How Important is Dialogue?

dialogue. eh. dialogue is a device that can actually drive the story (as opposed to action) but it takes a skillful hand and a talented writer to be able to pull it off.

the nuts and bolts of cinematic storytelling are action, action, and more action. i try to minimize dialogue to exposition and concentrate on action (not a "blow up explosions kung fu" kind of action) to tell the story and round out the characters.

obvious example: would you rather listen to two people telling each other how much they love each other? or just watch them have sex instead?

just my take...

Let me be more specific.

I'm not really wondering about dialogue vs action. I think it's a given that actions speak louder than words. And any good screenwriter knows to "Show it, don't tell it."

I am wondering about "rewriting over and over again until you get the dialogue right" vs "throwing some words on the page and letting the actors deal with it."

Poke

Poke said:

Let me be more specific. I'm not really wondering about dialogue vs action, I am wondering about "rewriting over and over again until you get the dialogue right" vs "throwing some words on the page and letting the actors deal with it."

Poke

Click to expand...

hmmm...definitely is a more interesting question. i'll have to sleep on that one!

Poke said:

I am wondering about "rewriting over and over again until you get the dialogue right" vs "throwing some words on the page and letting the actors deal with it."

Poke

Click to expand...

For me it is immensely important for several reasons. The most memorable scenes for me have been flooded with fantastic dialogue. I have been known to rewrite dialogue night after night - because great lines and great exchanges stay with you. Who can forget in Double Indemnity when Walter and Phyllis meet at her house and go through that conversation about giving her a ticket? Father Ted, one of the greatest comedy series of all time, its concept - 3 priests on an isolated Irish island, but with the dialogue - unforgettable ('Ming the Merciless' etc - oh god, brilliant!!).
I have been known to do both sides of the 'versus'. I will rewrite and rewrite till I feel that my dialogue reveals the tragedy, the themes that I wish to reveal. I have also been known, once I have gotten the shot I want, to allow actors to ‘free wheel’ and do what they want. I have total confidence in the actors in my plays/films because we normally spend 2days to a week living as the characters (hilarious when its about Hitler ) in public.
In my opinion, the actors can get it just as right as I, for I have no ownership of the characters - if I felt that way, than I don't think I should be making films with other people. Its about doing both, inviting input to then come up with better dialogue. I believe in film as partnership, and sometimes 'letting the actors deal with it', or anyone else, can be the best way to create the best possible dialogue.
Having said that, if the lines in Double Indemnity had been written by the actors and not Wilder and Chandler, if I think it would have been pretty bad. In short, its contingent on relationship with actors, and what they can offer.

Hey Poke, good question.

From my POV it depends on whether your intention is to shoot the film yourself with actors who will come on board regardless, or whether you intendtion is to sell the script or attract a better qulaity actor who doesn't already know you.

There are many film makers who never write a script as such, but who go out with a rough story outline, improv the scenes with the actors and build the dialogue in rehearsal. In a sense the actors write the dialogue. Mike Leigh is the most famous of this kind of director and as it happens it's the approach I'm taking on my next project. I know a lot of people here, who know my work, will find this odd because my reputation here is primarily for writing great dialogue. It's a creative decision though and right for the project.

I think if anyone else is going to need to read the film, investors, actors you need to impress to bring them on board, anyone who can say yes or no to the project greenlighting then you have to get the dialogue right. the reason for this is that the dialogue is the reader's window into the character, how they speak and what they say tells us who they are. In my opinion that's all dialogue should do. It should be a window into what kind of person the character is at this moment. The act of watching a film is the audience's attempt to unravel the characters.
I know that a film should contain two times as much description as it does dialogue, but in real terms it is the dialogue that determines the reader's relationship with the script.

Short answer, yes it's important unless you want to improv the scenes and then it's not.

clive said:

Hey Poke, good question.

From my POV it depends on your intention...... it's important unless you want to improv the scenes and then it's not.

Click to expand...

I think that is what defines your relationship to your actors.
I said it is contingent on your relationship with them, and Clive has said what that in turn, i think, is dependent on.

Talk about showing me up................

Poke, I'd say that Clive has, once again, hit the nail on the head.

Of course all that comes with the standard disclaimer that "your mileage may vary" because, as the creative force behind the script, you're the one best qualified to know when dialogue re-writes border on obsessive/compulsive.

There's a compromise solution: a staged reading. I've done a couple of these for a playwright friend during play development. Get some folks together (try a local community theater group, they'd love it) and have them deliver the lines with some rough blocking. It really helps clarify how effective the dialogue is - and gives the added dimension of movement and blocking... without the formality of rehearsing with the cast.

Just a handy suggestion, maybe it'll work for you.

Staged reading - Yes, I wish I'd remembered to mention that. Nothing shows up poor dialogue like a staged reading.

The other thing about dialogue is that after your first draft, go back and halve the dialogue. Take 50% out. My experience of working with writers is that usually the good dialogue is there, but it's buried under all the cliched stuff.

The other thing is, am I the only person here who works with a professional script editor as part of their development process. In my opinion no feature writer should be without one. I pay her £300/$600 a day to work with me and she's worth every penny. Normally there is about three days work involved in going from draft one to draft three. I know a $1,800 investment in a script may sound a lot but really it's much cheaper than production costs on a script that isn't ready.

This is all good stuff. The kind of discussion I was wanting to start. Personlly I like the general rule of second draft = first draft - 50% of the dialogue. I like to say "trim the fat," or say what needs to be said in the smallest amount of words as possible.

And good dialogue comes in the second and subsequent drafts. Don't get too particular about dialogue in the first draft. First draft is the stroy draft, after that it's open season on wooden clunky dialogue.

For the rest of this discussion let's assume that we are speaking of the writer/director. If you're trying to sell a script, just throwing down words isn't the best approach to any component of the script.

Staged Readings -- if you don't have access to actors, try friends. It's not as good as trained actors, but it will help you see what lines are too wordy and what lines are too confusing.

Poke

You should never be contemplating the dialogue (or any other part of the script) during it's first draft writing process anyway..

As Viki King says in her book How to write a movie in 21 days, "Write from the heart, REwrite from the head"

Simply meaning, don't think about what you write while you write it, and don't go back to change anything until you're finished writing. When you start working on the rewrites, that's when you can be analytical and figure out if the scenes are in the right order, if her hair should really be auburn instead of blonde, if he should really tell her to go F-ck herself or just slam the door in her face, whether or not their discussion about the flavor of coffee was helping to drive the story or just extra 'fluff'.. most (if not all) of that fluff can go away.

Sid Field mentions something in at least one of his screenwriting books about "Whitespace". In which he's talking about the contrast of words to blank page in a script. As a script reader, he said it's a lot easier to read through one with more white per page than other scripts. Even if it is only a psychological thing... cutting the words on the page will help you sell a script, afterall if it doesn't make it past the readers desk you're not going to get anything but a reserved space in the "circular file"

Pixel touched on something that is KEY to writing dialogue. It MUST be necessary to the story. There just simply is not room on the page, or in the script as a whole, for unneeded words that cut down the whitespace and thereby cut down your chances of sale.

Now, on the other hand, if it is a script you're planning to shoot yourself, then even the formatting of it isn't as important, let alone if there's extra unnecessary dialogue or not. That would be where a stage reading may be most helpful, because in this case you're not interested in impressing hollywood people enough to get them to pony up some dough for your story so you can go buy a doughnut and coffee and brag about how you just sold the next hit hollywood movie. You are interested in whether or not the dialogue "works" ... not just to move the story forward, but in general, does it sound natural, is it in line with how that character expresses themself vocally. Personally I still feel that keeping the dialogue to that which is essential for the story is the best bet, but not quite as necessary for a film you plan to shoot yourself.

Why? You don't need to impress anyone so they'll buy it, it's already going to be made, by you! If, during the process of pre-production, production, or post production, you come upon a bit of dialogue that isn't needed, pull it from the script, don't shoot that segment, or edit it out (depending on which stage you're in). It's done all the time, which is a big part of why there are deleted scenes on most DVDs these days. Hey, if you can cut a WHOLE SCENE and still get the story across without confusion, cool! Production just sped up by a few hours to a day or so, congrats, eat a twinkie.

The bottom line is this: Always get into a scene at the last possible moment, and leave it as soon as you can, and make sure dialogue moves the story forward, while also not explaining what can just as easily be shown. If dialogue still troubles you, and you have access to some friends or preferably actors (or better yet, improv people) get them together, explain the scene, and tell them to act it out. Tape these improv sessions, and straight up steal their lines. Why? You're looking for how people talk, right? Well... they just put themselves into your scene, and spoke how they would speak, because they were working without lines.

Sure, they might need to be tweaked a bit, but at least it should help for a scene you just can't quite get the dialogue to work in. Even if you have dialogue written for that scene, I'd say give them the scene breakdown, what they're each trying to accomplish, etc.. but not the dialogue, then let 'em loose and incorporate their dialogue with your scene. If they just totally skip saying something that's needed, write it in, but if they're any good at improv acting and have an idea where the scene needs to go that shouldn't be necessary.

CLEARLY THERE IS NOT ENOUGH WHITESPACE IN THIS POST!

So do we have any detractors? Anyone think dialogue isn't as important as we make it out to be?

Poke

Poke said:

Wondering about people's opinions on the importance of the dialogue in a script.

I've heard some say that they don't spend too much time worrying about dialogue, they let the actors take the written lines and make them their own.

I on the other hand feel like dialogue is more than likely the single thing that sets an indie apart from the bazillion other no names out there.

Thoughts?

Poke

Click to expand...

Poke,

I think you know where I stand on this since we've discussed it a bit... Dialogue is absolutely important. Great dialogue can put your screenplay and or film on the map...

The easy way to tackle this is to write your first draft from your gut. In other words, go ahead and enter into a conversation or any aspect of the dialogue anywhere you want. A lot of books will tell you to go ahead and start writing a scene as late into it as possible. Great recommendation for the final draft; not so great for the first draft unless you're William Goldman.

Meaning that sometimes (most of the time?) we need to start these scenes even before the beginning of them to GET TO THAT LATE ENTRY POINT. Taking the story through its logical sequences will normally bring out everything. Starting too late in the final draft could cause you to lose something special that you'll never get back.

What does all that have to do with dialogue?

Same thing. Draw that first draft out like a book if you have to. If that first draft has to be 250 pages, so be it. Some will disagree with me but this is how you get to the outstanding material instead of trying to simply dream it up on the spot. The great thing about this technique is all the great stuff you've written but won't use for this script but is there to use for other scripts down the line.

In one of my first draft scripts, I created a common character who stands behind a wrecking yard counter all day ringing up purchases. This character is not germain to the story at all but when I got to this character, he came alive and told the main character of the script this wonderful story about her dead husband getting hit by a 20 foot wave at the beach... I must have ended up with 4 great pages of this stuff from the one character. I don't even know where it came from but I went with it. Of course none of it made it into the final draft because there's no reason for it to be there but I still have all those pages that serve as backstory for another character OR even as a story that a main character CAN eventually tell in another script.

So write that first draft from the gut. Don't worry about length or even how it sounds... Just get it all out. When it comes time to whittle it down, take each character one at a time and analyze all his or her dialogue:

--Does this character sound like all the other characters? In other words, if you covered the name of each character would a reader know who is talking simply by reading the dialogue? If not, figure out a way to make this character sound distinctively different than the others. Could be a phrase that this character uses all the time or it could be something that the character does all the time. For instance, I have a friend that will absolutely stop talking in the middle of a conversation when an attractive female comes into the area. He will stop his conversation and start talking about this female. Sometimes you don't even notice the segway because he simply keeps talking... It's not until you actually LISTEN that you realize he's totally changed the subject matter. There are ways to take these kinds of character traits and implement them into your character to give them a distinctive voice.

--Read each scene of each character and determine what the POINT of that scene is and then simply take the character's dialogue to that point. Kind of like reverse engineering. If you can get to the point of the character in that scene with a half a page instead of 2 pages, then do it.

--Figure out clever ways of having your character mean exactly the same thing in his or her dialogue. In other words... No on-the-nose dialogue or, at the very least, as little as possible. Use metaphors, subtext, etc. to get to the real meaning of the dialogue.

--Stay away from exposition as much as possible i.e., characters that tell us what we've just seen, characters that have to catch us up in the story, characters that have to tell us how they feel, characters that use cliche lines, etc.

--Pacing. Take a look at your scene. This is about as formulaic as I get... i.e., short lines of dialogue equals faster pacing. Long lines of dialogue mean slower pacing. Should the scene have a fast or slow pace to it? Check the dialogue, it will probably reveal a problem if there is one.

The bottom line? Dialogue is as important as you MAKE it! Use dialogue as a last resort. If you can show it rather than having a character say it, then show it. But if you can't show it, then it's time for some dialogue...

filmy

Glad you joined the discussion filmy. I was hoping you would.

Poke

Poke said:

Glad you joined the discussion filmy. I was hoping you would.

Poke

Click to expand...

Poke,

Sorry about the long-winded post... LOL.

Sometimes I can't help it... I re-read your original post and realized that I really didn't need to expound on the do's and don'ts...

Having said that...

Dialogue is so very important and this is one place where an Indie film can catch up with the big boys at the studios.

Dialogue is what truly got Tarantino noticed. He came at it with a different perspective than what had been going through the studio gauntlet.

Do I think he's the best? Hell no. But like lots of other successes in the business, TIMING IS EVERYTHING. Tarantino was lucky enough to find enough people to read his scripts and in turn, thought his dialogue outstanding. Lots of it is... No arguing that.

But back to us Indies...

Making sure that the dialogue is as good as it can possibly be will in fact put you on the path to success.

filmy

Dialogue

Good Lord. Dialogue is essential. Unless you're writing "Quest For Fire." All these comments about the maximum length of a scene and first drafts should only do this or that are utter nonsense. Writing is not always rewriting. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. Some scenes may take ten passes to get decent. Other scenes may come out perfect on the first try. There are absolutely no hard and fast rules to writing in general and screenplays in particular. As far as letting actors make the lines their own, I'm of the opinion that actors should indeed make the lines their own -- the lines the writer has given them. They shouldn't "rewrite." They should "reinterpet." That should come in the performance of the lines as written by the writer. I'm sure some directors would disagree and allow a certain degree of improv. But to throw actors some rough dialogue and let them go wild is an insult to the writer who spends the time and energy to craft the snappy, punchy dialogue in the first place. In general, I would beware of rules when it comes to dialogue or any other part of a script. Usually, the people who are insisting there must be rules are amateurs. Sure, a screenplay needs to have slug lines, action, character names and dialogue. But beyond that, anything goes. And most producers and agents could care less if a scene is ten pages or one sentence. They are not experts on writing. If they were, they would be writers.

Poke said:

Wondering about people's opinions on the importance of the dialogue in a script.

I've heard some say that they don't spend too much time worrying about dialogue, they let the actors take the written lines and make them their own.

I on the other hand feel like dialogue is more than likely the single thing that sets an indie apart from the bazillion other no names out there.

Thoughts?

Poke

Click to expand...

I mostly formulate what I want in my head, then am propelled to record it on the page. At that point it usually flows until a breaking point from 5-10 pages. Sure there are rewrites and sometimes I take out scenes or whole characters completely, but so far the best things I feel I have written I haven't touched much after the first write. And yes, I do feel dialogue is extremely important. What other reason would Clerks have been so popular?

I say this as I'm about to make a silent short.

there's a lot more to clerks than dialogue.. there are many parts where the dialogue just sucks.. or maybe it's the delivery of it that sucks. Good example, when Dante & Veronica are sitting on the floor behind the counter, Dante's responses sound too rehearsed..

probably just bad delivery. But there's still more there than just dialogue

But the dialogue is solid. I think you're right it was the delivery, but if you remember who these actors are at the time, its not hard to see how they might occasionally botch a delivery. The visual quality of Clerks *I* find appealing because its harsh like reversal but it suits the film, technically though Dan's film looks better. many 16mm productions look better. The story to me is pretty weak on a traditional scale, but it is so intimate that it begs another look. Basically the main thing that sold me was the quality of the script... the characters are real and the dialogue is real too. Its not my lifestyle and Im not in those relationships, so that is all that drew me in, I could care less what happens with Clerks and their private lives day in and day out.

"In general, I would beware of rules when it comes to dialogue or any other part of a script. Usually, the people who are insisting there must be rules are amateurs. Sure, a screenplay needs to have slug lines, action, character names and dialogue. But beyond that, anything goes."

I somewhat agree with this. I am an amatuer, seeing as I've never been paid for a script i've written (nor have I tried to be), but have written more than a few. I've heard all sorts of rules, and generally, there's truth behind most of them, like you should keep dialogue blocks to a minimum, scenes generally shouldn't be longer than three pages, and there should be three acts to a story. Now, of course, rules are made to be broken, but there are general guidelines out there that one can follow. Following them doesn't equate to writing a good script, but, in my opinion, they certainly help.

As far as the topic of this thread goes, dialogue is very important for a few reasons:

To convey ideas
To get to know the characters
To move the story along
To make jokes
among others

But I still think it should be used as sparingly as possible. If you can convey something that is said through an action, I think you should side on using the action over dialogue.