For my first real short film, I don't have a real pro crew, so I use my friends to step in. Sometimes they get a little overcreative though. My one friend does things with the camera, that she shouldn't. Such as zooming, but that can cause change in exposure while shooting. Or the camera will shake too much in the takes. If I tell her that we should redo it she will sometimes get defensive saying I worry to much, and that sometimes things like exposure changing and shaky cam, can come off as stylistic. The mic is also shown in some takes, and the no one behind the camera said anything. Maybe it's just not noticeable on the DSLR screen. So now I will have to do some photoshopping.

Sometimes the friends listening in on the sound, will not tell me if they hear anything unwanted either, and by the time I play it back, and find out, it's too late and we have to redub with the actors now. Should I just get bossier like some say on here, to try to get them to not get overzealous with it? They are working for food only, so I don't want to drive anyone either. But how do I get them to do what I say, and not change any setting, and actually monitor what's being recorded?

All you can really do I guess is just ask them nicely. If there's something that you think needs to be redone, redo it. Do this enough times and they're gonna get practice, and also want to do it right the first time so that they don't have to do it over and over.

The thing is that you're not working with a pro crew, or from what it sound like, a crew that even wants to be making movies in the same way that you do. It seems like you want to make the best movie that you can, where as they just want to have fun making a movie.

This isn't entirely your place though as a director, or are you the producer as well?

All you can really do I guess is just ask them nicely. If there's something that you think needs to be redone, redo it. Do this enough times and they're gonna get practice, and also want to do it right the first time so that they don't have to do it over and over.

The thing is that you're not working with a pro crew, or from what it sound like, a crew that even wants to be making movies in the same way that you do. It seems like you want to make the best movie that you can, where as they just want to have fun making a movie.

This isn't entirely your place though as a director, or are you the producer as well?

The thing is though I don't realize this till it's too late. I only have the locations for a limited amount of time, and I can't go over to the camera, and play back, every take to check it over. I just have to do a bunch from the storyboards, and get it all done first. Then afterwords, there's not enough time left. I will have to do a lot of work in post, not knowing if I can fix everything, cause I haven't done much post work so far.

Yes I am the producer as well. And yeah, I think they are just having too much fun, and I'll talk to them about it.

NOBODY should be second guessing you in that manner in these decisions. If you've someone else who can run the camera, FIRE the current person. Currently she's useless. All her errors are yours to live with forever.

Good luck.

Well I have to look for a new person first who can do a better job than her first, which is too late during production now. She is better with lighting than others I know, which is cannot be fixed so much in post, compared to some of the other errors.

they do mistake once - talk to them nicely and clear what YOU want. If the do it again-get rid of them. Not yelling and cussing but nicely..Line "My other friend want to try it out" will put you in a safe zone.

Maybe it would be a good idea to take over one of the problem roles yourself?

Well she does a better job still compared to anyone else I know.

Tell her to stop F-ing with the camera. No zooms, No shakey effects and other "stylistic" stuff. And especially, no second guessing your decisions.

Yeah I already told her that. But I wish she had asked before, instead of just deciding that doing things like that was okay. I hope she won't do it again, and I'll keep an eye on her. I'm acting in the film too, so it's hard to pay attention to everything the crew does. When I am not required to be on screen, then I can watch the monitor. I think the ISO was also changed at some point too. So can I tone down the aperture change, and ISO change through coloring it differently in post, and make the takes in a scene, all look at the same level of brightness through color?

As the director you should be watching the monitor/viewfinder as well. When you don't have an external monitor it's a little harder, but stand over the camera op's shoulder.

Remember, you're not directing how it looks live to your eyes, but rather how it looks on screen.

As far as leadership, you'll come into it with practice. Letting everyone know at the top of the shoot that "I have a specific vision in mind and a lot of shots to pull off for it in a tight schedule" helps later asking the volunteer camera op not to zoom, etc.

These are all normal things every director has to learn to do, usually only by experience. That's why most people recommend very short films to start off with, 1-3 minutes or something. That get's you the experience and if it's not award-winning caliber that's ok. It's only a minute long short. Your next minute long short will be better.

As far as people being in the shot, are you at least doing a dry run of the scene so your camera person can scope for just that? Once you're rolling, it's enough of a challenge to keep everything in focus and framed properly. You just don't see it many times until after.

Let me guess, a boom operator with a one size fits all boom is wondering all over the place from take to take?

I tell them how I want it shot and what angles, and we got a storyboard. I also check the camera and audio recorder settings beforehand. But you think that changing the exposure during the shoot is obvious, which is why I didn't think to mention it. I mean these friends, have seen movies before, and that's just not accepted.

Well I will have a talk and try not to be too bossy. But if they don't listen they are going to ruin this short! Either that or I will fix it all in post hopefully.

If you think it's bad with friends, try doing it with film students. "I'm a P.A., but I'm really a director."

That's the difference between amateur and pro. You can't really discount these people for newbie mistakes when it's their first day (or close to it) running equipment. You've spent months on these boards and reading articles and what not, they haven't. They may not know film 101 stuff because they haven't had the film 101 course.

Well maybe next time but it's too late to find anyone now. I'll try again, and see if one can make it before the next shoot. I already tried to get a DP student before, and then another, but they both backed out. Friends are more reliable to stay committed, which is the upside, than students. I can try again for my next one, but will also have to have my friends on standby, just in case.

And I know they haven't done near as much research as I have, but I what I need is for them to ask before doing something, or just leave the settings as is. For some reason they don't understand that all the time. I know I can't blame them for making mistakes, but it seems that by choosing to fiddle, without asking, they are making them deliberately.

If you think it's bad with friends, try doing it with film students. "I'm a P.A., but I'm really a director."

LOL! Best call!

If this girl is being such a hassle, if you can't get a new camera op and you know what you want. Do the role yourself. Hey it mightn't look as good as someone who knows about lighting, but you won't have to deal with the rubbish quality.

Also, YOU are in charge and you only. You have the final say. If you don't like it. Do it again. But if you don't want to be mean and if she still wants to do her zoom thing and be all pretentious, let her. But do another take without it.

NOBODY should be second guessing you in that manner in these decisions. If you've someone else who can run the camera, FIRE the current person. Currently she's useless. All her errors are yours to live with forever.

Good luck.

exactly!! Like i say before i film to all my crew "What happens on set stays on set" there will always frustration and friction. your friends should stay in there department no one else's! Other wise i call them a DCF department crossing feen!

Also keep in mind that this is all part of a team building process.
You're essentially interviewing people for future gigs.
It's unlikely most will stick with you project after project any more than when any employer posts a position available, crack heads come out of the woodwork, few will be invited for an interview, even fewer will get the position and often many of those quit within a few days or weeks.
Same thing.

You're developing your core group.
It'll take a few projects to weed 'em out.
You'll likely meet others in your area after you have a product or two to show around.
You'll help them out. They'll help you out.
It's reciprocal.

Right now the biggest carrot you have to waggle in front of your donkeys is simply being invited back for the next project.
If that doesn't motivate people then you don't want them.
It's dating.

Okay. Well I will have the sit down and talk about it and see if that helps. So can I fix these exposure changes in post then? I was told the Adobe package comes with a color program that should fix it.

If you think it's bad with friends, try doing it with film students. "I'm a P.A., but I'm really a director."

Classic!

With the exception of a film student working for free for an inexperienced director. It better be a short film or else a felony is in the making. :lol:

So can I fix these exposure changes in post then? I was told the Adobe package comes with a color program that should fix it.

Ehhhh, yes it's technically possible, but seeing as you're new I'd say skip it and chalk it up to experience. Not the easiest fix. Keyframing the adjustments shouldn't be too hard, but exactly matching the frame before it as it stops up or down will need a lot of patience and a trained eye. It's not just "brightness".

Production Premium CS5.5 comes with After Effects. After Effects is the "take any type of video in, do anything you want to it, spit it out however you want" program. It's awesome software, but has a learning curve.

Edit: Actually I take that back. As your aperture is changing the DOF is changing, so it's much harder because you'll have to rotoscope objects and add blur to match the DOF in whatever segment has the most shallow. A subtle change, but if you want exact then....

Yes for sure I will have to learn it. I might be able to find an editor familiar more with it, once the editing comes.

Yes for sure I will have to learn it. I might be able to find an editor familiar more with it, once the editing comes.

THAT won't be free and plan on getting yelled at. ;)

Directors make decisions. Directors are opinionated. Good directors listen to input. But all directors make decisions (and those directions are to be followed).

Brutal honesty -- I don't think you've got it in you. You ask way too many questions, stuff that could be answered in mere seconds by simply doing a google search. You show absolutely no confidence in what you do.

And for the ultra-low-budget indie scene, you really need to project a great deal of confidence to succeed. I imagine that is also probably true at the real-budget level.

Grow a pair. Or quit.

I think you'll just have to fire them. This is not a charity you're running. A friend is replaceable. You can always find a new one.



Just Kidding.


But remember your friends are donating their time for your thing. Like wiser people have said: this is team building, start with short shorts, you generally get further with honey than with vinegar. Maybe you'll just have to be tenacious. Ask for retakes until they get tired of trying to do their own thing, just want to give you what you're after, and they start calling you David Fincher.

Just kidding.

About the nickname calling.

P.S. I'm sure it was Alcove Audio who mentioned in a recent post that it's much better to get what you want, get it right in the first place in production, rather than just hoping it can be fixed in post. He was talking about audio, but I'm sure it's true for everthing else too. Not to knock what magic can be done in post though.

Also, you should do everything like a Boss.

NisCkxU544c

Pffffffffffffff!! :lol: SNL is awesome.

"Directors make decisions. Directors are opinionated. Good directors listen to input. But all directors make decisions (and those directions are to be followed)."

Yep, I'm going to respectfully listen to your input (if it isn't offered too often and it comes through the chain of command on set). Then I'm going to do what I think is right no matter what anybody else thinks about it. Once I say 'This is how we are going to do it", then that's how we do it. If you don't like it, then I guess you know where you parked your car.

well, good advice mostly..

Remember though, that when you first started posting, you were afraid you couldn't get ANY HELP! So your already ahead!

This is what the extensive preproduction is all about. You lay down exactly what you want to do and how you want to get it done. Your department heads inform you of the possible technical and budget problems, and, if they prove to be an obstacle, you discuss the options with them. During this process they also make artistic suggestions that you can approve or not as you see fit. This is when the shooting schedule is set in stone, and there should be no deviations without very good cause.

Your word is law. You direct people to do exactly what you want. If they cannot accept their role as working for a director and doing precisely what the director wants them to do, even in an unpaid situation, they should not be in the business.

What you have described are a few of the myriad reasons why so many here on IndieTalk have been telling you that your first couple of projects will suck, especially if you are working without a budget. You find the folks you want to work with on a consistent basis and weed out the anal sphincters. However, this is when you must prove your leadership ability and that you have a viable and cohesive creative vision that makes all of their efforts worth their time expenditure.

P.S. I'm sure it was Alcove Audio who mentioned in a recent post that it's much better to get what you want, get it right in the first place in production, rather than just hoping it can be fixed in post. He was talking about audio, but I'm sure it's true for everthing else too. Not to knock what magic can be done in post though.

It comes down to the difference between polishing a diamond and polishing a turd.

Show them the problem footage as well, so they know what not to do and why its bad. If you teach them, you'll get the results you want every time -- because they've learned from you.

Thanks, I already showed them. We did another scene today, after before that I gave them the talk. No one behind the camera moved the aperture or anything without my permission. The camera friend is also acting so other actors have to take her spot, when she's on screen. But with the constant sunlight change I had to change the aperture a few times, to try to make the shots match up continuously.

I'm worried that there is a section of dark shots in the middle, possibly with red grain, cause I didn't catch the sun change, till near the end of the shoot, and by that time it was too late to go back and reshoot, with the location schedule and all. We'll see. Can red grain be moved with After Effects, even if you make the colors brighter?

Can red grain be moved with After Effects, even if you make the colors brighter?

Don't worry about it right now. Finish the shoot.

have to agree with alcove audio.....his is sage advice.

you have to remember real filmaking is a dictatorship not a democracy.

the director is in charge, the dop is his second in command
but both bow to the power of the first assistant director

the director and dop should have worked out the look and shot list
in pre production.

the first ad creates the schedule and makes sure everybody sticks to it including the director and dop.

on the shoot all the crew should bow to these three.

as the director your word is law unless the dept heads have a technical issue with what you need to achieve.

the crew have no right to make suggestions to the director unless
specifically asked (dont speak unless spoken to)

if they need to vent they should go to the first ad

grips and gaffers go to the dop. everybody else goes to the first ad

you need to build a chain of command from the first day. a professional crew will know all this.

i think you need a dop who is dedicated to just operating the camera and lighting. this is a fulltime job and needs to be done without distractions. as you have found out distractions cause problems.

i have gaffered on 8 major features and hundreds of short films
and on any of those if crew had made unasked for suggestions to the director he would have been fired.

there is a reason for this strict protocol.....if everyone has a say nothing gets done but talk...... thats why pre prod meetings go so long.

cheers
ian

"You need to build a chain of command from the first day. a professional crew will know all this."

QFT

Okay thanks. Well the next shoot is in about a week. Any advice on how to get everyone to show up? I'm not use to being much of a 'dictator' but willing to learn.

Feed your crew, and dont be a d##k.

ps. Please dont ask what food to bring.

I'm not use to being much of a 'dictator' but willing to learn.

You're not a dictator, you're a commander leading your "troops" into "battle." Your mission is to shoot a film. You're fighting a miniscule budget and very tight scheduling.

Feed your crew, and dont be a d##k.

ps. Please dont ask what food to bring.

I thought it was a good thing to ask, cause then everyone can decide what they want, and we can all come to an agreement, instead of me bringing something that they all do not like as much.

I thought it was a good thing to ask, cause then everyone can decide what they want, and we can all come to an agreement, instead of me bringing something that they all do not like as much.



i mean dont ask HERE what food to bring. definitely ask your crew what they d prefer for dinner and if anyone has any allergies on food. killing two birds with one stone : they see that you care about them, and they ll be well fed.

sorry for the confusion

you can be a fair dictator you dont have to be nasty.
you dont have to be unpleasant to your crew to motivate them.

on the shoot before you roll the camera when everybody is organised
give a short speech telling them how proud you are to have them there, what you want to achieve for the day, how you plan to do it
and any safety concerns if any, where the exits are, and if anybody has any concerns to approach you or the 1st ad.
set the ground rules at the start, you can do this in a civilised manner. but stress that the director is in charge...nicely
this is where you show them you are in charge and they will know what they have to achieve for the day.

motivate them with your vision.
make sure you have snacks and drinks available, low blood sugar
can slow things down when you are working hard.
give them a decent lunch......
you would be suprised how good food and snacks can motivate people.

snacks can be lollies, m+m's, chips, muesli bars, noodles, more lollies, mars bars, cut up fruit, oranges,apples bananas,
and bottles of chilled water, COFFEE, tea etc.
it doesnt cost much but is easy to grab and snack on while working.

hey gonzo what does qft mean, bearing in mind i was born before computers were invented.......................................

cheers
ian

QFT = Quoted for Truth

I was too Darty. Exciting day at my high school when the math club got a Tandy TRS-80. The only computer in the school.

We had a TRS-80 in the home, then a Coco I and a Coco II... good days... sorry, off topic.

you can be a fair dictator you dont have to be nasty.
you dont have to be unpleasant to your crew to motivate them.

on the shoot before you roll the camera when everybody is organised
give a short speech telling them how proud you are to have them there, what you want to achieve for the day, how you plan to do it
and any safety concerns if any, where the exits are, and if anybody has any concerns to approach you or the 1st ad.
set the ground rules at the start, you can do this in a civilised manner. but stress that the director is in charge...nicely
this is where you show them you are in charge and they will know what they have to achieve for the day.

motivate them with your vision.
make sure you have snacks and drinks available, low blood sugar
can slow things down when you are working hard.
give them a decent lunch......
you would be suprised how good food and snacks can motivate people.

snacks can be lollies, m+m's, chips, muesli bars, noodles, more lollies, mars bars, cut up fruit, oranges,apples bananas,
and bottles of chilled water, COFFEE, tea etc.
it doesnt cost much but is easy to grab and snack on while working.

hey gonzo what does qft mean, bearing in mind i was born before computers were invented.......................................

cheers
ian

Oh okay. I never brought snacks but always ordered plenty of food for everyone, about 3-4 hours into the shoot. But some candy too is do-able.

I tell them how I want it shot and what angles, and we got a storyboard. I also check the camera and audio recorder settings beforehand. But you think that changing the exposure during the shoot is obvious, which is why I didn't think to mention it. I mean these friends, have seen movies before, and that's just not accepted.

Well I will have a talk and try not to be too bossy. But if they don't listen they are going to ruin this short! Either that or I will fix it all in post hopefully.

I'm late to the thread as usual, but since no one else mentioned it I thought I'd chime in on the text I put in bold above:

In your original post you mentioned that the exposure changes occurred during a zoom, welcome to the unintended side-effects of using "less expensive" (eschewing the word cheap here) zoom lenses, which do not have a constant aperture rating throughout their focal length range.

Say your lens is described as being "f3.5-5.6" or something similar, this means that the max aperture possible on the lens changes as focal length changes (zoom). Your DP should be aware of this fact and should be able to determine how much range you have on the lens before the max aperture value starts to change.

For example, I recently rented a 14-150 Olympus m4/3 lens (which I ended up disliking very much) that was f4-5.6. (it was for stills) At the extreme ends of the lens (14-20ish and 100-150 or so) it started to close down to the 5.6 rating. In between it would stay at a 4. The numbers are for example only. The point is that if you are absolutely married to using a zoom in one or more of your shots, there should be a range on the lens where it won't change mid-zoom. Usually in the middle of the available range somewhere. On some zooms they only go slower at one end or the other, but not both. The best (most expensive) ones are constant, meaning they will hold their fastest aperture throughout the zoom range.

Also, when executing a zoom ALWAYS set your focus at the longest end of the zoom, where it is the most critical, your DP should know this as well.

As far as her getting defensive and telling you that you worry too much - that's not acceptable behavior for a DP. She should be MORE concerned about the quality of each and every shot than you are because it is her job.

Finally, a note on pulling exposure: I've done some of these, but never for "artistic" reasons. Exposure pulls, in my admittedly humble experience, are reserved when some kind of camera move necessitates opening or closing the lens because of changes in lighting across the move. Example:

A drug dealer has a trailer hidden in a forest and is inside counting his money on a sunny day. The director wants to pan down from the sunlight in the trees and reveal the dealer inside the trailer. You need a 2.8 to get a good exposure on the trailer interior, and you need an 5.6-8 split to expose the sunny trees to your liking. (again numbers are for illustration only, not actual exposure values which would vary depending on a number of factors) During the pan you gently pull the exposure with the move, hopefully right around the moment the wall of the trailer is passing frame (where the pull can be best hidden).

The fun part for a 1AC is when you're pulling focus and aperture at the same time. ;)

Edit:

Stop saying "Fix It in Post." That phrase is a joke for a reason. Be firm, but diplomatic. If necessary, "Grow a Pair" (as CF suggested) and fire the ones who aren't working out. Confidence will come with experience, and these things will come easier if you stick with it.

Okay thanks, those are some good tips!

I haven't read all of it, but I have two suggestions:

- the friend handling the sound was probably listening to what you wanted to hear and forget to listen to the things you don't want to hear. Next time tell them to listen for backgroundnoise. (I've had a similair experience with one of my best friends. He was just helping me out, but he was not really into it and not experienced as all.)

- only what the lens can see is real when it comes to directing.
Acting can look great from any angle, but as a director you need to see what happens on the screen. When I'm directing, I'm watching a screen. Sometimes I'm not even facing the crew or in the same room: I watch the screen to see if the shot is any good.
Find a way the monitor the camera. If you are shooting an interior scene, you can even use a tv (just make sure it doesn't pollute your lighting.

Remember: your friends are there to help you out, but they are probably even less experienced than you are. Plus, as friends you tread each others as equals. On set there needs to be hierarchy.