I am finished every scene of my first short, and have the final fight scene left. I have to find a replacement actor, hopefully soon, so the others don't have to keep waiting. But since it's been difficult I want to do everything right for this last scene, which will be the most difficult to shoot. Have never done any fight choreography before or anything and all I have to rely on is my instincts of how to do it.

So I am using the canon T2i which has the rolling shutter jello effect problem. I want this flaw to come off as stylistic and don't want it to ruin the whole short. I can't shoot the fight scene with the cam on a tripod, which greatly lessens the rolling shutter it seems. The problem with shooting a fight on a still camera is that the actors go out of frame to much, so the camera must constantly be movie with them in almost every take. So I will shoot it on a steadicam, but the question is, will the rolling shutter on a steadicam ruin it?

Another thing is the fight scene itself. All I have are my instincts on how to shoot it at what angles, and how to edit it to look much more real. Any tips on that? Thanks. I have already watched some tutorials on that as well, which helped somewhat. And of course we will have to rehearse before just jumping in and shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWwlxaqvFtc
Film Riot did a great tutorial on this. Move the camera but not insane amounts. Use quick cuts, trick the audience to believing they saw something that didn't happen with sound effects and creative editing. Cut out frames. The tutorial covers it well

Thanks I already watched one. I don't want to use quick cutting though, I hate it. Too many fights nowadays are too quick cut and it becomes less dramatic and brutal, so I don't want to do what Hollywood has been doing with quick cutting for past few years.

I saw the Film Riot fight scene tutorial. It in general is great and I'm glad such a big channel got to expose many indie film makers to this kind of tutorial. There was a fight scene tutorial posted on indietalk actually that was very good.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ShahuyenProductions Take a look at their channel, it's dedicated to how to choreograph and shoot fight scenes. Best tutorials on youtube by far.

Also I have to say, as proud as he was to shoot and direct it, the Film Riot final fight scene wasn't that great and even their most loyal fans mentioned it a few times. The choreography itself is "ok" but the camera shakes too much and overall the cinematography could have better. (But I think he just wanted to write/direct/shoot it himself.) The fight generally had too many wide / medium shots and not enough tight close ups. If you shake the camera so much, and you're shooting a wide or medium shot, it just looks like an earthquake. But you can get away with shaking the camera on close ups with lots of physical movement.

Harmonica if you don't want to do quick cuts (I'm guessing you mean the sterotypical quick cuts with camera shake that we tend to see in many mainstream movie or tv fight scenes?) then don't. That's your creative preference and Im with you on that. But do add camera "movement." It's almost a must and well that's why you said you're using steadicam. You can "confuse" the audience the right way with added camera movement, adding impact to the fight. But you don't want to make them barf by choosing to shake it when very little is happening. Also, I know with the Film Riot fight he wanted to keep the fight looking realistic, but there wasn't much that stood out about it. As you already know and have probably been thinking about, the final fight should be memorable and also mean something. It doesnt have to have spin kicks or explosions. But something in the choreography that they will remember or matches with who the characters are.

How long do you have until you shoot the final fight? If you have the time maybe you can teach the choreography to some friends and do a practice shoot. Or atleast on the tricky parts. If you are worried about the rolling shutter, the test runs would really be useful as well.

Two of the actors in the fight dropped out actually so I had to find two new ones. I think I have found an acceptable 2, and going to set a rehearsal date for next week or the week after sometime, for when they can. There are four actors in the fight total. I personally don't have much of a problem with the rolling shutter, it's just I want to make it as good as can be. And yes I will move the camera.

You have a golden opportunity to get stunt people to do your fight scene for you. Look for martial artists or stunt guys instead of actors. Also, you need to get as many different angles as possible for a fight scene when shooting. Front, reverse, overview shots, and some close-ups. But, for the most part, shoot action wide.

Good luck!

Yep I and a friend of mine keep on storyboarding it till we can find another actor, and a shoot date. I guess I could put up an add for a stuntman on craigslist or something. The actors who have been in previous scenes though will still have to be in it, unless I can get stuntmen for them too, that look alike enough.

Have you ever heard of the term, "Stunt double?"

The stunt man should dress identical to the actor and wear a wig, if necessary to look like the actor. Be care of the angles as you edit, so it won't be obvious.

I edited in a stunt dummy for an actor in an identical costume. Since the costumes are skin-tight and everyone has a unique body shape, I obscured the stunt dummy in post with controlled motion blurs just on the stunt dummy as he is picked up and thrown away by an Amazon cyborg. I obscurred the dummy frame by frame and kept the cyborg in sharp focus in the same frame.

Yeah it's just cause of the low budget I can't get the wigs and make up and all that to look the enough the same as the actors. I guess I could see but there are two potential problems. I might not be able to get stuntmen to work for a very low price. And I might not be able to get stuntdouble disguises anytime soon.

You don't need pro stuntmen for this short buddy. You can shoot a fight scene with very little physical contact. Get guys who are willing and know how to take a fall at ground level (not of the top of a building) and have them sign a waiver. We've used gymnasts, a parkour team and martial artists all who were thrilled to be a part of a production.

Actual stunt doubles are a ways away still and that's ok. Unless you have a really stinking good actor or a really expensive one in a situation that's dangerous (and you shouldn't) then you're fine without.

Stunts that require major expertise require for real stunt coordinators, safety equipment and insurance. There's a reason why they say "do not try this at home", a typical movie fistfight isn't one of them.

Yeah it's just cause of the low budget I can't get the wigs and make up and all that to look the enough the same as the actors. I guess I could see but there are two potential problems. I might not be able to get stuntmen to work for a very low price. And I might not be able to get stuntdouble disguises anytime soon.

There are a lot of martial artists who are unknown and don't mind working for free to get into a film just forr the experience. Ask for martial artists. They know how to fall without getting hurt, how to throw punches and kicks, and how to do flips and spins to make your fight look really cool for film.

I was afraid of the same exact things when I first started using DSLRs.

Here are two tests I did with the canon 5D and panasonic GH1 years ago:

http://vimeo.com/7092486 -- 5D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB-Kuz8buDg - GH1

In the end, I came to this conclusion: I'm not gonna worry about rolling shutter effects, because it stifles creativity.

Again, these are JUST tests (literally test footage) so take them as they are. I also love to shoot handheld, so none of this is on a tripod.

I found one martial artist, who may be interested, and will look for another. I feel guilty making them sign a waiver though, but if it is a good idea...

You can also use stuntdoubles when the lights/power get switched off or when the only light is behind the actors so you only have the dark shapes of the actors.

(Just a thought...)

The key is to match the clothing and hair. You can pull the camera back so viewers won't connect that you are using stunt doubles. A Hollywood stunt coordinator told me the angles are important so viewers don't see the faces clearly. Distant shots are a good bet too.

True but most the fight I have planned is done on a narrow staircase, so the shots will be tight probably.

The camera can be at the bottome of the stairs, if the actors are on top. And, on top when the actors are on the bottom.

I thought of that but then it's far away and narrow and the camera is still, instead of panning with the actors. Me and my friend are storyboarding it, but if we can get a stuntman perhaps it should be storyboarded differently. One of the actors offered to do her own fighting but I don't want to her get hurt either. But first of all, there aren't many stuntmen if not any, around where I live. I'll keep looking though, but probably shouldn't want to delay the actors I already have for too long.

Also, use across the room to encompass the whole staircase. That is a great shot, if you want to roll a stunt dummy down the stairs dressed up as one of the characters.

Sure thanks. That's good advice if I can find dummies. Think I should I keep delaying it till I find extra stuntmen and dummies. I just need a replacement actor right now for one of them but if I need more I can maybe delay it more.

what sort of short film are you making that requires a freaking STUNT doubles??? holy crap, man

Well it has a fight scene in the climax, and originally I intended on directing and editing to propel the realism, with the actors, and not originally intending to use stunt doubles.

You don't need to use stunt doubles. Work with what you have access to man. You don't need death-defying stunts for a good fight. You don't need triple backflips or falling down stairs. It's one of those things you write/direct around. Postponing committed people to find doubles that you shouldn't be using anyway. The reason being, if it's too dangerous of a stunt for an actor, you better have insurance and a for real, trained stunt coordinator with all proper safety equipment. It's not a smart no-budget, first time director thing to do.

For sure. I want the fall down the stairs, but that's as defying as it gets.

Got any dragons in your fight scene??? No!?! Get some.

Shoot when you feel you are ready.

I believe Video Mongrul has a tutorial video on youtube on how to make a dirt cheap stunt dummy. You can get old clothing for cheap from the Salvation Army and a roll of duck tape and make a stunt dummy to roll down the stairs.

For sure. I want the fall down the stairs, but that's as defying as it gets.

In the old days they'd shoot the actor going really, really slow -like turtle slow- faking a tumble down the stairs and speed it up 10x (or more, whatever looks real) in post.

Actually, they were seriously under taking taking a frame or two a second, but the way you'd do it is to record a normally video and digitally speed it up. there's a shot in "McLintock" with John Wayne and his on screen ex wife doing this technique. I remember it looking pretty good.

Try it yourself on a short 4 step staircase. Lock the camera off on a tripod and go to town. See if you like the footage and if it's something you'd feel comfortable asking an actor to do.

Alternatively, showing the person's head duck out of frame, cutting to a reaction of the person who pushed or a bystander and hearing a sack of potatoes or two fall down the stairs then cutting to shot of the poor victim sliding down the last stair onto the carpet would be a really effective (and safe) way of shooting it. Still suspenseful, add good music and sounds and you'll be good to go.

There's no way I'd ask someone to take a real fall down stairs for a movie. Plenty have died or ended up paralyzed or dead because of that. Only if an experienced stunt coordinator said it was ok and brought in his gear and his expert stuntman would I consider it. It's like asking someone to get hit by a car.

Well it has a fight scene in the climax, and originally I intended on directing and editing to propel the realism, with the actors, and not originally intending to use stunt doubles.

your major climax of the movie should be the climax of the story, not people are getting into the fight, and falling down the stairs...
I would never want to watch a movie where your climax is about two dudes getting into a fight ...which WILL be poorly performed, and edited because you're a first time director with NO experience

Do the smart thing. Its OK to go weird and "let me try this awesome shot" by yourself by climbing a tall ladder, while balancing the camera....but when its other people's health risk gets involved, especially volunteers, because of your stubbornness - that's just plain STUPID.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but i do take safety extremely seriously.




and no, Bob Joe from your local martial art school of wanna-be-ninjitsu with $20 black belt is NOT a qualified fight instructor or stunt coordinator.

yeah. Well the fight has to do with the plot. It's not long but I figure a short fight and fall down the stairs is worth it, to generate suspense. I mean how exciting would most movies in the thriller genre really be, if the good guy came towards the bad guy with a gun pointed at him, bad guy goes quietly and that's the end of the movie. That ending is rarely used cause it's just not that tense. So I have to have something.