinemas designed to cater to the specific needs of that client group, with an attached bookshop/DVD store. That's a possible franchise.

In many respects great franchises are like movies -- they need to be High Concept!

Believe it or not, we're actually on the same page there. I was thinking for my particular concept a bookshop/DVD/CD store, coffee, adult beverages, and a restaurant-as-theater.

There have been successfull theaters that have taken the restaurant concept to great effect. In fact I helped put one together in New Orleans a decade ago. It's long gone now, of course (Katrina).

This franchise would then show indie films, as well as showing older films, film festivals, that kind of thing.

I would also make it audience participatory. For instance, consider this concept:

A week long festival throughout all chains, in which audience members get to vote on their favorites. The winner of the festival gets a prize. Go for the whole "Idol" concept. The votes could even be tallied electronically after the films have shown (if you have an electronic distribution method, the votes could be shown on the big screen after the films).

And of course, you'd offer door prizes.

And you'd do the opposite of what most theaters do - one movie after another, pushing the audience in and out as quick as possible. I'd stick to one showing a night, and the rest of the evening is mingling and eating and drinking, and talking about the films.

So yes, high concept is the way to go. I'd call it "Critic's Corner", perhaps.

This, and more, I'm putting into the business plan.

how about "Citizen Critic" ;)

Citizen Critic is cool

What about just one word: Critics'

Although if it was called Critics Corner, people could just call it Critics for short.

American Critic? If you're "Idol"izing it.

Serve American food.

But now you're talking about someone needing to get a space, food service permits, Chefs kitchen, and all of that jazz.
You're looking at $100,000 start up capital at least.

All that just to show indie films.

How does the Indie make money?

$100k, no, I think it would be closer to $75k, depending upon the space. But this is in line with what the typical franchise costs - for instance, a Subway or other franchise usually goes for around $125k. Lot of money for an indie filmmaker. Not a lot of money for someone to hook up with a franchise. Usually franchisees will finance it through a bank or other lending institution.

The Indie makes money through ticket sales, DVD sales, etc. The only difference being that there is a spot dedicated specifically to their work. No needing name actors and whatnot. The head office then becomes an evangelizer for the indie filmmaker.

Granted, the concept is not really for indie filmmakers to pursue. Then again, I never thought that indie filmmakers are the ones to actually buy into a franchise. Nevertheless I think the concept has fiscal merit for the indie filmmaker, because approaching the head office then becomes a simple and easy method for them to get their films out there, without having to go through an ardous process.

In a sense, a branded, ongoing, world-wide festival is created to rival the geographically centristic festivals. While those festivals are all well and good, they happen once a year and they are usually formed to assist the local city or state's tourism industry. Not really focused on the filmmaker.

As for the name, I think I'm still going to stick to Critic's Corner... targets the right age and income levels, I think.

It's true that this business franchise isn't for the indie filmmaker. Many of us barely have money to make our films! lol

I like the idea of all places showing the same film on the same night and the audience getting a chance to vote.

Are you talking about a 5 star method or a 1 to 10 method? If there's only one film per night, then they wouldn't have anything to compare it to.

I know that you're developing a business plan, and I'd love to help out with it. Some questions to think about answering too.

Who will decide which submitted Indie Film will get viewed in all the locations?

How many locations will be part of the start up?


Are you stating that you're charging $75k as a franchise fee?

Are you talking about a 5 star method or a 1 to 10 method? If there's only one film per night, then they wouldn't have anything to compare it to.

I was thinking you'd do one or two short films then a feature. Depends upon what's available. And then maybe do a 1-10 "thumbs up" or something. That way the audience feels like "the critic."


Who will decide which submitted Indie Film will get viewed in all the locations?


I don't know. I suppose the corporate office for the franchise. Might be a way to involve the customer with the choices, I'll have to mull that over as I write it.


How many locations will be part of the start up?


That depends upon how many franchisees will step up to the plate. Part of the idea of franchises is that you open the doors as quickly as possible in as many locations as possible. Takes a lot of strategic and logistic planning. Ideally you'd have one location in every major U.S. territory within a year of two's time.



Are you stating that you're charging $75k as a franchise fee?
I don't know exactly what the fee would be yet. Will have to crunch some serious numbers.

Usually, the way a franchise works is that you pay around $10-$15k to the company, then royalties after the fact. The rest of the money is usually a baseline budget that the potential franchiser has to have in order to sign up. All depends on the system that's worked out. Usually the potential franchiser has to qualify, in a similar method to how an investor has to be fully qualified in a private placement memorandum.

You basically have to demonstrate to the franchise corporate office that you can afford to do X, Y, and Z. Usually the up-front fee to the corporate office is for various franchise deliverables (signs, training, manuals, market studies, assistance picking location, etc.). Some franchises are there the whole way, holding hands; others remain fairly distant. All depends upon the business and how difficult it is to get it started.

I think this is interesting in a whole host of areas. Having software there at the get-go for accounting purposes would be crucial to making it fly, not just for ticket sales but for concessions. Most franchises don't do very well in that regards, and you're on your own in regards to accounting and calculating royalty fees.

I think that the "critics" could actually become members (possible revenue source) and login to a critic machine, in the Critics' Corner, and vote and write a review. The one that the local place decides is the best, gets sent to Corporate and they vote on the best of the best and they get an award. Like free lunch, coffee, whatever... That will keep them comming back and become part of a community.

I'm still not convinced, the indie films will always be the weak link in the concept.

However, if you want a franchise film/restaurant concept I'll give you one for free.

Ditch the indie film element, except as a one a month specialist evening -- instead use your projection gear to combine fast food, booze and videoke --- buy a burger and a few beers and then you and your mates can ADR the voices to famous scenes from classic films which are projected onto the wall.

Who wouldn't enjoy going out and doing a scene from Cassablanca ...

High concept -- Karoke for film freaks in a fun film restaurant.

Feel free to get rich off this one, just remember that you need to write in a clause that I can eat in any franchise branch for free, worldwide and perpetuity. :lol:

Ha! You may be right. I'd actually do retro festivals in the place - Citizen Kane, that kind of thing.

Still, it might be fun. I'm going to crunch the numbers to see.