Ask permissioon before or after?

J

joey1320

Ok here's my problem. I'm working on a scrip and it has an actor going into a jewerly store to shop for his girlfriend's wedding ring. The short film will be a "home video type" and I was planning on calling the store beforehand and asking them if it was ok for me to record my friend while he looks for wedding rings.

I would tell the store owner/manager that we are doing it for a video that is going to be played at the reception, because I want an honest sales experience from the workers at the store. After the actor goes in looks around and "buys" a ring, I was going tell them it's for a short film and get signatures for release.

Is this ethical or legal? I would be lying to them when I call and ask permission to shoot, but I wont use the footage unless they allow me. I just don't want the sales person knowing it is for a "film" because then they will think too much about it.

Sorry if it's a little bit confusing, my mind and my typing skills are sometimes in different modes lol.
Joey
 
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LasVegasIRA said:
If you're writing a script, wouldn't you want an actor to play the salesperson so they can deliver the lines you've written?
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Yes I could, but I want a complete realistic look and feel to it. Kind of a "found footage" film. Plus that would mean I would need to find another actor and setup the whole thing at the store. If I do it the way I hope to, the people at the store will be aware of the camera, but to them it will be a real selling/buying situation, so I should get a true experience.

My plan was to give the actor some money and actually have him buy something inexpensive. So in the video you will have a real transaction taking place. Then outside I will place my wife's wedding ring in the bag and have the actor show it to the camera.
 
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I'm sure you can get releases after the fact. That's what they do on all the hidden camera and "gotcha" type shows.

I just think that if you have a specific story you want to tell, you'd have an easier time getting the type of footage you want with two actors, as opposed to having one actor trying to steer the scene in the direction its supposed to go and hoping the salesperson follows. Maybe I'm just confused because I don't know the story the way you do...

Good luck either way!
 
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LasVegasIRA said:
I'm sure you can get releases after the fact. That's what they do on all the hidden camera and "gotcha" type shows.
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And they a pay money. A lot of money.

joey, if you are willing to take the chance that the owner will
not appreciate the deception, then your method might work.
I will suggest that the presence of a camera is going to alter
the non actors behavior no matter what. Telling the people in
the store up front that you are making a movie will not, in my
opinion, change much.

If the store owner and the sales person do not appreciate
being deceived and you do not use the footage what will take
the place of this scene in your movie? Perhaps you could be
totally ethical about this and if they "act" in a way you don't like
you don't use the footage.

To answer the question; yes it's legal. I, personally, feel it's unethical.
 
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I d think that recording inside the store is not allowed, because of safety and competition..

Lying to the manager, and then asking for release form signature sounds like a bad idea...
 
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Ok here's some more info so you guys can get a better idea of the whole thing.

The store that I will go to is the same store where I bought my wife's wedding ring/bands and my own. I have also bought other stuff from them, so even tho I will not say they know me, they do know I have bought from them and I have had some good conversations with the owner of the place about cars and stuff. So I do think I got a good/friendly connection to them.

I need about 10-20 seconds of footage. It will be us driving into the parking lot of the store, walking in, a shot from a bit far where we see the actor and the salesperson looking at rings and one of the guy paying/receiving the bag.

What do you guys think now?
Thanks for the feedback btw.

Joey
 
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joey1320 said:
a shot from a bit far where we see the actor and the salesperson looking at rings and one of the guy paying/receiving the bag.
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I think the same thing.

If you are willing to chance that the owner and sales
person will sign a release after you film them, then you
should stick to you plan. It seems to me you are tying to
convince yourself (and others) that you will get a better
reaction "from a bit far" from a non actor by not telling
them it's for a movie but for a wedding video. I think
you're wrong. I think you would be better off telling them
up front what you are doing. Especially since the shot will
be "from a bit far".

What will you do if the owner and sales person, upon
being told you are not doing it for a video that is going to
be played at the reception, do not sign a release? Will you
cut the scene?
 
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I would say talk to the owner of the establishment first. Who wants to take the time to film something that may have to be reshot if they won't sign a release. We shot at a jewelry store for our film Out of Commission and it was a great experience the owners we're awesome. Because they knew we were coming they put all there bling in the cases we would have in our shot instead of spaced out all over the store. Also just a side note get an actor to play the sales person. If you don't get the performance you want from a regular person you can't really direct them and if you try they may get annoyed with the whole process. Not everyone want's to be in the movies.
 
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When I used to shoot news, we were not allowed to shoot video in many
jewelry stores due to their "corporate policy" of security issues. Therefore,
you will certainly want to tell them what you're doing before you attempt
to do it...in case they say no when you walk in with your camera.

And if you get a "no" from the first store, go to an independent "mom-pop"
jewelry store, which may have a more lax policy.
 
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I think what most of you are missing is that he will get permission
to shoot there. He is asking if he should tell them up front that he
is making a short film or if he should tell them he is shooting a
personal video to show at a wedding reception. He never once
suggested he would shoot without notifying the owner.
 
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I think you need to be up front about what you are doing with the owner. I'd hate to think that I may need to ask that very same guy for permission to shoot something and then have him refuse as he tells me all about how the last film guy proved just how untrustworthy we are as a group.
 
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LasVegasIRA said:
I'm sure you can get releases after the fact. That's what they do on all the hidden camera and "gotcha" type shows.
Click to expand...

directorik said:
And they pay money. A lot of money.
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Actually, they don't.

I worked on one of these hidden camera shows ("Trapped In TV Guide"), and none of the "civilians" who were tricked on camera were paid for their segments on the show. They would perform the stunt/bit, the reveal would happen when the actor said "You're Trapped In TV Guide!", and then there was applause and excitement from the cast and crew, and after filming the reactions by the mark, they'd pull out a release while the person was still confused and excited and happy and get them to sign. No money exchanged hands.

It's similar to America's Funniest Videos giving people a T-shirt as a "reward" for their video. AFV got bits that filled time on network TV at a rate of however many hundreds of thousands of dollars per minute, and the person providing content got a T-shirt, which probably cost the network a couple bucks each.

gelder
 
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The risk is that, without permission from the people on camera, you can't use the footage -- and if you do, you risk not being able to present the signed release to festivals who require them or distributors who require them. So you could spend time shooting only to not be able to use the footage (it's a risk, and one that we can't decide whether or not you are willing to take) and potentially waste all that shooting time, or you can get the stuff signed up front and know that you'll have footage you can legally use in your project not jeopardizing any potential distro plans you may have (although, you may have to look at the place to see if there are any logos or recognizable designs that could prevent distro as well -- E&O insurance should cover that, it think, IANAL -- so we never shoot anything we don't have complete set design control over).
 
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Get permission, find a way, find another store, MANY ways to fake any type of store you want have. First, shoot them walking into any building then add a jewelery sign in post, then shoot them inside ( could even be another store ) and at a counter, you can composite in the elements you need to make it look legit.
 
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