That was my recent realisation after I bought my amazing new Super-8 camera.

So, with expense in mind, I started poking around the 'net to look for the cheapest way to buy, use, develop & edit my (probably crappy-looking) Super-8 footage.

I'm just going to post what I found (and why)... and I'm sure I will have many errors in my reasoning. Googling can be fun, but it's no certainty. Please poke holes in what I am thinking so far. I know absolutely nothing about real film apart from what I found on the 'net... and corrections to my delusions are most welcome.

If anything is plain incorrect, please add a correction. This is all based on 'net findings... and if the Internet is wrong, who can we really trust? :lol:

_______

Film is expensive, so buy from the manufacturer.

From what I can tell, Kodachrome-40 is the default film for Super-8. Buying direct from Kodak (using their online price guide) should avoid a middleman. That means (direct from manufacturer) that each K-40 Super-8 cartridge costs $10.83... although one has to buy at least 5 cartridges, if I read it correctly (We'll call that $11 a roll, for convenience. $55 minimum order)

Using film is expensive (due to waste)

Well, I had no love finding anything about conserving film. It seems like it's just a case of knowing when to film, for real. In DV, you just rewind & reuse if it's a lousy shoot. Over & over. Plus, you can cram roughly an hour onto a mini-DV, and it's no biggie if you have to change cassettes. What the heck does one do, on Super-8, which is limited to mere (un-redoable) minutes? I have an inkling of what may be required (not being a sloppy director?), but it's making me nervous. :P

Developing film is expensive, and few companies do

Best I can tell, Dwayne's Photo is the only American company that develops Super-8 film. (More specifically, no matter who you send your Super-8 film to... it ends up at Dwayne's) If one was to cut out the middleman and send the exposed cartridges direct to Dwayne's, their online order form quotes a $9 (per cartridge) processing fee.

That means... $20 total ($11 for the film, $9 for develop) for a less-than-4-minute straight footage, that may (or may not) have something useable on it! :eek:

Telecine is expensive

A few ways to do it, so I read.

From what I understand, a "rank transfer" is best. Apparently it involves a laser that scans each frame much more thoroughly than a simple "frame by frame" telecine capture. My own thinking is that my first lot of footage would be okay on one of those "mirror thingies"... where a projector bounces the film off a mirror, which is filmed by a DV camcorder for import. I understand that the quality will be less than even a regular frame-by-frame capture... but since seeing the prices for the above options, it doesn't seem so bad for what is basically test footage.

_______

Like I said, all of this was found through peeking through the 'net... so if anything is incorrect, please pipe up. I know nothing about film, aside from what I looked up :P

sounds like quite a situation Zen. I can see how when filming with film things can get stressful. Its kind of like the 16mm Snowboard films, the cameramen want you to land the tricks first try, because every time you try a trick its costing them money. But when you're putting you're health/life(sometiems) on the line...you wanna be careful, and you cant always land the trick first try...

Same with acting, better rehearse the crap out of those actors before even looking at your camera.

Question : Once you've filmed, do you HAVE to get it developed like a regular camera? Or can you take the film directly through a projector?

Rizien--I sooo wish you could do that! But you're right, if you expose film to light before you develop it, bye bye footage. Unloading a spool of film from my bolex 16mm in the dark did manage to increase my love for my GL1 mini-dv. But when I got the 16mm footage back (several hundred bucks later), I thought it was still worth it. Such deep colors, almost edible. That said, my future projects are going to be pure digital to stay on the cheap.

And Zen- I found during Under Nor Cal production that the cost of purchasing film rolls and processing (for both super8and 16mm) are not bad compared to the cost of getting the footage transferred to tape (like a mini-dv). I needed to have everything on mini-dv cuz I edited the whole thing digitally on my eMac G4 FCP3, via the GL1 deck.

Zen,

Your right film is pretty expensive. What I've learn from shooting Super 8 is to PLAN, PLAN, PLAN! :D It does take it as you don't want to waste anything. I'm going to PM you in a sec with something alittle "extra!" ;)

Zen, you can get Kodachrome 40 developed by KODAK for $5.99 per roll by buying PREPAID mailers from B&H PHoto.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=28267&is=REG


There's also Kodachrome 40 with prepaid mailer included for $17.20, no minimum
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=348529&is=USA

I have shot a lot of super 8 (even this past weekend) and it is expensive, but ony in comparison to mini DV and the texture & feel of film is unparalleled.

I've used (and am about to use again) FILM & VIDEO TRANSFERS for my rank transfer of super 8 film. www.thetransferstation.com ask for Doug. It's $150 for 1 hour of telecine (not an hour of film, but 4 or 5 to 1 transfer time). The results are broadcast quality and no mirror & box can compare to it.

We shot a short film as a camera "test" with 4 rolls of Pro8mm super 8 film. WAITING by Micah Jenkins, click here for 2 min short (www.sonnyboo.com/onlinemovies/wait.htm)

sonnyboo saves the day!

FYI the new transfers from www.moviestuff.tv are also very good. It's a flat $20 per roll ro transfer to mini DV and it's about 80% the quality of a true telecine transfer (very good for more uses)

I'm liking the look of those combined film & mailer things, Mr Boo! Will have to wait a few days to get some more, as they only have one left in stock according to the shopping cart.

Going to have to learn a lot of discipline with real film, especially with 'cine prices. I think I'll stick with a $30 mirror-box for now... at least 'til I get enough practice to get somewhat decent looking footage. :D

With my personal experience, I've found if you 'storyboard, storyboard, storyboard', you can cut out some of the expense of wasted rolls. Are you cutting film or editing on pc?

For sure, storyboards are very useful. Best I can do is stickmen drawings, but they work :lol:

I'm assuming I'll be editing on the PC. But then... I don't know how it would get un-telecined and back to film. Hmmm.

Pay for the transfer back :P ?

I think I had that part figured out. :lol:

I meant more along the lines of how do they actually get the video back onto film. :yes:

Is your final piece film? If so, why can't you just cut the Super-8? There are cheap viewers with small rewinds and splicer on ebay-I think I've seen some for 10-15 bucks.

That's a good question. I'm not really sure.

I'm going to want sound & dialogue... so either way it would be hitting my PC at some point.

But then, if getting back to Super-8 for a finished reel... and they no longer make Super-8 with a sound stripe... how would that work?

Man, this film thing is tricky stuff! :huh:

I've had very limited experience with Super-8 and t he
best I could come up with is a double system (we would just patch our sound into the auditorium/theaters system)and the best sync you'd be able to manage would be wild. That still leaves alot of room for some really interesting things to happen though. Lip-sync? Well...how do ya feel about 16mm? :hmm:

I think I'd better wait 'til my Super-8 camera arrives in the mail and I get a chance to play with it, before changing to 16mm http://www.stevenrichards.com/images/smiley_pac.gif

Did you review the DVD "Desperado/El Mariachi" with the 10-minute film school? Rodriguez has great film saving tecniques.

Ascoli

I heard there was some book by Rodriguez. Didn't it have a similar title?

Yes, and about the same thing. I watched the DVD commentary on El Mariachi last night. It is really motivating for an amatuer filmmaker. Great insights to how to do your first film. He did El Mariachi for under $7,000 in the early '90's.

rodriguez's book is titled Rebel Without A Crew. it's quite a good read and quite informative. the thing about the movie being made for 7000 is a myth. the cut the studios saw cost 7000 then they gave him 200 000 to shoot more/reshoot scenes. That's the version that was released.

rodriguez's book is titled Rebel Without A Crew. it's quite a good read and quite informative. the thing about the movie being made for 7000 is a myth. the cut the studios saw cost 7000 then they gave him 200 000 to shoot more/reshoot scenes. That's the version that was released.

He still made it for 7k. Studios always pump more money into the indies they buy, most need sound work, etc. I wouldn't call it a myth, since he shot a film for 7K. I heard they put $100,000 into it for sound. You have to be able to hear it ;)

He still made it for 7k. Studios always pump more money into the indies they buy, most need sound work, etc. I wouldn't call it a myth, since he shot a film for 7K. I heard they put $100,000 into it for sound. You have to be able to hear it ;)

Very True!

I read the book as well. It gives you a good amount of information, though, i dont think i remember too much of it anymore.

I just bought 6 rolls of super 8 for my film. I always buy my film from kodak. And I get it the next day. THe K40 was 14 bucks including processing. Now negative film is EXPENSIVE. Pro8mm is pretty cheap as far as buying the film because its about 35 bucks including processing but I gave up that plan after hearing people like Sonnyboo say theyve had some problems with their film. for negative film from kodak its 30 bucks a roll. But you can get better quality results and you have a much higher latitude when filming (more control over light, dont need as much light to get a good image). Also Steve, shoot 18 fps at least for the first or so roll of film. This way you get 3:20 mins out of it instead of 2:30 as you would shooting 24 fps. with 18 fps you dont need as much light than with 24 but 24 is good for fast motion objects. I'm going to shoot my film at 18. it can save alot of money. Super 8s a fun medium to work with. I'm sure youll enjoy it once you start. Just get a roll or two of k40 from kodak with processing. Itl last you longer than you think. :yes:

Now negative film is EXPENSIVE. Pro8mm is pretty cheap as far as buying the film because its about 35 bucks including processing but I gave up that plan after hearing people like Sonnyboo say theyve had some problems with their film. for negative film from kodak its 30 bucks a roll. But you can get better quality results and you have a much higher latitude when filming (more control over light, dont need as much light to get a good image).

I've shot the Super-8 negative stock and found it fairly grainy. Even the 100T. I shot a commercial for sonnyboo (aka Ross) with it and got a good result, but just saw a terrible transfer from Pro8 with a jitter which is their fault (the jitter was in two cameras and different cartridges, so it was either the transfer or the cartridges which they loaded) and they wouldn't accept blame. That's just one of many bad customer service stories I've heard about Pro8.

I'd track down cheap 16mm negative before I'd shoot Pro8. It will be cheaper if you hunt down deals like buying short ends and transfer rates can be as cheap as $135/hr for a rank telecine.

I recommend K40, but realize you'll need tons of light, so if you're shooting lots of night exertiors, plan on bring lots and lots of lights.

Scott

I've heard the higher the asa the more grain. But i dont know if that is true.

Oh and as a note, K-14 processing (Kodachrome) Is very um... what's the word... oh yes, cancerus. Also, polutionus. Also, I just made up that word. There is only one place in North America that does it, and it's in California. (Thre MAY still be a place in Europe that does it also).

Oh yes, and the higher the ISO, the more grain. That is true.

Zen,

Ever get your Super8 camera?

Shipped last Thursday, apparently. They slowpokes.

Any day now! http://www.stevenrichards.com/images/smiley_fatpig.gif

That's a good question. I'm not really sure.

I'm going to want sound & dialogue... so either way it would be hitting my PC at some point.

But then, if getting back to Super-8 for a finished reel... and they no longer make Super-8 with a sound stripe... how would that work?

Man, this film thing is tricky stuff! :huh:

I wouldn't bother trying to cut Super8 film anymore... Just isn't worth it. Although you could cut crap out you definitely know you're not going to use... But that could be a lot of cuts and the more splices you have, the more you risk having it come apart during telecine...

As far as shooting... I recommend shooting at 24 frames instead of 18... The look of 18 frames a second just isn't quite as nice as 24...

At 24 frames a second, you're looking at 2.5 minutes per roll... My goal was to TRY and average at least one minute of usable footage from every roll... With careful planning, this isn't as hard as you think... As for actors however, the real trick is rehearsal... Try to set up a couple of rehearsals and when you're on the set, try two or three practice takes before the actual take... If you're moving the camera and or the talent, DEFINITELY do a couple of run-throughs before shooting the shot...

filmy

I've heard the higher the asa the more grain. But i dont know if that is true.

It is very very very true

umm.. sorry for asking but When he said Super 8 I thought he meant DV.

There is a film size Super 8? 5.95 for how much length of film? Does it have sound?

How do you guys edit film.. do you have one of those old film editors that cuts and paste the scenes together? I think we had one in my Junior High Audio Visual class.

again sorry.. never played with real film except in the 7th and 8th grade.. everything went video in highschool for the school I went to to save money.

well as for film being hard to work with, i went from video to film. mostly is rehearsing what you want that saves you stock. that in the end saves you time on a pro shoot. better to do it in 5 takes then sit there rewinding and degenerating the tape, not to mention film advances in technology, so using the latest film in any camera gives you the newest resolution. using a video camera means you are stuck with that picture quality. you cant improve it. you can always retelecine film with newer tech.

as for sound on film there are people that can put soundstripe on it. it is also possible to print it to a release print with an optical trach. www.super8sync.com has a syncing method. id almost suggest using neg and printing to a 16mm release.

finally, to save costs ans improve quality consider double super8. i started a new thread on it. cheers