I'm doing a little bit of research right now and thought I would share my findings. I'm trying to push my work up to the next level. One of the things that I would like to do (and I'm sure most composers and filmmakers) is record with a live orchestra. However on the indie low-to-no budget level, this is a pretty unattainable goal, unless you've got money to play with.

I had heard that working with European orchestras (particularly those in the Czech Republic) are a good modest budget solution. It's not uncommon to have a score played by a lower budget orchestra, and then augmented with sampled instruments, electronics, percussion, etc.

Most orchestras will give you a price quote on request, but as that I don't have specific needs at the moment, I've been looking for general "ballpark figure" quotes. Among the orchestras I was looking at, I came across the Brno Philharmonic Orchestra (http://www.brnorecordings.com/). Again, they list "e-mail us for quotes", but unlike many others, they DO have some quotes for small sessions that will be useful to estimate costs. In these sessions, you can monitor remotely at an hourly rate (instead of booking a full day). Detailed information is here: http://www.czechrecordings.com/remote.htm In summation:

A normal recording session is broken up into 3 1-hour sessions (1 hour playing, 30 minute break, repeat).
You get up to a 70 piece orchestra. You can add players for an additional fee, but reducing players will not reduce the fee (they pay the musicians for the whole day).
1 hour recording will average around 5-7 minutes recorded music. More or less depending on the complexity of the cue you are working on.
This does include a conductor and recording staff, however, you get the music unedited, unmixed and unmastered (this is a good thing if you are planning on augmenting the score).
Current rate is 2,750 euro, or around $3,671.33 per hour (according to today's exchange rates).

So what does that mean for a score? Take a 90 minute feature. You'll have between 40 and 60 minutes of music (we'll split the difference and say 50), not counting any licensed incidental music (songs by bands, etc). So that means you would need between 8 and 10 sessions to record all the music for a feature. Now, if you're booking the orchestra outright for a couple days, the price might be a little lower (you can also do smaller ensembles; since you're not doing the pre-book days they don't have to have a harpist on the clock that isn't doing anything), but again, this is just an estimate. So we're looking at between $29,370.64 and $36,713.30 for a complete score, not counting the composer and any assistants, orchestrators or copyists involved (these people will all cut the time down dramatically).

Okay, real world terms. In Hollywood, music is usually 1-2% of budget (indie budgets are always different in lots of ways). So if we're paying $35k for a live orchestra, we'll be generous and give the composer and even $50k to work with (I'm not sure what, say, Howard Shore takes for his fee versus what he pays musicians and employees, that might be a good number for me to research next). If this is 1% of budget, we're looking at a $5 million film. At 2%, a $2.5 million dollar film. Yikes!

So even with a relatively inexpensive European orchestra, this is well above what most people here have to play with for a feature. Depending on the money you have, sinking that much into getting a live orchestra might be worth it...again, as well all know, budget percentages are far from standard on the indie level. I know from my own work, the more live instruments I record in a given work, the better it is received (though part of that is my own skill growth as well).

HOWEVER, there is another way to utilize this information. Say, for example, we're dealing with a 250k feature with a music budget of 5k. That could get you one hour of record time, for 5-7 minutes. Not enough for a score, but enough for a couple highlighted cues. Put one near the beginning, one at a dramatic peak of the film, and another near the end (in cases where a pop song is not licensed for end credits, you could even re-use one of those there). Starting strong to get peoples' attention, and end strong so it's what they last remember.

Another option for lower budget orchestras is student orchestras. Here in Pittsburgh there are a lot of schools with a music program (a really good one at Duquesne University), though I don't know if they perform material not by students. I'll be doing some research into that next, and let you guys know what I find out!

I don't think it's out of reach. I don't think low-budget indie filmmakers spend nearly enough on music. It's an incredibly huge part of the experience.

I don't think it's out of reach. I don't think low-budget indie filmmakers spend nearly enough on music. It's an incredibly huge part of the experience.

Well, I don't disagree with that, but I wasn't going to say, me being more than a little biased there ;)

I don't think it's out of reach. I don't think low-budget indie filmmakers spend nearly enough on music. It's an incredibly huge part of the experience.

I agree, good sound and music, is half of joure movie.

What about High School orchestras? Colleges around... lots of students are looking to boost their experience and resumes so that when they get out of academia, they have a portfolio. Community Orchestras are good sources, go to a performance of your nearest one, then approach some of the performers or the conductor after the performance and ask if it's even a possibility. No money needs be discussed when gauging interest either. You don't have to say low budget either. Excitement about the project and possibilities will make the $$$ negotiation much easier afterwords... also, keep in mind that when you start looking outside your normal group, you'll need to have something to barter with... having a distribution plan in place and on paper (a media kit or a prospectus in hand) will go a long way in convincing them that their work will get to an audience.

At the "Hollywood" level the composer gets paid (and possibly points) to score the film and to consult on the recording sessions. If the composer also conducts then an additional fee to conduct is negotiated. The costs for hiring the orchestra are a separate part of the post budget.

Obviously this works much differently at the indie level - as does just about everything else. A growing practice is to build a synth/sample score and supplement it with real musicians. A string quartet (possibly double tracked) over the synth/sample strings imparts a tremendous amount of realism; the same applies to the other sections. This allows for much smaller musician budgets (the "prodigies" from a conservatory can be your musicians), and also for smaller studio budgets - you no longer need a full scoring stage. This allows for consistency of the score throughout the entire film rather than a limited number of standout cues.

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=36501
IMHO, the short in this link was "made" by the moving music.

Go music!
Go score!

Josh. I'm begging you. Please. Don't you dare go and spend that entire $35,000 check for your handiwork on Sheryl's Keyosk on some fly-by-night Internet orchestra! I can get you some third-party plug-ins and samples from a guy I know (who knows a guy who has a cousin) here in the L.A. area. And I know someone who plays the triangle so there's that, too. Save that money, dude. It's better spent on a fancy Christmas bathrobe or ermine slippers for your lady. Treat yourself right! P

Josh. I'm begging you. Please. Don't you dare go and spend that entire $35,000 check for your handiwork on Sheryl's Keyosk on some fly-by-night Internet orchestra! I can get you some third-party plug-ins and samples from a guy I know (who knows a guy who has a cousin) here in the L.A. area. And I know someone who plays the triangle so there's that, too. Save that money, dude. It's better spent on a fancy Christmas bathrobe or ermine slippers for your lady. Treat yourself right! P

Oh, man, that Keyosk scratch is long since gone on chemical entertainment and attractive women of questionable virtue!

Seriously though, just fact finding for now. Any decent paydays are definitely going towards upgrading the sample libraries that I use. I've sent a few e-mails off to directors of local college orchestras to see if anything can happen. I do have a couple contacts for beefing up a sequenced score, as Alcove suggested (and, again, playing more things that I can live will help). I'm trying to find all the stepping stones between where I am right now and the proverbial Big Time, and how to do it cost effectively both for myself and the productions I'm working on. And, of course, sharing what I find with the rest of you!

As a composer, of course, we all dream of having a hundred people realizing our vision. It's sort of the reason why you guys become directors ;-)

Live orchestra is out of reach at the moment but your study, research and thoughts on the matter are greatly appreciated, at least for me. Something to ponder, indeed.

Hi Josh.

A live orchestra is out of reach for most indie films. Supplementing a midi mock up with a few great live players is more realistic for some. If you are using an orchestra they have to be very good because if they are not super players it will be horrible.

Composers who can put together awesome sounding midi mock ups make directors very happy. You're right to be investing in the best sample libraries you can get and spending the enormous amount of time it takes to twist them into realistic sounding mock ups. It's just the most practical solution when you're dealing with an indie budget. It also increases your chances of making a living at the indie level.

Many of the top Hollywood composers use a combination of live orchestra and samples even on big budgets.

I think I've probably said this before, in a different thread, but I think it bears repeating.

I don't believe any form of art makes a more direct connection with human emotion than music. Musical expression is one of the VERY few things that is universal to ALL human societies. Even some non-human primates have what could be considered a form of music. Anyway, though there is no way to know this, I believe it is likely that musical expression is older than our very species -- much older. I believe musical expression is very much part of being human, and I'm not just talking about culture but our genes. It's in our blood to be musical!

So as filmmakers, we should recognize the importance of this very effective tool in establishing an emotional connection with our audience. What they hear can be more powerful than what they see. Us low-budget indie guys recognize the importance of a strong script, strong acting, strong cinematography, and strong audio. But music seems to be an afterthought. This is so wrong!

Music needs to be a forethought. It should be one of the most important issues we consider, in every project, no matter the budget.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, in this thread, but hopefully some newb will see my rant and give it some thought. Cheers!

Music needs to be a forethought. It should be one of the most important issues we consider, in every project, no matter the budget.

+1

Yes! What Ernest said. Looking forward to hearing what else you learn. Thank you very much for sharing, Josh.

Hi Josh,

I recorded in Prague with a 70-pc orchestra a couple of years ago. Everyone there was extremely professional and it went very well. I have also recorded in Los Angeles a few times. Here are some thoughts:

When you're putting together a professional orchestra, the minimum call is usually 3 hours plus the breaks, even for a non-union group. A full day of recording is 2 x 3-hour sessions.

On the web-site you mention, they are organizing the full session (3 or 6 hours) and then splitting up the time between different composers – that way you can book just an hour.

Right now the price in Prague to record one 3 hour session with 70 musicians at one of the studios is approximately 10,000 USD. That's with the studio and engineers. The only thing that doesn’t include is the music preparation and the mixing afterwards.

To do the same thing in LA would be upwards of 22,000 USD depending on some details. You can see AFM rules and rates on the web.

In Prague, there were almost no issues with the strings, woodwinds, or percussion; however, the brass players had some trouble with more complicated passages and this slowed down the session a little. When you record in LA, this sort of thing is never a worry.

In Prague, I recorded 20 minutes of music in 3 hours and that was pushing the limit.

At the top echelon in Hollywood usually the composer gets a creative fee and then the studio will pay for all the production costs of recording the score. Anything below this level, package deals are the standard (meaning the composer is given the entire music budget to produce the score).

As someone else mentioned it’s very common to have some live musicians playing along with virtual tracks in smaller budget stuff, to improve to the sound.

This is a link to some of the stuff I recorded: film-music-for-orchestra (http://soundcloud.com/iainkelso/sets/film-music-for-orchestra/)

Cheers,
Iain

That's a very helpful post, iaink. Thanks for the info!

I'm wondering if there might be a university orchestra that would be interested in providing the score for a feature film. I wonder if anybody would be able to get away with only paying for recording, not the musicians. Crazy thought, probably not possible, but maybe?

I think if you are on a real small budget or micro budget the scores that videocopilot have are good.

https://www.videocopilot.net/products/proscores/

Rocker, we're talking about not doing that. There's no replacing an original composition, with live performers.

ProScores is pretty rad, for what it is, though. I dig it. :)

I think before you decide on whether you want an orchestra or not, you should first decide how much music you want in your film, or have you already? Sometimes only a little music during the dramatic parts is all you need, at least that's how I find it with a lot of films. Sometimes less is more, depending on that less being really good.

As far as getting pre-recorded music, wouldn't it be better to hire someone who has a synthesizer, who can synthesize an orchestra for you? It would sound as good as a live orchestra, but it will sound a lot better than music that is pre-recorded, and not composed to match the editing of your film.

Fantastic info, iaink! Really useful to know about the specific weakness in the brass...I had heard that the brass wasn't as good (generally speaking), but no one had specifics as to why. When I get to that level, I think the answer would probably be write simple brass parts and overdub solos/complicated passages. Definitely gives me a good baseline on what it would cost. If 20 minutes pushes the session, I would imagine 4 sessions for an hour's worth of music would play it safe, provided I was going for a 100% orchestral score. So that'd be around 40k in Europe and 88k in LA. Way past budgets on anything I've worked on so far, but definitely good to have numbers to shoot for!

Cracker, I've made some contact with local universities. Nothing really solid yet (I think they'll be more interested in me once I have a few more features under my belt), but here's what I've learned so far, locally for me:
University of Pittsburgh - not really a great orchestra, and not really interested. The director did suggest flyering the music department for soloists, which is a good idea. Students always need money, and for $100 and some pizza I could get a player to beef up a score.
Carnegie Mellon University - no response yet (though gotta love a school that specializes in fine arts and computer science!) I do know some people on campus though, and have some contacts at the radio station, so when the semester starts up, I'll drop by and talk to some people.
Duquesne University - AWESOME orchestra, but they're not really interested in doing stuff by non-students. If I took a couple classes there, however...of course that'd be more expenses ;-) That said, I do know a former composition grad student who I sent an e-mail to; see if he knows who I should talk to. Kicking myself in retrospect, I was once asked to teach a class there, for which I was HORRIBLY underqualified. Maybe I should try to BS my way in there!

In conclusion I think for any work I do in 2012 will be sequenced, augmenting with live musicians as possible and money allows. I'm years away from being professional, but it's good to have milestones and goals to shoot for!

That has been my experience with University orchestras.

The instructors have a full curriculum and setting that aside
for several weeks to learn and record a score for a movie for
either free or for very little money is not part of that.

One possibility is to contact the instructor a year (or more)
before the school year and pitch your project as part of the
curriculum for that year.

I have found that hiring newer musicians for "$100 and some
pizza" creates very long sessions that can drive people crazy.
Recently we hired five string players to multi-track. We recorded
three, three hour sessions and got everything we needed. A few
years earlier I tried the student musician route - it look closer to
20 hours to get what we needed.

So as with everything else you deal with the triangle - good/fast/cheap
pick two. To get it good and cheap it took a long time. In my case
we paid for more studio time so it wasn't even much cheaper.

I played in youth orchestras until I graduated from high school. And I can almost garuntee you could get one for free. However you will hit a few bumps. For one, most high school orchestras are Strings only, being comprised of 1st and 2nd violins, violas, cello, and bass. You will not have the brass woodwinds or percussion. Those will be found in the marching band. So here would be the course I recommend.

You need to get with the directors of both the marching band and the orchestra BEFORE the school year starts. This way the orchestra conductor can assimilate your music into their repertoire. If the music is technical enough they can use it for competition. And most have a concert or two through out the year. They could use it there. The marching band is a whole different beast. You wont get a thing out of them until after football season. I think, i can only guess cause I never played in marching band. But once you have an agreement with the director of the marching band, after football season, he can ask for volunteers, and you will get them. Every year when I was in high school we would form a true orchestra and would play in a musical for the theatre department. And you will not need the whole marching band. You should only need two or three of each instrument depending on the size of the string section. And bam there's your orchestra. As to, where to record?? Thats your problem. :)

Couple quick points about selecting the school: Pick a school that has a reputation in both orchestar and marching band. The kids will take more pride in their reputation, and will actually show up to voluntary practices. And make sure you get your releases/permission forms in order. You would probably want to have a sit down with the parents as well. I know it sounds like la lot of trouble but FREE generally is. :)