I know many of you have been following our rather professional debate over working for credit vs working for money. (Sorry Matte)

As for me, I will only score Student Films for free. Once they graduate, I believe the producer should be able to cover at least some money for the score.

What do you think?

SK

OK, this isn't a proper reply as such, but....

Stephen, thanks for putting up the thread!!

(OK, maybe I will reply properly as well....)

I tend to figure that if the production has a budget, then they should allow for music. I tend to think in terms of a percentage, where the actual amount will depend on the quantity/importance of a soundtrack, experience of composer, any other fees, etc. Soooo, a student film probably has a budget of zilch, which means (in essene) free music. But if there is money available, then yes some of it should actually be spent on the audio.

Just my 2cents worth...

Once they graduate, I believe the producer should be able to cover at least some money for the score.

Well, I can only deal with my experience in such matters. I am not a college graduate, although I am old enough to be. I have no intentions of ever returning to school. I, by far, know more about filmmaking than any school will ever teach me (notice I say "will" instead of "could", film schools are holding valuable info from the attendees, but that's another topic). So, let's consider me someone who has "graduated" from the need of film school.

I still have jack squat to spend on my movies.

Now, if I did have money to spend on a project, I'd consider paying for a score if there weren't dozens of folks out there who'd give me a decent score for free. Why would I pay for something I could get for free? I find a lot of people out there are willing to work for a) experience, b) the credit for a resume, or c) the joy of filmmaking. So, I'll go with them until I find better.

If you've reached a point in your professional life where you are confident enough in your work and conmfortable enough in your abilities where you can say pay me or I walk, more power to you, man. I hope someday to be able to join you.

Poke

This is a common problem composers face. Generally (and of course there are exceptions) composers liked to get paid for their work - we have bills, along with every one else. In order to get the gigs where you get paid, you need the credits/experience. Which usually means working for free.

I think Poke hits the nail firmly on the head - why bother paying for something that you can get for free? Of course, if (like him) there is no budget, then that is exactly what you're after. But if you've got funding from anywhere, then by actally paying composers something, you're supporting them enough to climb higher up the ladder, as well as encourgaing them (and yourselves) to progress as artists.

There is also the term "committment" which goes hand-in-hand with payment. I also work on computer games, and I've already lost count of the "free" games I signed up to work on, only to either hear that their previous guy quit because he got a paid gig, or that the developers decided to drop the project. Once anyone gets funding, you get a really important incentive to do even better than the best you've done already, and to stick with the project like glue.

I know I've already mentioned this is Matte's thread, but I'll say it here - I strongly recommend that composers don't give music for "free", but apply a 100% discount instead. That way, producers/directors get to see the "value" of your work, and appreciate more the fact that they're not paying for it. From a business point of view, it also makes it damn easier to start raising prices as you develop professionally. This isn't something I've thought of, it's solid advice from 2 high-ranking professionals in the game audio industry.

Wow, I wasn't expecting to write so much! Anyone else have thoughts?

If I need my wedding videotaped, edited and put on DVD, what could I expect if I get it for free as opposed to what would I expect if I pay a pro for it? Sure, some friends with a good DV will gladly shoot my wedding for free, but would I want them to on something so important?

Responding to Poke, and I've said this on the Matte's thread as well, you do get what you pay for. There is a difference. Someone who is a professional film scorer, who gets paid for what they do, can afford better gear and tools to be competitive out in the real world (as far as quality of sound goes). Someone sitting at home doing music for free is much more likely to sound like it came from a good Casio keyboard than a pro studio. The sound quality of the score, not only the writing, can make or break a film. I've seen good films be ruined by a cheap score, even at the Hollywood level, but I've also seen bad movies saved by a great score.

SK

By the way, that is a nasty-lookin' picture there, Poke. (Only Pokin' fun!)
:roll:

Hi All,

Thanks to Stephen for getting this thread going. Nice job! And, once again, Poke takes the words right out of my mouth. However, we've all had that discussion already.

I'm both a composer and a filmmaker. Speaking strictly as a filmmaker, I'm much more likely to share future successes with those who have partnered with me versus those who have preferred to be paid. In fact, as Poke notes, there are simply too many out there who will work for the experience. And, guess what? They work harder in my opinion and don't bring any false expectations.

My analogy is like the difference between a major league baseball game and a good local high school baseball game. Give me the high school game any day of the week. Those guys work hard and produce more excitement! And, talk about affordable! :+) I get to see a lot more games that way.

And, it's a myth to suggest that you get what you pay for. Whomever said that should be shot. It "can" be true, but is not a fact of life. I recently built a website for a local university music department here in Atlanta. The director of music wanted to pay me. I said, no way. He twisted my arm, but I didn't give in.

I proposed an alternative. How about I compose a piece for your orchestra and you include it on your spring concert. He gladly agreed. Can you imagine what it would cost me to hire an orchestra? In fact, he's open to discussing further opportunities for the orchestra to do some music for my films. He suggested it might be good publicity for the orchestra and the music department.

Those who focus on pay will gain short-term rewards. Those who focus on relationships will gain the long term rewards.

Regards,

Hutch DeLoach

If people can go see a baseball game for free, why would anyone in their right mind pay to go see one? Well I guess millions disagree, but ask yourself why.

I guess I look at it that this is my profession, not my hobby. You can make good relationships with filmakers AND get paid too! Wow, what a concept! And... get credits while getting paid! Wow!

Poke said, "I'd consider paying for a score if there weren't dozens of folks out there who'd give me a decent score for free." If decent is all you want for your projects, then decent is all your projects will ever be, nothing more. Think higher folks.


SK

Personally, I believe that you get what you pay for, and the difference between the talent level you are able to get for free and the level you can get if you are able to offer some money, even if it is just a pittance, is substantial. I would love to pay everyone scale, or even just make it work their time, but sometimes I can’t. The distinction is not between if I want to or not, but that I am not capable of it because the money simply is not there, and if I did not rely on the kindness of strangers, the productions simply wouldn’t have been made. So if the chouse is between imposing on someone to work for free or not to work at all, I choose work.

And, it's a myth to suggest that you get what you pay for.

I don't think that statement is always false when considering hard goods; however, throwing more money at a person can't make them more creative or talented. I guess it could put the pressure on them to excel and pay more attention to detail, so in a way, paying someone could motivate them to a better product....but if they didn't have "it" in the first place, money isn't going to change a thing.

Poke said, "I'd consider paying for a score if there weren't dozens of folks out there who'd give me a decent score for free." If decent is all you want for your projects, then decent is all your projects will ever be, nothing more. Think higher folks.

So is it not possible to have a great film with only a decent score? I don't want to piss off the music composers, but the fact of the matter is, if you do your job right, no one should notice the score, great or not. It should blend perfectly with the visuals to make sweet sweet orgasmic delight for the viewer. The music shouldn't stand out on its own unless it is intended to be on its own. A decent score shouldn't bring a film down to sub par levels, at least in my opinion it wouldn't. I've rarely walked out of film and said "man, that was great movie, but it would’ve been waaayyy better if the score was better." Just because you're not paying for the music doesn't discredit the musician for trying and doing his best. If it's just decent, then it's just decent. That's the opinion of the listener and the work of the musician. Don't get me wrong, the music is important, I just think that what is deemed "decent" music can work well in the right film.

Hey, if I can get a guy to do a score for me for free, and I become a successful filmmaker. He will be getting paid.

I like what Hutch said about building relationships, that's a good point.

By the way, you all know I'm sexy.

Poke

I can see that there are 2 distinct layers with both composers and producers (I'll use the term "producers" here as anyone who makes films). You've got those who make music (or films) as a hobby, and those who want to make a living out of it. And, of course, there are loads of variations in both camps for talent, focus, ability, etc. etc.

It's easy to confuse the hobbyists and those wanting to earn a living at an early stage in their development - both tend to work for free, both can do either great (or bad) work. And I fully agree with Goat that throwing money at someone who hasn't got "it" (whatever "it" happens to be defined as at the time) won't improve things.

But those who want to earn a living reach a point where they have to start charging. Why? Because they want to give up the crappy job they've got that keeps body and soul together, and actually do their work AND pay the bills (and, certainly from my point of view, re-invest that money into better equipment which will improve my work).

I think it's probably fair to say that the same things happen to producers.

Likewise, I would never think of charging a producer for music for their film if they haven't got any budget. It doesn't help them or me.

Wow, didn't mean to go on for so long. Just my 2cents worth! :D

Personally, I think more dialogue like this between composers and producers can only help us better understand one another.

I feel that if composers don't charge anything then they dis-value (I think I made that up) the craft and don't see their own work as having any value. Sure there are films with no budgets, but come on... producers can come up with at least something nominal.

Is Hutch saying that, like little league players, composers who write for free do it more from the heart than someone who gets paid? Does John Williams or Danny Elfman just do it for the money?

Baz is right, throwing money at someone won't make the person a better composer. You have to hire a composer based on two things: Composition talent and Quality of sound. (Notice the word "hire") The one's with both are the ones in demand. If the producer doesn't care what it sounds like and is only looking for a "decent" score in which to bury in the mix, then Talent and Quality doesn't matter. Then by all means get your free composer.

One example, Gorillas in the Mist - great film, but the score stands out at me because it sounds cheap. The quality of the score is bad although the composing (by Maurice Jarre) is fine. The score would have "done it's job" and been transparent had the lack of quality not stood out.

And Poke, yes damn it, you are sexy.

I think the issue for me is the expectation of working for no money. As has been pointed out, making money enables the artist (filmmaker, composer, etc.) to invest in training and tools. So if the film has a budget then everyone should be paid even if it's just a small gesture.

I really like the idea of the sliding scale discount.

Also, I believe that "pay" is not always financial. I thought Hutch's work with the university was an excellent barter. Unfortunately, when no financial pay is involved you don't often see such tangible results. So then you're dependent upon what happens as a result of the project (e.g success level of the film, developed relationships, networking, etc.).

This debate has been going on since the Earth cooled and probably will continue until the mother ship comes back for us all, so in an attempt to try to change the subject: What do you other composers use? Hardware, software, samplers, etc...How do you sync up to picture?

(nice subject change :D )

I use a PC for all my work. I've got a nice sound card which has great synth sounds (yamaha sw1000xg) and I use Cubase SX with Konpakt for samples. I'm just in the process of ordering Garritan Personal Orchestra. If you've never heard of it, it looks great! Check out http://www.garritan.com

I've also got a decent mic (AKG C1000s) and a little Behringer mixer as a pre-amp.

How about you guys?

I have a MAC G4 running Digital Performer. I use Kontakt as a virtual sampler. (Pro-Samples, Roland, & Native Instruments Libraries.) I also have a Roland XV-5080 Sound Module and a Korg X3 Keyboard along with some other outboard gear (ADAT, Delays, Reverb units, etc.) I use a Soundcraft 16-channel mixer and Event 20/20 reference monitors. I convert all films to QuickTime and run them inside of Digital Performer for sync.

I have two turn tables and a microphone!

Poke

I forget... what's a turntable?

8)

I think it's a kind of fish.

Poke

stephen - what do you use to convert the films to Quicktime? Do you tend to get them on dvd anyway, or on tape/film? Cubase SX can load digital film formats (avi/mpg etc) but at the mo, the best thing I have for conversion is a digital camera which can make short (4min) movies. It's OK, especially with a time-coded vhs, but it's not the same as using a dvd.

I prefer and usually ask for the film on Mini DV format, but I can convert from DV CAM, S-VHS, VHS, BETA and even 3/4" to MINI DV and then import it from my camera to my computer as Quick Time. I haven't gotten anything yet on DVD.

When I did the music for the Shaman King (FOX Saturday Mornings) they sent out the scenes as Quick Time files with SMPTE burned in. So that was easy.

(at the risk of sounding stupid....) mini dv - is that as in a hand-help, digital video camera? Which presumably links (what, via usb?) to your computer?

I'm really trying to get used to the different film formats, and ways of converting them onto computer, what gear you'd need etc. Now, the vhs, beta (do people even use betamax these days?) s-vhs - yes, I'm familiar with them, though as yet I don't know what I'd need to accurately transfer onto pc. What's the difference between mini dv ad dvcam?

My camera is a MINI DV (Miniature Digital Video) format digital camera (Sony Handy Cam-type) It hooks up to a PC / MAC via Firewire. USB is usually used for still photo transfers.

My camera has composite (RCA) inputs that will accept video input from pretty much any other video source. You record it on MINI DV in the camera and then upload it to your PC/MAC by Firewire. Some cameras will act as a converter and let you pass the video signal through the camera without recording into the camera first.

There are also straight video converters out there that act as video ports for the PC instead of using a camera at all.

DV CAM tapes are larger in size than MINI DV, hence the name. DV cameras are usually one format or the other, but some DVCAM Decks play and record both formats. MINIs are about the size of a DAT, DV CAM tapes are about the size of an audio cassette tape. There are also many other tape formats for cameras, but you would be best off to get a digital camera.

And yes, I have run into people still using Beta. Mostly for advertising.

Thanks for the info, Stephen - I appreciate it. I've only been in the composition business professionally for less than a year, and have only started seriously looking into film since December, so I've got quite a bit of catching up to do with the technical know-how...:)

Thanks again! :D

Good morning guys (from snowy Atlanta...)

It's been busy around here - sorry I haven't responded sooner. I'm using a Kurzweil 2600xs completely loaded with the orchestral roms. It's been a real treat since I bougth it quite a few years ago. I run it into a Behringer mixer and, from there, into an aural exciter for that crisp FM radio sound and then finally into a studio grade CD live burner. I have my studio monitors tied to the burner so that I hear exactly what the burner is going to record. That has worked out very well.

I have an HP pavillion with Cubase, which I don't really use too much. I prefer to play everything track by track from the keyboard because it allows me to do a better job of controlling the nuances of the individual instruments.

I have Sibelius (which I use for scoring and printing individual parts when they are to be played by a real orchestra.) I just finished scoring a piece for a University Symphony here in Atlanta. It will be performed at their spring concert on April 15 (tax day?). It's interesting that I had recorded the song that they will be performing in my studio before I scored it for the symphony - since it was the closing theme for a production late last year. I had to rearrange it for the symphony because of the absence of some instruments in the symphony such as the harp - which is included in the studio version of the song. If you would like to hear the studio version of the tune, go to www.digitalsoundtracks.com and click to select the samples page and then load down the closing theme from Angel in the Aisles. It's a good tune for demonstrating the range of the 2600.

My first professional scoring job was in 1981 - a film starring Tippi Hedren from Hitchcock's "the Birds" and well known veteran actor Troy Donahue. At that time I was doing radio and TV jingles with a jingle business I started in the 70's.

By the way, the jingle business is a very lucrative business if you're willing to get out and sell. It's also a great way to pay for a studio. I pretty much paid for my first studio with funds from my jingle business ("Audio Advertising"). You guys would crack up at our first jingle. It was for a pet grooming business called "The pampered pet." We spent hours with a 100 foot mic cord chasing my friends dog around the back yard trying to record some of his barks. Isn't this a glamarous business?

I also have a complete editing suite (Adobe Premiere 6.5 and after effects) and own a JVC miniDV for dumping tape to the computer so that I can do the complete sound design job - if needed. In fact, my wife and I incorporated a production company 2 years ago and, after completing 3 productions (2 of which have aired on Atlanta television) we are working on a documentary that I will be scoring later this year. My wife's a great writer and to open up more opportunities for her to write and me to score, we decided the production company was a good way to go. We bought a DVX100 24p camera and invested in lighting and sound equipment. It's been an exciting adventure.

Well, that's the report from snowy Atlanta. It's been great to read about what everyone's doing and using. Keep up the great work everyone!

Kindest Regards,

Hutch DeLoach

I have two turn tables and a microphone!

Poke

LOL! Poke your something. :P

Music is a key element to the film. In my mind as a Producer/Director the score is as important as the actors, DP, production design ect. If it's on the screen or in this case in our ears it should be paid for, on some level. There should always be room for negotiation, like back end points and if the music can be used again on other projects, that starts the scale sliding to higher or lower prices. A major point is often soundtrack album and who retains thoes rights as well.

In the end I think it's fair and just especially if the film has any potential to earn money.

Peace,
Redemption

www.redemptionmovie.com

I wish I'd found this thread earlier, as I'm post production right now and am about to commission a musician.

I think a lot of this debate misses the point. The important thing is to get the right music and the right person on the project. More often than not, it is the soundtrack that makes the movie. The fact that you can get stuff for free, shouldn't ever be the motivation for using it.

In my opinion, no body should ever be asked to just give their work away for nothing. When I was running writing teams in Radio, I would hire someone who had never made a living as a writer before, but who showed promise. The funny thing was, that as soon as they got a wage, as soon as someone said "You are worth $35,000 + dollars a year as a writer" they all became better writers, almost over night. There is something about being taken seriously as a professional (ie. paid) that ups people's game.

This is the reason that I have always prefered defered payment, as a way of securing services, when I haven't had the money up front. The payment is always at union scale for the job and is subject to the project going into profit. Most people understand this and at least we give them a contract which states that they will get paid, when we do. All my people also understand that I am at the back of the payment cue and that they will get paid before I do. This my motivation to get the right price for the project and also my debt of obligation to the people who invest their time and talent in my projects.

Asking people to work for free is like asking for them to pay for your movie, offering defered payments is asking them to become partners in the project.

The other reason for approaching the issue like this, is that it means that you have firm legal ownership of the rights to the music and that means that you won't have to sort out those issues once a distribution company has expressed an interest. Anyone who is using music provided for free, without contracts in place, is just asking for legal hassles further down the line.

The bottom line is, that if you think that someone's music is good enough to be on your film, you have a moral obligation to pay them for it. If you don't have the money then you have to come to a fair agreeement that benefits both them and you. This may mean that, in fact, they never recieve any payment. However, they must have gained in some tangible way, and a credit on a short film, made by someone nobody has ever heard of, probably isn't enough. At the very least they should get multiple copies of the final piece to use as showreel material and the film maker should make sure that the film gets seen. If they are working for you based on exposure, then at least you can do that well, getting the film out to festivals and working hard to promote the piece.

I think the other side of this is that sometimes film makers don't want to work with "professionals" because they haven't sufficient confidence in themselves as professional film makers. In other words, "no one will pay me, why should I pay you." The funny thing is, the best way to start being a professional film maker, worthy of being paid for your work, is to start treating the people you work as professionals. Trust me, you get better work and at the end of the day you don't get let down, because you have contracts in place.

My thanks to Redemption and Clive. Wow!

Stephen,
I just got to listen to your music and look at your credits and there is no way you should be doing stuff for free unless it is a student. I might be calling you for my next project and I will pay!!!!

Peace,
SAR

www.redemptionmovie.com

Sounds promising Stephen - I'd ask him to put that in writing! :P

(Oh, but he just has....)

I have to agree with Clive about the professionalism thing. I know that before I started out professionally, I didn't act professionally - hell, I was just starting to get into making music, and the whole thing was just a bit of fun. But since I started talking the whole thing seriously, I started treating people professionally, even if they're just students having fun. And it's amazing the difference it makes, both to them and to me.

I also think it's great having this two-way, open communication with composers and, well, everyone else!

In most cases (especially in the indie world) a deferred payment contract is ultimately the same as "free." Many who say they will not work for free often include that they will not work with a deferred payment contract contingent on the project making money.

Stephen's comment about the producers on a no budget project still needing to come up with a small amount of pay led me to the impression that he, and perhaps others on this thread, would not work with a deferred payment contract. Other's comments about "bills to pay" helped lead me to that conclusion.

Hopefully I'm hearing something different because I have always considered free and deferred payment to be pretty equal in nature when all things are said and done - the difference being the latter is more professional, tends to build long-term relationships, suggests good will, an on occassion actually results in a check being cut.

I have offered such contracts on most of the projects I have produced and have been on the receiving end of them as well for any serious projects I have scored. Maybe we're all saying the same thing here?

Regards,

Hutch

Hutch,

I think we are all saying the same thing, at least from my point of view. In the past as a crew member I have taken deferred payment, although I have never received a check.

As a producer I prefer to make a small cash sum (shows true good faith) and deferment in some cases a piece of the film. As you said it does foster long-term relationships.

This is a great thread, a lot of good info for everyone.

Peace,
Redemption

www.redemptionmovie.com

I have always considered free and deferred payment to be pretty equal in nature when all things are said and done - the difference being the latter is more professional, tends to build long-term relationships, suggests good will, an on occassion actually results in a check being cut.


Hutch, I couldn't put it any better.

Every gig has to be looked at on their own merit - personally, I'm very happy to work for a lo/no/deferred payment, as a means to build up relationships and experience. In fact, I'm currently working on 2 on that basis, with a third coming up next month.

Obviously, I cannot afford to do this indefinitely, though, and at some point I feel that I will have to start charging where appropriate. That does not mean that I'll never do any more lo/no/def gigs though!

You guys are right, defered payments do get abused.

I've turned down work on films in the past, when I was offered defered payments, simply because the work was on a short and the producer was not being straight with me about their funding situation. Short films almost never make money back and therefore a defered payment is "working for free." The offer of the deferment on most shorts is either dis-honest or niave. On shorts, I'd rather just go out and help out my mates for a few days, than have someone try to sucker me into believing there was a wage attached.

However, a feature, shot on a fully professional format, has a much higher chance of making money back and a defered payment isn't the same thing. I do however think it's sensible to go in with the attitude that you may never see that money back. I think it's important to remember that on projects that are funded via good will (defered payments), that the composer is in the same situation as everyone else on the project. It is their judgement call as to the "marketability" of the project. I do think it's worth asking the Producer where they intend to sell the product, whether they have distribution arranged up front etc. The clearer the Producer's business plan for the feature, the better your chance of being paid. If the answer is "we'll show it around" or "we'll worry about that when the picture is made," chances are that the film will run into distribution problems and payment is less likely. A Producer that can list the distributors that the film is going to be offered to and explain why this film meets their buying profile is a much betteer bet.

On features the thing to watch with defered payments is the position that you are in, in the order of payment. The film will have to put it's cash investors at the front of the list, a good producer will put cast and crew next, with themselves at the back of that list. This isn't always the case.

I think that the bottom line is, that you find people that you like to work with and you trust, you stick with them and don't work for people you aren't sure about. It's in everyone's interest to take good care of the people we work with. The one thing that I insist on, with any project that we undertake, is we pay a wage when we can and if people come out to work for us without a wage, then we try to put as much paid business their way as possible.

Clive & Redemption,

Please feel free to call me for any film you do!

Good Points (especially about the leagl aspect).

Poke

Turning to pop songs instead of scoring, I've run into producers who have put songs into their films only to find themselves in a legal nightmare once they get a distributor interested. They put the song in the film without asking permission and all of a sudden they can't use that key song, vital to the story, because now they have to pay for it and can't afford it. (And probably getting sued for using it in the first place).

Master Use & Sync Licenses are usually not cheap if you go beyond the festival-type license. Should they have thought of that at the beginning? Do you think the publishers of that song would be interested in a backend deal?

There are a lot of legal issues surrounding copyrighted music. I would urge filmmakers to do some homework so they can be prepared and put out a great film with as little music-legal trouble as possible. Filmmakers should know about Master Use, Sync, Re-use fees, work-for hire, authorship, and basic copyright laws and know the process of securing the rights to a song. A little knowledge is a powerful thing.

Thanks for the advice, man. Maybe you could enlighten us on the fundamental (basic) laws of wich you speak, and how to do things legally...(you don't have to if you don't want to, of course).

Logan,

It looks like you ran into a little of this with your film Little Elm. I'll give some pointers in my next post when I have a little more time to type.

Actually, better still. Here is a link to the Film Music Network site. This page might answer a lot of basic questions about music licensing. It is a great resource:

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/faq/8.html

Good information Stephen.

(None of the following information is given as legal advice and should be treated with extreme caution. I am not a lawyer and make no claims to specialist knowledge. Anyone acting on this advice, without taking proper legal council would be very foolish.)

However, a good basic rule for any aspects of film making is

"Unless you have a written and legally binding contract for it, from the script, to the music and even the performances DON'T use it."

This means no adapting other people's book's, using thier characters, using their songs, music, drawings etc., without a negotiated contract.

A UK company (not us), got verbal permission from a member of a signed band to use their music, only to discover, in court, that both the publishing company and the record company owned the rights to the music, not the musican. The settlement figure was fairly substantial.

Another area to be careful of is sound-a-likes, where you record something that is a "tribute" to the original song. It used to be true in the UK, that providing you changed every 7th note, you couldn't be sued. However, that law changed about 5 years ago and now, if the song is clearly recognisaible as having derived from the original, you may get sued sucessfully.

To be perfectly honest, media law is a massive subject and I would recommend any city with a good collection of film makers should to try to persuade a good media lawyer to come out and do a seminar for you.

We've done this before for groups of film makers in the North East of England, the lawyer seeing it as a way of generating new contacts and therefore not charging for the presentation.

Getting everything in writing is the most important point! Thanks Clive.

I know electronic scoring is the norm for indie films, but I just thought I'd ask: Have any filmmakers out there ever had the resources to hire a full live orchestra to record a score? Just wondering, if so, what that experience was like.

Hi Stephen,

Got a question for you too... Do you own any sound effects libraries for doing a cheap version of foley? There are some effects that can be down loaded for free on the internet, but I'm looking for a good CD library if one exists.

Regards,

Hutch

Hutch, sorry to but in on this one, but the BBC sfx library is about as good as it gets. I can't give you a price, shouldn't be difficult to get from bbc.co.uk

If you are looking for sfx and can't afford the discs, it's always worth checking to see if there are any radio commercial production houses near by. They use them all the time and maybe able to lend you what you need etc

Clive,

My mistake for not making it an open-ended question for anyone. Thanks for the excellent input!

Regards,

Hutch

Hey guys !!! Im new to the boards


Im a musician/soundtracker/whatever you want to call it.

Been producing more electronic genre music for 3 years now (im 19), try and play all the instruments, and have finished my debut album that will be released soon..

did the music for dreamer... a film onthe boards at the moment, and lined up to help with a few more.. really into it..

I think my music has a soundtrack quality to it, as its more abuot mood that song.. checkout www.cicatrixonline.co.uk

equipment i use: powerbook running logic, ableton live and cubase, yamaha cs2x, sp505, fender tele with digitech and bluesdeville amp, and a tascam digi 8track..

All good fun !!!! Lets talk...

Josh

There are all sorts of sound effects cds out there - I've managed to come across some copyright-free ones for about 3 quid. Sure they're not great, but for a tight budget, and with a bit of tampering with, they're fine. Then of course there's the hollywood ones, which are around $1,000 per cd mark. Though you can also buy single sfx from them.

But, whichever cds you get, CHECK THE LICENSE! I've already bought some reasonable "royalty-free" sample cds, to find that they are only free if you don't use them commercially. As soon as you use them commercially, you need to licence the sounds from them. And that includes if you use them as a basis for a sound effect (like applying filters, reversing, etc). Others will let you use so many in a given commercial application (like a film, game, etc) before they want a licence fee.

I don't have any SFX cds to recommend, but follow up on Clive and Baz, sounds like good leads.

And welcome Joshtrix! You are in the right place. Most composers join groups like "Film Music Network", which is fine. I belong as well. But if you want to score music to films then you have to hang out where the filmmakers are. And this is one of those nice hangouts. So welcome again.

Hi folks, I'm getting into this discussion kind of late, but I've seen some great thoughts from all. I've been a musician for 20yrs, and composing/producing music for TV and film for around 3 years now, and encountered many of the situations some of the compsers here have described. I definetely feel that composers should get paid for film scoring, but I do freebies as well, when I believe in the project, think it could be a good opportunity for me to build reltionships, or the challenge appeals to me. Also, the more one writes,the better one gets at it, and your personal library of music keeps growing.
On the other hand, I have encountered one or two filmakers who have carried the expectation of a "free" score too far. One guy actually told me he had no budget, fine, if I like the film, and feel that you'll be out there promoting it, I may do it for free. He then told me he would require me to assign all copyrights of the music to him..........yeah, right.

That's another good point, Bruce. When I do student films (for free) I usually sign a Master Use license agreement, which pretty much says, that "this is my music and you can use it in your film." Again, everything in writing.

There are situations were the music is bought out as a "work for hire" deal which changes the scope of the copyright. But this is usually only done on big budget films.

In a paying gig though, the recording of the score, or "the Master recording" should be owned by the producer. That is not to be confused with the copyright. Example: If I record a Frank Sinatra song, I own that recording (or performance) but that doesn't change who owns the authorship of the song. So owning the master is common, but not owning the copyright of the music itself.

In every case, it should be clearly spelled out in a written composer's agreement who owns what.

If some guy wants me to work for free and still wants the rights, ah... I don't think so. Not even the publishing, dude.

Absolutely! In that case, and in general, I tell them the music can be licensed for use in the film, and trailers. The person I referred to was an exception to the norm( I hope). He actually sounded a little offended and perhaps a little angry with me for not wanting to work my ass of for a month or so for no bread, and just give him the results to use as he pleased in perpetuity............oh well. On another note, I checked out your site Stephen, I like what you do. I'd love it if you too a peek and a listen at my site, and gave me some feedback, if you have time.........

Bruce,

Extremely nice site! Very impressive credits too. I could not listen to your audio clips because of a firewall issue, but I liked the intro a lot. It's difficult, even with samplers, to emulate a real orchestra. It takes a writer who knows what a real one is supposed to sound like to do it right and I think you do that very well. I'll have to listen to the other audio clips on a different PC and I'll get back with you.

Do you know Peter Calandra or Pat O'Donnel (some friend musicians who work on Broadway) or perhaps Francis Galluccio? Just wondering if we have any mutual friends in the Big A.

Hmm, talking of location - are there any other British composers reading these threads??

Hey Stephen, I don't know any of those guys, but I haven't done much B'way stuff. Thanks for the compliments!

Baz.. im english too...


Josh
www.cicatrixonline.co.uk

Speaking of English, I had the opportunity to meet John Cleese at a conference last year. He's one of my favorite actors and probably one of the people on my very short list of "most wanted to meet". The best thing was I got to make him laugh a few times. Being he was in Harry Potter my kids thought it very cool that I met him.

My wife bought me the written score to Harry Potter for Christmas. John Williams is a mad man! Seeing the score written out I now have a lot more respect for the talent in LA who can play those many notes.

John Cleese does seem to be an amazing guy - I've seen a few interviews of him. Slightly envious now, Stephen! :mrgreen:

I've been looking at some of the 60's film scores lately - a section from the original Planet of the Apes is part of the 'A' level syllabus over here for some boards - the style of music for that is soooo different to the stuff before and after it. Very modernistic, lots of weird rhythms and sounds. It's also the kinda stuff which can be heard without the visual.

Hey Joshtrix! Another Brit! I was beginning to think it was just me waving the flag! :D

The score for the original Planet of the Apes is amazing. Jerry Goldsmith won an oscar for it. He wrote the avant guard piano part for his teacher and mentor (I forgot his name) who was an accomplished pianist. I doubt he could have given such a part to a regular player for sight reading. The score worked because Goldsmith knew who he was writing for. Amazing score!

What are some of our favorite scores out there and why?

My all-time favorite score is from "The Natural" with Robert Redford simply because the music played such an important role in the "mystical" and "magical" eliments of the story. When those heroic horns play that fanfare-type theme, reserved for the momentus moments of the film, moves me the way a good score should.

I have many other favorites, but this one always stood out for me.

Well... mine would have to be the feather song... Alan Silvestri... forest gump - radical...
Did anyone here find the soundtrack to Lord of the Rings, irritating, repetative and just plain distracting? I did...

I only saw Lord of the Rings (1) in the theatres and yes I found the score to be very boring and distracting and everything else you said. I remember thinking, "I'm glad I didn't write this" while watching the movie. I guess that's pretty bad.

Alan Silvestri, however, is one of the best. Nothing ever boring there.

Stephen,

Great call on "The Natural" - it was a real winner.

I particularly like the work of James Horner. My criticism of him would be that he tends to plagarize his own music. None the less, I like his style. I also like Danny Elfman's stuff a great deal. I'm a hopeless romantic, and his stuff really lends itself to that genre.

But, to answer your question, John Barry heads my list with his score to "Somewhere in Time". The title theme (and perhaps the movie) was written for hopeless romantics like myself. I don't remember a theme that better compliments a story and, at the same time, is memorable but doesn't get in the way of the story. John also did a great job on Dances with Wolves.

Regards,

Hutch

Dances With Wolves! Yes! Beautiful score that was effective but not in the way.

Did you know that the 1st Batman movie (Tim Burton's) was originally going to feature only songs by "the artists formerly known as" Prince instead of the score that was brilliantly done by Elfman? How horrible would that have been!

I don't think I've ever been disappointed by a John Williams score either, except in Harry Potter he borrowed some Star Wars progressions. Great score and very forgivable never-the-less. Anyone remember the J. Williams score to the Posiedon Adventure?

Ah John Williams! The famous musical borrower!

I have often recognised melodic phrases / chord progressions etc from famous classical composers - it's all good though - respect the musical past!

Hmm, it's interesting how the big names get mentioned as being good, while the not-so-well known ones aren't. I would love someone to hear some Horner, say, and be told it was Shore or some random person, and see how that affects their judgement of the piece.

I'm not saying this to be controversial - it's a well known psychological fact, one that businesses use every day in order to sell ordinary items at high prices (the "Brand Name effect"). It's also a test that me and my old composition mentor at Uni did once, and the results can be very surprising!

BTW, I really like Jerry Goldsmith :D , mainly because of his sheer diversity of styles. Comparing things like Planet of the Apes, Alien, or Secret of Nimh (just to mention a few) you can hear how he just goes for it, no matter what the style (or decade!).

And as for Howard Shore - well, he had a short amout of time to make a lot of music, and having to represent several races and cultural groups for the fans and non-believers alike - I personally feel he did a damn good job of it. And to the best of my knowledge (could be wrong, tho!) he didn't use ghost writers.

Phew! Didn't mean to write so much stuff!

So do you guys prefer to write in a certain style? Pastiche? Serialism? Trance/techno? Metal?

Do any of you music guys like Philip Glass? I haven't see it in a long time, but I remember really, really liking the music he did for The Thin Blue Line.

Baz has a good point about name brand composers, but for this discussion and because the composers cover a world-wide area it's easier to relate. Most of us have heard their work so it's easier to discuss Elfman, Goldsmith, Williams, Silvestry and Glass with someone in, let's say, Guam. Lesser-known composers are not worse just because they are not known to the world. So Baz, yes I think you're right.

Who ever heard of Klaus Badelt? I never did until he scored "Pirates of the Carribean". The score was produced by Hans Zimmer but the writing credit was given to Klaus. What a great job he did!

BTW... I'm not a big fan of Phil Glass. I can, and have done, his style before, but I find him extremely boring and unmoving. (Re: score to the documentary The Thin Blue Line)

I liked Phillip Glass's soundtrack to Koyaanisqatsi... but, Stephen, I can see where you're coming from in the sense of long drawn out repatitive parts. Mind you, the Koyaanisqatsi track was very creative and matched the mood, and style of the film very well! Any one agree / disagree?

Did anyone here find the soundtrack to Lord of the Rings, irritating, repetative and just plain distracting? I did...

Fool of a Took! I loved every moment of the score. So many great themes, it rivals Star Wars for great themes.

Do any of you music guys like Philip Glass? I haven't see it in a long time, but I remember really, really liking the music he did for The Thin Blue Line.

I like Glass sparingly. His music works well with Errol Morris, but not so well in other cases (he did the score for Taking Lives, and I found it extremely distracting - yet somehow I still figured out the twist ending, hmmm).

Hmm, it's interesting how the big names get mentioned as being good, while the not-so-well known ones aren't. I would love someone to hear some Horner, say, and be told it was Shore or some random person, and see how that affects their judgement of the piece.

Well before I get to some lesser knowns, John Williams is the master, Danny Elfman is second, Silvestri Third.

Other than that, I will like any score that's well done. Jon Brion comes to mind as a lesser known. He did great work on Magnolia and I just saw Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and I liked his stuff there as well. John Ottman has done some really good work, most notably The Usual Suspects (I also loved his score for The Cable Guy, even though it wasn't a very big part of the movie). The late, great Michael Kamen did some good work. I think when James Newton Howard works with M. Night he does some spectacular stuff, but other than that he's just average. I loved The Dust Brothers' work on Fight Club. I love Harry Gregson-Williams and John Powell's work on all the Dreamworks animated films (Antz, Chicken Run, Shrek). And last but not least, I love the work of the guy that I'm beginning a colaboration with, he's about as unknown as you can get.

Poke

By the way, as of this post we are at 60 replies and 620 views for this thread. (I'm sure Matte is glad we got off his thread.) What's the record IndieTalk?

Thanks for making this thread so popular folks!


Shot R., I have heard Koyaanisqatsi but haven't seen it. (but still ... ZZzzzzzzzz....)

What's the record IndieTalk?

I haven't been here since the very beginning, but I came a couple of months after it. I wanna say that this is the hands down winner so far, but just to warn you I'm thinking of starting a Jar Jar thread in The Lobby.

Poke

Pokewow? Jar Jar? Nooooooooooooo! (as if falling down a bottomless pit)
Yes indeed this is a very good thread.
Stephen, you should definately see 'Koyaanisqatsi' = visual / musical master piece.
Poke, the eye of (saramon?) (sardine?) (salad cream?) (er...) is watching you! And I still think the LOTR sound track is boring, and repetative! ;)

What about the old classic black and white films from way gone... for instance the sound track to those classic war films, romantics, horrors!? Any takers?
Psycho soundtrack - Awwwwww NICE! quiet possibly the best horror / slasher / thriller sound track to date!

Hmm, it's interesting how the big names get mentioned as being good, while the not-so-well known ones aren't. I would love someone to hear some Horner, say, and be told it was Shore or some random person, and see how that affects their judgement of the piece.


Baz,

I'm sure that what you describe does happen, but not in this case. I can say that objectively because there is one thing that Horner did, that I hate! In fact, although I place Horner in my top tier of favorite composers, I still credit one of his efforts as literally the worst thing I have ever heard associated with a film score - BAR NONE!!!!

While I really like the score he did for "The Perfect Storm", the piece at the end where he turns his main theme into a pop song with vocals (performed by John Mellencamp no less) is at the top of my "Worst music of all times" list. It was co-written with someone named George Green who apparently has no other writing credits to his name (make that shame.) It sounds to me like Horner scored an instrumental piece and someone came behind it and tried to add words where words never belonged. Heck, they might as well have tried to add words to the Theme from Star Trek - it might have actually sounded better! :D

Anyway, back to Horner, he uses an effect over and over in each of his scores. In fact, I hear it so frequently now that I have been able to predict that he scored several movies lately before I saw his name in the credits. He'll write a couple of bars, provide a big pause, and then answer it with a single note in the lowest registers of a sweetened grand piano. I liked the approach and mimicked a piece of it it in a recent project I scored. Pick any of his scores and you will almost consistently find that progression in it.

There is another progression, not worth mentioning, that he also uses over and over again. I heard someone sometime back accuse him of stealing from his own tunes. I thought they were sour grapes, but I have since realized they were right on the money. None the less, I think the guy is one of the best writers on the market and I like what he does...

Regards,

Hutch

I mentioned in the first page of this thread my recent opportunity to compose a piece for symphony and have it performed locally. Well, the 4 minute romantic piece, entitled "Patty's Song", is finished, has been rehearsed, and will be presented in concert on April 15, 2004 by the University of West Georgia Symphony, in Carrollton Georgia, with the composer conducting. The piece and the performance are both being dedicated to my wife.

I know you guys are mostly out-of-towners, but just wanted you to know you're invited if you are in the neighborhood. Concert begins at 8:15 PM on April 15 (tax day) at the University of West Georgia concert hall in Carrollton, Ga.

Regards,

Hutch

Will you be making a recording of the concert that you could post online? I don't know how practical that is in this situation so I may be sticking my foot in my mouth here :oops: . In any case, best wishes with this and I hope to hear it someday!

@Hutch - thanks for the offer - I think the flight might be a bit pricey, though :cry:

And what a great response! I'm really glad my comments opened up the box for discussion.

@Shot Renegade - you guys probably never heard of it, but I had to teach some 'A' level stduents (17-18yr olds) about some music from a 1950's comedy called Passport to Pimlico. Personally, I hate that style of music for film - I guess it's film music in it's pre-pubity stage! Far too active, without much thought for what's actually going on on-screen. But it can work OK as a piece to listen to with no visuals.

Shaw,

You read my mind... Will do my best to get a recording online...

Thanks for asking.

Regards,

Hutch

Baz, yea, know what you mean by those old classics... the melodies smother the action - euurrrgggh!
One film that does have a good score is 'Suddenly last Summer'.

Hutch,

Good luck with your piece! I'm sure we would all love to hear it.

Shot, what year was "Suddenly" out?

Stephen, suddenly last summer was out in 1959 and was directed by Joseph L. Mankiewicz.

It's got liz taylor and katherine hepburn in it.

If you ever watch it look out for the garden scene - brilliant! fantastic set design.

It's also a compositional masterpiece in terms of picture.

Some of my favorite "war movie" scores:

Patton, The Great Escape, (& Chicken Run!) and the recent - Pearl Harbor.

Although it was quite a bad movie... well bad in the sense of the story had multiple endings and speilburg should really have known better!

What did people think to the score of Speilburg / Kubrick's AI?

Some of my favorite "war movie" scores:

Patton, The Great Escape, (& Chicken Run!) ...

All awesome. I remeber the first time I heard Elmer Bernstein's (there's a great name I don't think has been mentioned) score for The Great Escape. I couldn't get it out of my head for months. The same goes for Goldsmith and Patton. When I purchased the score for Chicken Run before the film came out (remember I said I was a Gregson Williams and Powell fan) I knew the movie was gonna be great.

... and the recent - Pearl Harbor.

I was feeling good, but now you brought me down. Really? Pearl Harbor??? The movie was really, insanely bad. But I don't remeber the score that well, although I never really liked anything Hans Zimmer did with the exception of Broken Arrow and Gladiator.

Although it was quite a bad movie... well bad in the sense of the story had multiple endings and speilburg should really have known better!

What did people think to the score of Speilburg / Kubrick's AI?

I'm sorry but I loved AI, no matter what you fools say it ended fine (okay it would have been better if it ended with David and Teddy trapped under the ocean, but the sentient beings made sense as well). And you can never go wrong with John Williams. I think it's his most ecclectic and subdued work.

Poke

I have to agree with Baz about Jerry Goldsmith. Like John Williams, he started writing in the early 50's and is still going strong with an incredible range. My favorite score of Goldsmith's is his score for "Rudy" - especially the main theme and the piece behind the football game at the end. Nice music and truly in the style for which I most enjoy writing.

Back at FSU, when I studied film scoring, they showed us a documentary of Earle H. Hagen. Now there's a little known name although his first work is documented in 1947 and he too has been going strong every since. The reason he's little know is because he almost exclusively composed for TV series. One of my favorites of his was the theme for Mod Squad - a 1968 TV series (which, by the way, had it's theme also show up in Cable Guy.) But, everyone knows at least one of his tunes including themes from Gomer Pyle, Andy of Mayberry, Dick Van Dyke Show, I Spy, Mash, That Girl, and Dukes of Hazard.

Another great TV composer, who started in the late 50's, is Lalo Schifrin (born in Argentina) who is probably best known for Mission: Impossible's TV theme and the adapted movie theme - which he also did. In fact, that theme is what carried him in 1996 from TV themes to film scores - although he hasn't done anything significant since he made the break.

Can't leave this note without mentioning one other TV composer. I started noticing his name back in 1975 because he had the same name as a very good friend of mine - Mark Snow. Also, I noticed him because his first TV theme was Starsky and (should I say it?) Hutch... He has worked consistently for the last 29 years with close to 200 TV themes to his credit - probably best known for X Files.

Regards,

Hutch

[I never really liked anything Hans Zimmer did with the exception of Broken Arrow and Gladiator.
]

I don't remember the Broken Arrow score, but I'm so Gladiator! (OK, I'll wait for the chuckle...)

I liked the Gladiator score on it's own merrits, but I thought the main theme had NOTHING to do with the time and place of the story. Why have an Indian singer singing chants in a Roman setting? It didn't make sense to me. I thought it was great music, but misplaced in the film. Beautiful, but wrong.

And how do you get the quote to come up in that white little box on these posts?

TV composers do sometimes get left on the side unfortunately. Mark snow is one of my favorites as well. One of John Williams' first TV gigs was "Lost In Space". Great theme.

And how do you get the quote to come up in that white little box on these posts?

Stephen,

To make it simple, go to a post where they are not quoting anyone. In the upper right corner, click on the quote button. Now their entire message will be one single quote on your note. Just click preview at that point to see the effect. Back in the editor for your note, You will notice a a quote tag at the beginning and a slash quote tag at the end. Everything inside will appear in the quote box. If you don't want to quote the entire post, remove what you don't want down to just what you want to quote.

Also, you can type in something, highlight it, and click the quote button in the editor and it will put whatever you highlighted in quotes too. In fact, you can just type in the bracket, quote, bracket yourself if you want to and then at the end of the quote type in the bracket slash quote bracket.

Hope that all makes sense. Happy quoting, but don't quote me on it. :D

Just kidding...

Regards,

Hutch

Hutch wrote:
In the upper right corner, click on the quote button. Now their entire message will be one single quote on your note. Just click preview at that point to see the effect. Back in the editor for your note, You will notice a a quote tag at the beginning and a slash quote tag at the end. Everything inside will appear in the quote box.

OK, I think I got it now. Thanks Hutch.

Page 7! We are rollin'!

One other recent composer not named yet is Don Davis. (Matrix, Jurassic Park III...) John Williams hand-picked Davis to do Jurassic Park III as a sort of successor. I met Don while he was recording the original Matrix score in LA. What a talented nice guy. Here is someone who can come in with an original approach but still have that "conformist" sound. He came up in the ranks as an orchestrator.

By the way, we were speaking about Goldsmith's score of Planet of the Apes. His mentor who played the virtuoso piano that I could not remember was Jacob Gimpel. Did you know Goldsmith used upside down stainless steel mixing bowls with mallets as part of the percussion? This might come in handy at your next Trivial Pursuit game night.

8)

Who did the music to 'Road to Perdition' and what did people think?

One other recent composer not named yet is Don Davis.

I liked Davis's work on the original Matrix, but I found the score for the other two to be mere rehashes. I did like the score for JPIII, even though it (again) was a rehash of the original theme.

Who did the music to 'Road to Perdition' and what did people think?

Thomas Newman. He also did the score for American Beauty by Mendes. But his best score is by far for Finding Nemo.

Poke

Thomas Newman! I knew that damn it! - hang on a sec... wasn't one of the cast 'paul newman?' :? heheee...
Without going too much off topic: I was shocked by Mendes' attempt at Road to Perdition. Especially after American Beauty - er... what happened mr mendes?!!!?

I was shocked by Mendes' attempt at Road to Perdition. Especially after American Beauty - er... what happened mr mendes?!!!?

What happened is that he made a damn good movie.

Poke

Star Trek, the original movie, was on last night. What great music. It's a case where the music is a significant part of the experience - not subtle, but bold (kind of like Star Wars, Superman, etc...)

I really took time to pay attention to the music since I've seen the movie more than once. The cues he had to write for the score were difficult to say the least - especially in terms of timing.

It reminds me of an interview I heard with John Williams about two years ago. Apparently he was pedaling his first (non film related) album of original works. He stated that it was wonderful to be able to write something where he didn't have to write 8.5 seconds of suspense, followed by 11 seconds of crescendo up to a 2 second climax followed by 7 seconds of peace leading into... you get the idea... (I paraphrased his comments.) Man can I relate! When possible it's a wonderful relief when the editor can cut to the music.

OK, that brings up a whole other can 'o worms...

I CAN'T STAND when a filmmaker wants music BEFORE I see a scene. They will attempt to describe the scene and say, "I need the music ahead of time to help me edit the film/scene." - No, no, no, no! I've done this a few times, under much duress. If this comes up now I tell them to pick some existing music (bach, mozart, newman, williams, etc...) that fits the mood of the movie and use this as a TEMP track. (Temp tracks can be both good and bad, but that's another discussion.) I feel that the scene tells me the tempo, the key, the emotion, etc. and that the music written for that scene will be "married" to it and non other. Editing the other way, film to music, comes out looking like a corporate training video.

But that's just my opinion.

Just visualizing how I will be approaching my composers, I have to agree that I could never demand a score based off of what I visualize the scene to be. Maybe a generic loop or something like that, but if its gonna be scored, the composer needs to have the timecode burned scene in front of them most definitely. But Steven you also have to keep in mind a filmmaker may want those sample loops or whatever to play over the rough edits for the studio or investors. I have seen a good number of screeners or rough edits that only have the beginning of a song laid over a scene just to set the mood - a temp track - but it would still be best to get those quickies from the composer rather than pre-existing music... it might screw up the creativity of the composer to have to follow in the line of a Mozart or a Williams.

Besides that I would use Horner's Rocketeer theme for every scene so that wouldn't do you much good :P

I agree with Stephen, want is the point of using a composer if you don't let them see the footage before composing, you may as well use library music.

The only time that having the music before the edit works well, is when you're using existing, recorded songs and the song is part of the narrative. That way you know before shooting, that you want to cut to that song.

I think because a lot of filmmakers have an almost music video approach to production, it seems natural to them to cut to the music, but if I remember rightly, that practice doesn't go back much further than Easy Rider.

We may be confusing two situations here.

The first situation is an indie filmmaker who manages to secure licensing for 10 songs from a band or a composer. That filmmaker then has to work with those sounds to acheive his DPM, he doesn't have a choice! It ends up seeming more like a music video as you said clive because the video follows the audio in obvious ways.

The second situation is the budgeted filmmaker who can afford a cinematic composer to score the tracks. This may be where the indie low budget tendancies carry over, they may try to get the cart before the horse and get the composer to start working based on ideas and script rather than video. Of course the real way it works is the video or film is shot, burned with timecode, and then discussed ad naseum for the mood before the composer ever strikes a chord. The end result is a pleasing visual cut with an appropriate punched up score to back it up.

Agreed. A while back I was asked to score a short documentary for a film festival. Although I was given no specific musical direction, the director and editor did discuss at length certain aspects of the piece they wanted to emphasize with the music. After rejecting my first mock up (first minute), they then sent me the temp track they had been using as an example. I was flabergasted because the music was so antithetical (imo) to the feeling/sibject of the documentary. So we had another meeting to discuss what they saw in this music as it related to the piece at which time they told me they me it was used to edit the piece. By then, I knew this was a sinking ship in terms of scoring the project. I stuck with it through two more demos which didn't go over well and then backed out. For me those last two passes were very stressful because I basically found myself trying to emulate music I felt very strongly was wrong. Big lesson learned!

I'm certainly not against temp tracks. I actually find them enlightening if the filmmaker has found one that fits the project.

As for doing music before I see the film, the most that I will do is talk general concepts. I have to see something to start writing concrete music since the "look" of a scene dictates a lot for me. However, for short previews (investor showings, trailers, etc.) I do work with unedited footage.

If a filmmaker wants to use a piece of music for the trailor or demo of the film, that's fine. Even most high-budget trailors don't use the actual score music initially anyway. They usually have some appropriate music to edit the trailor to. Some companies even specialize in scoring only trailors. All good, well and fine.

Some filmmakers though like to have the music, I mean the actual score, as an inspiration for the editing process and use it to guide them through the edit. This, of course as said, is bassakwards. But its a habbit some of them fall into early on and can't seem to trust their own editing abilities, or trust the composer to do their job later on.

I'll have to take issue with you Stephen. I think you have over-simplified to make such a strong case that something is backwards without qualifying your statement. It totally depends upon the situation...

For example, I have done 2 pieces in the last 2 years without seeing a bit of footage and the editor cut to the music. Keep in mind that, first of all, I know it's unusual. However, in these cases, where it was purely a music montage (various scenes indicating the passage of time with a music bed being the only audio in the scene) it worked and was extremely effective. I was told exactly what the scenes entailed before composing the 2 pieces, but did not see the scenes. And that's exactly what I was referring to when I said:

When possible it's a wonderful relief when the editor can cut to the music.

It's simply 1) not as much work for the composer and 2) an opportunity to take extra liberties or, said another way, enjoy the unusual compositional freedom with regard to the timing of the piece.

Also, keep in mind I'm not talking about a music video type situation. I'm simply talking about a nice theme (no vocals) behind an important scene. An old film that comes to mind, where this situation is used, is "The Secret of My Success" with Michael J. Fox. Probably not high on everyone's list of must see movies (although I really liked the story) but, toward the end when Michael's character is soliciting support from various financial backers, there's a nice music montage as he visits the various backers. I really like the innocence of the song too.

Just food for thought from another perspective...

By the way, I just landed a deal to score a comedy feature length story shot on 16mm film. Haven't scored anything but video for quite a while, so this ought to be fun.

Regards to all,

Hutch

I disagree hutch. The music will always be better when composed to the visuals and not the other way around. (yes, big general statment) The music might be "free-sounding" but will not "marry" to the scene as well. Like Clive said, you might as well use library music.

What if, in that montage, there is a facial expression or something else very subtle that the music could have brought out? Your pre-scored track will miss it. So sorry, I disagree totally. Write the scene!

Now if we are talking "song" instead of "score" than that is a different issue.

Well, how about this for a weird compromise, with the worst of both worlds. I'm currently working on the score for a film from the States - but it's in Hindu! Talk about writing blind. Never mind about subtleties - I needed the scene description sheet to realise that two characters were telling jokes! It has got to be the hardest learnt lesson I've had to date - make sure you know the language of the film you're writing for!

Baz,

When I worked on scoring the Shaman King cartoon, we (the composers) got the original Japanese versions to start scoring to, along with a printed translated script in English. We had to start the scoring process before the voice actors here had time to dub the cartoon into English. Needless to say, most music cues had to be altered after the English versions came in because there was such a difference in "attitude" in how they said different lines. Example, in one of my cues, a Japanese voice actor said a line very simpathetically so I scored it accordingly, while the English actor later said the same translated line more sarcastic. Big difference in music!

I feel for you, man.

By the way, bringing non-film composers into the discussion, any Respighi fans out there? ("Pines of Rome", "Fountains of Rome") "Feste Roman" is one of my all-time favorite 20th century works. Anyone ever heard of him?

Guess not....

How about Holst (The Planets)?

I can say with hand on heart that I have never heard of Respighi. Holst, on the other hand, is a big fav of mine. I played Viola for Jupiter once - that was damn good fun - and needless to say I love Mars. Though, I'm really not a fan of his Military Band stuff, though the folk tune stuff is quite nice.

I wonder if there was ever a film made that didn't use "Mars" as a temp track. I often hear similar motifs in scores and can almost hear the conversation between the director and composer... "Well, how close can you come to this Mars track, because I really like it and it works with the scene."

LOL! I know exactly what you mean! Though for me, the most exciting rip-off of Mars was on an old computer game of mine, which had it playing during a fight.....ooh, the excitement!

The most recent Mars rip off I found was in a cue from Harry Potter (J. Williams) although it was disguised in 5/4. Sneaky!

By the way, we have over a hundred post and over a thousand views now, do we all get a free toaster or something?

Here's a question for you: I'm nearly finished working on the music for a film. Now most of it's fine - but for one cue, they wanted me to use a Classical piece of music. I've orchestrated and arranged it, so I think I get around needing a sync licence from anyone. But - as the piece is Debussy's Deux Arabesque - I'm wondering if it's still ok to use this piece for copyright reasons. Does anyone know if the copyright to the piece itself is gone now?

Cheers

Hi,

i am an young Composer from Germany who is looking to write some Music for American amateur- and student-movies to update my composer knowledge.

I always written some Film-music here in Germany for Indy- and amateur-Filmer's, but i want to work International and want to met new peoples around the World.

I'm in contract with a German music publisher company named Edition Ramundi. They will publish the Score i wrote for films and my classical works...

You will find some Samples and Music-works from me on my website just click here!

I'm every time interested on writing music for interesting films...


many greetings,

Florian Linckus

Thomas Newman. He also did the score for American Beauty by Mendes. But his best score is by far for Finding Nemo.



I like Newman's American Beauty and Shawshank Redemption more. I haven't actually heard Finding Nemo, but I'm not big on animated scores... too many flutes or something. My favorite animated score is the Lion King by the fabulous Hans Zimmer. Anything else is a distant second.

Okay, so do you composers like synths/samplers or live instruments? Personally, I'd love to work with a string quartet sometime, but it's just so damned expensive once you factor in the recording, and modern sample based orchestras in softsamplers sound incredible... not as good as the original, but perhaps easier and cheaper to work with.

Anybody produce electronic music for film?

Florian,

I have an ultra low / no budget horror film that was shot mostly on 16mm, we are currently shooting a couple of scenes in 24P (or actually, trying to raise money to do so), but we hope to be fully into post by the 1st week of October. Would you be interested in doing some score work for a vampire film? Email me at filmproducts@hotmail.com

I will also try to get a hold of you through this site.



Hi,

i am an young Composer from Germany who is looking to write some Music for American amateur- and student-movies to update my composer knowledge.

I always written some Film-music here in Germany for Indy- and amateur-Filmer's, but i want to work International and want to met new peoples around the World.

I'm in contract with a German music publisher company named Edition Ramundi. They will publish the Score i wrote for films and my classical works...

You will find some Samples and Music-works from me on my website just click here!

I'm every time interested on writing music for interesting films...


many greetings,

Florian Linckus