Hi guys,

To wrap up a long story short:

I'm a first time feature film Director. I've written, produced, cast and am directing the film. Anyway, I hired a DP who has worked hard as we were understaffed to begin with. 10 days into a 20 day shoot he's called me up and basically said 'I've picked the shots, I want to be credited as Director'. I responded to the likes of 'are you mad? I've spent the best part of two years putting the locations, actors, script, absolutely everything together and even though you're much more experienced and technically savvy that I am, this is my film'. He quickly pointed out that AS WE SIGNED NO CONTRACT THE FOOTAGE IS LEGALLY HIS!

So, am I right in thinking he could actually just swing round and say 'You know what, this is my film, I'm taking it'.

Also, I've paid him 75% of his fee directly to his bank without invoice.

Total panic right now!

You may need him to sign off on the footage, as he was responsible for the look of it - artistic vision. I know my rep asks for DP releases, if they are involved.

But what if he refuses? That's my point, he has ownership of my film at the moment and could simply just walk away and say it's his and he directed it!

Hi guys,

To wrap up a long story short:

I'm a first time feature film Director. I've written, produced, cast and am directing the film. Anyway, I hired a DP who has worked hard as we were understaffed to begin with. 10 days into a 20 day shoot he's called me up and basically said 'I've picked the shots, I want to be credited as Director'. I responded to the likes of 'are you mad? I've spent the best part of two years putting the locations, actors, script, absolutely everything together and even though you're much more experienced and technically savvy that I am, this is my film'. He quickly pointed out that AS WE SIGNED NO CONTRACT THE FOOTAGE IS LEGALLY HIS!

So, am I right in thinking he could actually just swing round and say 'You know what, this is my film, I'm taking it'.

Also, I've paid him 75% of his fee directly to his bank without invoice.

Total panic right now!

Without getting into your legal and banking issues, it sounds like you've acted more as a producer in actuality. Take the hit, credit him as director and finish the project with a lesson learned. Yes, his ego is threatening your production, but don't let yours be the final death blow. Written and produced by is not bad credit. An uncompleted project with your name on it may haunt you with the associated gossip.

I'm a first time feature film Director. I've written, produced, cast and am directing the film. Anyway, I hired a DP who has worked hard as we were understaffed to begin with. 10 days into a 20 day shoot he's called me up and basically said 'I've picked the shots, I want to be credited as Director'. I responded to the likes of 'are you mad? I've spent the best part of two years putting the locations, actors, script, absolutely everything together and even though you're much more experienced and technically savvy that I am, this is my film'. He quickly pointed out that AS WE SIGNED NO CONTRACT THE FOOTAGE IS LEGALLY HIS!

So, am I right in thinking he could actually just swing round and say 'You know what, this is my film, I'm taking it'.

Also, I've paid him 75% of his fee directly to his bank without invoice.
Who is financing this movie?
Is there a written contract? You said "as you signed NO contract"??? I'm not sure what you mean.
What was the original agreement?
I can tell you that it is not uncommon for the DP to suggest lots of shots. But the director is still the director. Who yells "action" and "cut"? Who has creative control of the actors? These are the kinds of things a director does.
If I were you I'd say whatever you gotta say to make him honor his promise to complete his work. Then when it's all done and shot, change your tune. He will make a big stink, but in law the only thing that matters is what was the ORIGINAL agreement. You can't suddenly give him the director credit in consideration for nothing. You can document those payments to him can't you? Do you have a PayPal receipt? That's legal consideration that demonstrates that a work for hire situation was in place.
In the future always get releases for EVERYONE including all crew. The release should transfer copyrights to you because a movie is a joint creative work made by the art department, director, DP, actors, editor, musicians, etc. All of these people contribute "art" to look and sound of the movie.

The thing is it's not like I haven't directed it! I've rehearsed with these actors numerous times before the shoot, I've told the DP what shots I'd like. I've blocked scenes. He has done more than he should have as we had a small crew and he's very experienced but turning round 3/4 into the shoot and say 'I want this to be my film' seems morally wrong yet legally possible?

Wow, sounds like an insecure DP who thinks he needs a director credit for people to recognize his work. Good luck.

Who is financing this movie?
Is there a written contract? You said "as you signed NO contract"??? I'm not sure what you mean.
What was the original agreement?
I can tell you that it is not uncommon for the DP to suggest lots of shots. But the director is still the director. Who yells "action" and "cut"? Who has creative control of the actors? These are the kinds of things a director does.
If I were you I'd say whatever you gotta say to make him honor his promise to complete his work. Then when it's all done and shot, change your tune. He will make a big stink, but in law the only thing that matters is what was the ORIGINAL agreement. You can't suddenly give him the director credit in consideration for nothing. You can document those payments to him can't you? Do you have a PayPal receipt? That's legal consideration that demonstrates that a work for hire situation was in place.
In the future always get releases for EVERYONE including all crew. The release should transfer copyrights to you because a movie is a joint creative work made by the art department, director, DP, actors, editor, musicians, etc. All of these people contribute "art" to look and sound of the movie.

To answer your questions:

I'm financing it, there was no written contract, I call action and cut, I transferred money into his account. In theory as I wrote the entire screenplay I'd imagine he couldn't use the footage as that's copyrighted on creation in the UK but he could in theory say 'I won't release this unless you say I'm Director or X,Y,X'.

I'm looking up some info... So far, I can't find an "Intellectual Property" release for Director of Photography, in the U.S. In some countries, like Mexico, the DP has the intellectual property right and you need to get that release. However, I don't know that you do. In the U.S. you are supposed to sign what is called a Deal Memo, which outlines the duties, hours, pay of the DP.

At any rate, I would do as suggested above and just be the bigger man in this situation - give him the director credit and you take the writer/producer credit. Perhaps, when he sees you doing something for the greater good of the project, he'll change his mind.

He quickly pointed out that AS WE SIGNED NO CONTRACT THE FOOTAGE IS LEGALLY HIS!

As soon as the sun comes up, find a local entertainment attorney. You need one.

I'd imagine he couldn't use the footage as that's copyrighted on creation in the UK but he could in theory say 'I won't release this unless you say I'm Director or X,Y,X'.
I am still confused as to whether or not there is a contract, what it says and who has possession of the footage. ???

Just let him think your going to give him director credit untill its all finished then once you have the footage in your hand tell him to :censored: off. :lol:

To answer your question, yes.

I'm sorry this had to happen to you but its a good example of why we a) get a release from every crew member indicating its YOUR film before one single frame is shot, and b) take the tapes home with you every night.

As soon as the sun comes up, find a local entertainment attorney. You need one.

Or this!!! If this is a bad guy, perhaps he shouldn't get his way. Either way, I feel for you. Good luck.

Just let him think your going to give him director credit untill its all finished then once you have the footage in your hand tell him to :censored: off. :lol:


This is a good idea.

If you can't pull this off, you could also somehow get a hold of the tapes and FIRE the DP and with the remaining 25% you've left, hire another DP and hope to salvage something out of this.

Classic example of why you get paperwork signed before shooting any footage.

he may have the rights to the footage itself, but does not have ownership of the script it was based on.

So he cant do anything with your film.

What he can do is throw a huge fit and gum up the works.

Hire an html programmer, theyre plentiful. Tell them to create an SEO treatment of the guys name, they'll know what that means. Fan out an array of no more than 7 cheap subsites. On each page just tell your true story in a one page format.

For a few grand, what this will accomplish is to flood the first page of google searches of his name. Each site listed on that page will be a link to your story of how he tried to hold your film hostage and manipulate you via threats.

Now he is unhirable worldwide.

You have the right to do this legally as long as you are telling the absolute truth.

You can then offer to allow the page to expire in 6 months if he accepts proper credit.

Before taking this rather aggressive route, consider carefully the other guys side of the story.

Technically, in the business world, you are at fault here. Contracts are mandatory in all situations. I'm sure the reason for this is incredibly clear on this day. If you left unsaid that you planned on accepting the director credit then this is a very different situation. He has technically played the role of director here. If you didn't discuss it at all, you may loose that credit.

If this guy knew you were director from day one, and is trying to totally screw you, do the above, and get a lawyer.

The lawyer will tell you what I just said about the contract, but he might also rattle the guys cage enough for him to cough up your reel.

Before anything, just try to negotiate calmly and intelligently with him. If you reach an impass, see above.

Or this!!! If this is a bad guy, perhaps he shouldn't get his way. Either way, I feel for you. Good luck.

Agreed. My only concern is him blowing up the project and taking what's in the can until it can be resolved, sometime in 2014. If you were in post, at least it's done.

The OP has made some giant mistakes and the DP is taking full advantage. What a mess.

I don't know how UK law works but in the USA, if there is no contract, you can still be the owner of the DP's copyrights if you can demonstrate that a work for hire situation was in place. For example if you paid the DP, you paid for everything else, you paid to rent the equipment, you made all of the arrangement for the shoot and set the hours then if push came to shove in court you would win. That's a work for hire situation -- he's not working as an independent contractor.

Does anyone know the UK stance on this?

As I said, I still owe him 25% and he can't actually do anything with the footage as it's my script but he could in theory blackmail me into anything as it's his footage right now.

Does anyone know the UK stance on this?

Yes.

Your local entertainment attorney does. :secret:

Yes, who has physical possession of the footage? If you don't have it, say what it takes to get it.

Lawyers love spending hours negotiating nothing.
If you paid for the whole damn movie then why does he have possession of the footage? I'd try to figure out a creative way to get possession of the footage then sever ties with this a**hole DP.

From what Jamie is saying, the DP has the footage and they're not done shooting. It seems to me that a decision has to be made on finishing the project or not. The legal stuff aside, are the actors in town forever? Probably not.

Also, another reason I haven't been as 'vocal' and hands-on in my directing is that from the beginning, every time I did try to dictate something, the DP would say 'I think we should do it this way' and 'that's my job not yours'. Catch-22 and now I'm being held over a barrel on it.

There are plenty of ways for a director to be hands on and vocal that have nothing to do with the DP. I'm not doubting you, but I'd love to hear the other side of the story.

As soon as the sun comes up, find a local entertainment attorney. You need one.

Zensteve has said it twice and I'm going to make it thrice.

Either give this DP the director credit or spend a few $ and book 30 min with an entertainment Lawyer and find out your rights from a professional.

Zensteve has said it twice and I'm going to make it thrice.

Either give this DP the director credit or spend a few $ and book 30 min with an entertainment Lawyer and find out your rights from a professional.

Unfortunately this poster is correct.

However there are two other suggestions I have. The first is to simply say 'no.' The second is to negotiate with the end goal of giving him a co-director credit. There is a third possibility but I am not going to suggest this on an open forum. As a steer it involves a big bloke and as the big bloke in question in my personal experience has been incredibly effective.

My favourite suggestion is the 'promise him and then don't do it' idea. It is simple and has a touch of karma about it.

My favourite suggestion is the 'promise him and then don't do it' idea. It is simple and has a touch of karma about it.
The DP is trying to pull a switcheroo. Do your OWN switcheroo and you're back to the original agreement. If you are paying for this whole shoot, and it's all just a verbal agreement (with no emails, voicemails or other documentation to demonstrate otherwise) then if English copyright law is the same as American "work for hire" copyright law then I'd strong arm this guy out of the picture and fire him as soon as you can get hold of the footage. Tell him you want to make copies of all of the footage for security reasons (in case of fire, theft, etc).

The DP is trying to pull a switcheroo. Do your OWN switcheroo and you're back to the original agreement. If you are paying for this whole shoot, and it's all just a verbal agreement (with no emails, voicemails or other documentation to demonstrate otherwise) then if English copyright law is the same as American "work for hire" copyright law then I'd strong arm this guy out of the picture and fire him as soon as you can get hold of the footage. Tell him you want to make copies of all of the footage for security reasons (in case of fire, theft, etc).

I think in England though you need a release form signed by the DP.

UPDATE: He's now come in saying:

He'll give me the Director credit but he wants to be credited as producer and have control over post-production! Something that I'd be paying for! He also hinted that as I signed no contract he has a right to not only keep my footage but not give me my money back...this is insane

UPDATE: He's now come in saying:

He'll give me the Director credit but he wants to be credited as producer and have control over post-production! Something that I'd be paying for! He also hinted that as I signed no contract he has a right to not only keep my footage but not give me my money back...this is insane

If that will get you the footage back, take it!

Even put it in writing if it'll get you the footage. That contract is worth the paper it's signed on since is was created under duress.

UPDATE: He's now come in saying:

He'll give me the Director credit but he wants to be credited as producer and have control over post-production! Something that I'd be paying for! He also hinted that as I signed no contract he has a right to not only keep my footage but not give me my money back...this is insane

Control of post-production and producer credit? There's absolutely no question that you are the producer on this. And wanting to control post-production smells really fishy to me. He probably realizes that once he gives you the footage then you have all the control, so he doesn't want to give it up. If you let him take over PP, I would kiss any credits goodbye (from the sound of his character I wouldn't put it past him to even take the writing credit).

Do you have any friends or relatives who are lawyers? If so I would pull in a favor and get a formal letter written (on paper with the law office's official letterhead), stating that he has been contracted in a work for hire situation and that you have proof of transactions (unless you handed him cash there WILL be a paper trail); that while he can legally hold the footage from you, if he does not surrender it then his contract is terminated. Also, if he uses the footage in any way, he will be sued for copyright infringement. Be sure to put specifics of your 'demands' if he is to finish out his contract. For example: he will have credit as DP and Camera Operator, nothing more. He will sign a release form giving you the rights to all footage he has shot for your project. And finally that he will surrender the footage already shot and do the same at the end of every remaining shooting day.

The lawyer-friend letterhead borrowing is a solid trick (although it's not really a trick) I learned when working for a chiropractor. He had a couple lawyer friends who would literally just let him write his own letter, but use the official letter head at no cost. Most people see that and get very scared and, in the case of the chiro, will pay up what they owe right away.


I'm sensing that this guy has a domineering personality and that you let him walk all over you. You say you had shots planned but he told you they were bad and ignored them. That was your first mistake (well actually your first mistake was not getting anything in writing). If you're going to be director you have to be confident and a leader. It's not too late to stand up for yourself, your position and your work. You're in charge, don't let him strong-arm you out of that.

All things aside! If you find a compromise, how could you possibly shoot the remaining footage together after all this crap?!

Good comment Phil,

Like so many have said here, obtain your footage at all costs. After that it's "possesion is 9/10's of the law" He'll have a hell of a time convincing a court to force you to give it back.

After that the first words out of your mouth should be "you're fired" Have some friends around to watch, that will be tough for him, like he made things tough for you.

You and I'm sure many of your friends and possibly your family will be hurt by this guys self centered and bullying actions, financially or otherwise. Get your footage, and then aggressively blacklist the guy. Take him to court. Something I used to have difficulty with was telling the difference between an enemy and a friend that just fell off the wagon. Now days, I don't hesitate to attack a person who's clearly attacking me. That's experience talking, they're expecting you to hesitate, maybe meet their demands. The government had this down years ago, don't negotiate with terrorists (anyone who tries to push you around with fear).

Finally, in dealing with A$%holes, NEVER kill one, if you do, two more will come to take their place. But seriously, there are too many good people out there trying too hard for you to do any more business with a F*&ktard.

True story, several years back, a con man (a real one) took severe advantage of me, and took 100k of a friends money. It was all based on a tapestry of lies, and the guy apparently spent the money on cocaine, and defaulted on 10's of thousands of payment to me. I wiped out his internet presence, copied every cc address out of every email he ever sent me, and sent out a letter to all 300 of his contacts telling them about how he had been serially conning people out of money and time for years. I received a great number of emails back. As soon as I spelled out clearly the method he used to trick people, apparently they all saw it immediately. All members of his "team" quit within 2 weeks after me. All his investors pulled out and wrote me letters of apology, many asking that I just forget they had ever been associated with him, so we could do business in the future. Last I heard, he was drinking himself to death in a seedy local bar.

I don't look back or feel a shred of remorse about it. I didn't hurt one guy, I saved a crowd of innocent people from being hurt over and over. That's how I look at it. F#$k Scott Cox.

Also, another reason I haven't been as 'vocal' and hands-on in my directing is that from the beginning, every time I did try to dictate something, the DP would say 'I think we should do it this way' and 'that's my job not yours'. Catch-22 and now I'm being held over a barrel on it.

WHO is paying for this production?

If you are, what you say goes. If your production isn't finished, is it possible to start looking --quietly-- for a replacement of this person? Once you get back your footage, of course. Did you pay for the tape stock? That is your property if you did.

-- spinner :cool:

EDIT: you never learn a lesson better than when you get screwed over. Agree to his being producer and have him turn over your stock. After that, fire him as producer and DP. You can do that, you are the producer who's paying for everything.

You might also consider contacting Guido the Killer Pimp. He could solve the issue.

If nothing has been signed, I'd do whatever it takes to get your footage back then fire his ass.

But also after reading what you've been doing, it seems like Producer credit also seems very appropriate. It might just be worth it to give him director credit, finish the film, and move on.

True story, several years back, a con man (a real one) took severe advantage of me, and took 100k of a friends money. It was all based on a tapestry of lies, and the guy apparently spent the money on cocaine, and defaulted on 10's of thousands of payment to me. I wiped out his internet presence, copied every cc address out of every email he ever sent me, and sent out a letter to all 300 of his contacts telling them about how he had been serially conning people out of money and time for years. I received a great number of emails back. As soon as I spelled out clearly the method he used to trick people, apparently they all saw it immediately. All members of his "team" quit within 2 weeks after me. All his investors pulled out and wrote me letters of apology, many asking that I just forget they had ever been associated with him, so we could do business in the future. Last I heard, he was drinking himself to death in a seedy local bar.
I know of a similar story. Con artist producer / director enriched himself with over 100K when it was agreed that he was to ONLY work for back-end interest in the movie. The bottom line is that you can't trust anyone with large amounts of money, and whenever you embark on a big project (ex- a movie) you must have a lawyer draft a contract "with teeth". There's so many loopholes in law that ONLY an entertainment lawyer can draft these contracts. Anything less than a contract with teeth is often not even worth the paper it's written on.

Back to the thread starter... be glad this is just a dispute regarding a short!

My solution would involve a baseball bat.

If that's not your style, I'd do as CamVader said and use this is a lesson to always remember that people are scum that you can never rely on to do the right thing. This is why contracts exist. Involve lawyers at every stage of a production and have people sign everything for everything. Screw them before they screw you.

I still say the baseball bat is the best way to go, though.

There is no reasonable solution to this problem as your DP is not going to be reasonable about anything. You are going to have to put this into the "lessons learned" category and resolve it as best as you can.

Always, and I mean ALWAYS, get everything in writing; then there are never any questions about responsibilities and ownership.

BTW, when and where was the script registered? Who else was privy to all of your communications and agreements with the DP? How were things presented to the rest of the crew and the cast and by whom? Did you retain the cast and crew, or did he? Who did the preproduction? Who has paid for everything so far AND HAS THE RECEIPTS TO PROVE IT? (Just having the cheques which he deposited could possibly be proof that he was retained as a freelance "work-for-hire" that would negate his claims.) And, if he wants to be in charge of post production is he willing to assume the financial responsibilities, including audio post, visual FX, color correction, marketing, transfers to film or other formats, etc., etc,. etc.?

List it all out and visit a solicitor; you have to find out where you stand legally before you proceed. Just string him along for a while...

BTW, when and where was the script registered? Who else was privy to all of your communications and agreements with the DP? How were things presented to the rest of the crew and the cast and by whom? Did you retain the cast and crew, or did he? Who did the preproduction? Who has paid for everything so far AND HAS THE RECEIPTS TO PROVE IT? (Just having the cheques which he deposited could possibly be proof that he was retained as a freelance "work-for-hire" that would negate his claims.) And, if he wants to be in charge of post production is he willing to assume the financial responsibilities, including audio post, visual FX, color correction, marketing, transfers to film or other formats, etc., etc,. etc.?


To answer your questions: I've paid for everything. I wrote the script, cast the actors, organised locations, production, wired money to his account and I'd be paying for this post-production where he now wants to be the producer.

I still owe him the last 1/3 of his fee and we have 5 shoot days left. I think it's more than fair to demand a release form signed before I pay that. Anyone have a link to a solid form online to use?

To answer your questions: I've paid for everything. I wrote the script, cast the actors, organised locations, production, wired money to his account and I'd be paying for this post-production where he now wants to be the producer.

I still owe him the last 1/3 of his fee and we have 5 shoot days left. I think it's more than fair to demand a release form signed before I pay that. Anyone have a link to a solid form online to use?
I would flat out DEMAND to get my footage. Document your demands with an email and preferably a certified letter. Don't concede anything. Your position is that the movie is yours. The footage is yours and he has no right to retain your footage. Play hardball. His arguments are at best based on verbal representations that dissipated into thin air and can't be proved unless you admit to them. The fact that you paid for everything is big. Even if he might legally own a share of the copyrights (which I have doubts), one partner cannot sue the other partner for copyright infringement under US law. It's just a breach of contract case. I can't imagine that laws are much different in the UK than the US.

I can't imagine that laws are much different in the UK than the US.

It seems they are I'm afraid. Whoever shoots the footage, owns the footage. The worst case scenario is I get my money back but all that footage wasted in which case no-one wins. I know he can't use the footage himself but he can hold me to ransom over it until he gets what he wants.

It seems they are I'm afraid. Whoever shoots the footage, owns the footage. The worst case scenario is I get my money back but all that footage wasted in which case no-one wins. I know he can't use the footage himself but he can hold me to ransom over it until he gets what he wants.

This guy is a bully. Cut your losses and next time (when you reshoot this short film) don't let people walk all over you.

Sounds like you really need to think more about negotiation and compromise rather than who's right or wrong. You are in an awkward situation, figure out how to provide him what he's looking for without giving away what you feel you deserve. How about asking him if he's willing to accept SHARED credit across the board. Co-producer, co-director. BUT, this also includes co-supervision of post-production. You've invested to much of yourself into this project to let someone else take it over. Work together (through gritted teeth) to get it done, and then move on--without using this guy ever again.

So eimajjjj, there's absolutely no paper work at all? No receipts? Nothing? Nothing he can bring to court if he decides to sue you and vice versa?

Is he asking you to sign something to get your footage back? Or does he just want his Producer/Director credit?

How about you tell him that because you're doing it together you'll give him a "co-direted by" credit - all the best 50% is better than 0% especially, if he walks and at all comes to a halt.

Put it down to experience and carry on 'learning' - all the best, Jim.

Who owns the camera and media cards? Hard to believe that if some one takes pic with my camera that they all of a sudden own that pic.

This guy is a bully. Cut your losses and next time (when you reshoot this short film) don't let people walk all over you.

It's a feature! And it's not a case of being walked over but a case of me legally screwing up with a guy that seems to be on the border of blackmail.

He owns the camera and media cards but has been backing up to my drives every day so I'll have a physical storage of all the footage at the end but if he never signs that release form I can never use it.

I simply don't want the guy co-producing my film that I've busted my balls for the last year and a half. I think he may be accepting the 10% of any possible profits but that makes me sick I've been strong armed into that. I expect though he's going to say 'Pay me to do the post-production and give me 10%' which is simply ridiculous.

Lesson to be learned for all indeed. The worst-case for him is that he has to pay me my money back and the feature isn't released (although he said he doesn't have to pay that back to me as there was no invoice/receipt, I wired it). Worst-case for me is all this work has come to nothing.

So how did the one-hour consultation with your local entertainment attorney go?

It's a feature! And it's not a case of being walked over but a case of me legally screwing up with a guy that seems to be on the border of blackmail.

Oh, it's not on the border. You need to decide if you're going to play ball or take legal action, or at least advice, beginning tomorrow morning. Most judges have little patience with business arrangements done without contracts, so keep that in mind.

In the US, it's not uncommon for an attorney to file suit and put a lien on property (even bank accounts) owned by the defendant until the case is heard. Sometimes, this is enough to inspire negotiations all by itself, like getting the footage back.

Wait! Who did the actors sign with? Even just permission to use likeness.

Wait! Who did the actors sign with? Even just permission to use likeness.

With me. Locations and performance releases all signed to me. Script written by me. Footage shot with his camera. Data stored on my drives. Release not given unless I give him 10% plus Producer role.

I do need to see an attorney I think.

With me. Locations and performance releases all signed to me. Script written by me. Footage shot with his camera. Data stored on my drives.

You've got the data? If so I'd tell him to get lost.

If you've all the footage, FIRE him right now. Do not pay his remaining 25%.

QUICKLY schedule the remaining shots with your new DP, pronto.

You don't need to talk to your original DP again. Let HIM talk to a lawyer first . . . his lawyer will probably inform him that his case is weak and to proceed will cost him money he'll never see again.

If you've all the footage, FIRE him right now. Do not pay his remaining 25%.

QUICKLY schedule the remaining shots with your new DP, pronto.

You don't need to talk to your original DP again. Let HIM talk to a lawyer first . . . his lawyer will probably inform him that his case is weak and to proceed will cost him money he'll never see again.

Sorry guys, but in the UK you can't use a DPs footage without them signing the copyright release form over first. I could in theory use the footage, make the film but it won't go anywhere unless I get a signed release from him.

Sorry guys, but in the UK you can't use a DPs footage without them signing the copyright release form over first. I could in theory use the footage, make the film but it won't go anywhere unless I get a signed release from him.

If you have possession of the footage, you've got most of the cards and he ain't got squat. For sure, see a lawyer. But you seem pretty solid.

Question: Somehow I get the sense you want this guy to stay involved in the project, that you dislike his personality but like his work. If that's the case, it's complicated.

Ok, this is what I would do:

1) Meet with an entertainment attorney for an hour. If any solutions require the spending of additional funds, drop your project.

2) If you cannot afford an attorney, drop your project. My fear is that from this position of weakness, you're going to get screwed over and over again by this project even if you proceed with good faith.

Regroup and shoot your project later with all the proper paperwork giving you full ownership and control of the film.

With me. Locations and performance releases all signed to me. Script written by me. Footage shot with his camera. Data stored on my drives. Release not given unless I give him 10% plus Producer role.

I do need to see an attorney I think.

He hasn't acted in the producer role, whereas director there's an argument for.

Is he a member of any professional organizations? If he is, frequently they have ethics rules that may be exploited in this case if approached with care and thought and your seeking their help.

He wasn't the producer but he WANTS to be the producer in post-production, effectively giving him control over the final product.

He works freelance and this is his first feature as head DP. No way can I cut my losses 3 weeks into a feature shoot and start again. It's not financially or logistically possible.

Weigh up your options. Monetarily, is it worth giving him creative control of post-production, rather than hiring an entertainment lawyer and attempting to scare or legally strong-arm him? Do the potential gains of you keeping producer credit outweigh potential losses of an unsuccessful lawsuit? Is money even a factor here? Is this something you can/are willing to walk away from and file it as a lesson learned?

After looking at all the very good advice here, I think you need to write a list of the pros and cons of taking this guy on.

He wasn't the producer but he WANTS to be the producer in post-production, effectively giving him control over the final product.

He works freelance and this is his first feature as head DP. No way can I cut my losses 3 weeks into a feature shoot and start again. It's not financially or logistically possible.

Hear me out, contact:

British Society of Cinematographers
Contact Frances Russell (Secretary)
Address PO Box 2587
Gerrards Cross
Bucks
SL9 7WZ
Telephone 01753 888052
Fax 01753 891486
Website www.bscine.com
Email BSCine@btconnect.com

Ask if he's a member (even though you know he's not). When they give you any answer, ask for their help and briefly explain how you're being extorted. Ask for any advice they may have. Ask them who else you should talk to.

Now they have his name because you asked if he's a member and most professionals resent non-professionals who pretend to offer the same services. You have nothing to lose and you just may gain a powerful ally. If anything, he already has a complaint against him and he's not even a member (yet). Start the blacklisting. Tell your DP what you've initiated and ask him if he's prepared to continue with his demands. This is his one and only chance to rectify the situation, continue with the project, and save his reputation. You will go to any and every length to make good on your warning. "Try me."

Whoever shoots the footage, owns the footage.
That's in an independent contractor situation. In the US if you have a work for hire situation then the footage is yours.

I'd demand of him to turn over the footage (or copies) so that you can proceed with editing, etc. If he refuses then I'd demand reimbursement for all of your expenses and legal fees. The whole purpose of hiring him under your verbal contract was to release the short. He is in breach if he prevents this from happening. The problem is that it costs money to go to court to get things straightened out. In the US about 71% of victorious litigants never collect on judgments (because the defendant is broke, etc).

When someone screwed me, and I brought up verbal contracts, a lawyer friend told me "verbal contracts aren't worth the paper their not written on"

When someone screwed me, and I brought up verbal contracts, a lawyer friend told me "verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they're not written on"
Some things verbal are impossible to prove. But in this case it's very obvious that the thread starter had a verbal agreement in which he hired the DP in order to release a short. There's "consideration" and work was in fact performed. People enter into verbal contracts every day... dental work, hair cut, etc. Judges aren't stupid. He didn't shell out $60,000 just for shits and giggles. Verbal contract.

Some things verbal are impossible to prove. But in this case it's very obvious that the thread starter had a verbal agreement in which he hired the DP in order to release a short. There's "consideration" and work was in fact performed. People enter into verbal contracts every day... dental work, hair cut, etc. Judges aren't stupid. He didn't shell out $60,000 just for shits and giggles. Verbal contract.

I've literally been told to turn around and go home by every lawyer I've ever approached about a verbal contract.

I told a lawyer i could show him an email where A guy promised me 375k delivered the next week. (still got the email if you think you can enforce it for me blade, I'll give you 50 grand) He wouldn't even bother to read the email. Most of the time I was only able to talk to a secratery, and then my calls weren't returned at all.

Agh! What a muddy / unfortunate situation. If it were me I'd call his bluff and try to get savvy with your rights by talking to an attorney.

Are there any examples/templates of forms that a producer could give to a director of photography to prevent this situation (here in the USA?). I searched but couldn't find one that was meant' for this type of situation.

I've literally been told to turn around and go home by every lawyer I've ever approached about a verbal contract.

I told a lawyer i could show him an email where A guy promised me 375k delivered the next week. (still got the email if you think you can enforce it for me blade, I'll give you 50 grand) He wouldn't even bother to read the email. Most of the time I was only able to talk to a secratery, and then my calls weren't returned at all.

And I have won settlements, in court, in front of a judge, based on oral contracts. One caveat, the other party didn't deny the contract existed, though it would have been hard for him to deny it had he chosen that route.

And this is why the OP should stop listening to us, and get a consultation with a lawyer or Solicitor or Barister or even a Barrista would even be better than listening to us.

I've literally been told to turn around and go home by every lawyer I've ever approached about a verbal contract.

I told a lawyer i could show him an email where A guy promised me 375k delivered the next week. (still got the email if you think you can enforce it for me blade, I'll give you 50 grand) He wouldn't even bother to read the email. Most of the time I was only able to talk to a secratery, and then my calls weren't returned at all.
You are comparing apple verbal contracts with orange verbal contracts. We are talking about whether or not the thread starter has a copyright claim to the portion contributed by the DP or not. Under US law I say yes. He should have every right to get possession of the footage, edit it and sell it. The other question is whether or not he is considered the full "author" or just a joint owner of copyrights as far as the DP's contribution goes. That can be a gray area. The only hitch might be whether or not the DP used his own equipment. If the equipment was paid for and rented by the thread starter then I think he might be able to wrestle away full ownership of the copyrights in court. If the DP provided the camera equipment but the thread starter paid an additional fee for it then I think the producer might also wrestle away full ownership of the copyrights in court. Of course he would need to provide evidence that he paid additional for the equipment (emails, print ad seeking a DP and own equipment, memo on Pay Pal invoice, etc).

BTW I'm not just talking based on urban myth. I've dealt with lawyers extensively on this very topic regarding more than one case. Google "work made for hire VS independent contractor + copyrights".

Are there any examples/templates of forms that a producer could give to a director of photography to prevent this situation (here in the USA?). I searched but couldn't find one that was meant' for this type of situation.
Have ALL crew sign these, in particular anyone who contributes art to the film (DP, art department people, editor, graphics animation people, sound editor, etc)...
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab261/legoland1/Crew-Release-Generic.jpg?t=1310951686

Hey, I didn't have time to go through all the replies you got. But I did like one by Nate North, where he says, tell the guy that you will start a website with this story and detailing how you will employ an SEO expert to do it, so that whenever somebody googles him, they will find this story and he will be essentially unhire-able.

Listen man, I think your position is rough. But you need to take control of things. It's absolute bs for anybody to tell me on set what is and what is NOT my job. I'm the director. What I say goes. If somebody doesn't like it, I don't need them on set.

But now that you're in this mess, you need to take control back. You need to put fear in him by telling him EXACTLY how it is. This is YOUR movie. YOU are the director. He needs to keep his end of the bargain or you are reshooting EVERYTHING.

Now I don't know how much money you spent. But if you can afford to re-shoot everything, do it. Also, make it clear to him that you will spend your last penny publicizing his name and behavior to every grandmother who can use the internet.

If you sound like you NEED him, his type won't help you. There is something fundamentally wrong with this guy. You need to tell him that even if you don't finish the movie, you will publicize his name and behavior. You just keep telling him that, and you better work up a rage.

And I hope you can afford to re-shoot everything. If I were in your position and if I could afford it, I would re-shoot everything. If I couldn't afford it, I might wait until I could to re-shoot it. In the mean time, I'd scare the living hell out of him if he has any hopes for working as a dp in antarctica.

BTW, in Canada, the law is whoever pushes the button, owns the footage, unless a signed release form says otherwise.

Good Luck!! Be strong!!

Take him on a trip to Reno, Nevada on a trip, "For fun." In Nevada it's called open carry. For example, but not limited to a hand-gun, pistol, revolver or machine pistol in an unobstructed hip holster. This means as long as you don't hide it, you can pretty much walk around with a semi-auto or AR and "escort" him on a "desert safari."

Also in Nevada, whoever holds the gun and has more insurance owns whatever. Welcome to the wild west.

Also in Nevada, whoever holds the gun and has more insurance owns whatever. Welcome to the wild west.

You know, hunteq, you bring up an interesting point. Put in the same position, I might be tempted to to make a few calls to people who know people and set up a little "ride in the country" to appeal to that DP on a different level and maybe see the error in his ways. ;)

That's just me, though.

If I was in your position I'd take a walk to the border here in Reno. The La Posada line. The border between city and county. Law is, what the Sheriff say, goes. Also if you're in county, if you're 1500 feet away from an occupied building, you can do whatever you want with guns and/or destructive devices. Also as a new law, deputies aren't sent out anymore except for medical and to investigate the aftermath of things. I guess the tribal police could be a problem but my hip out guns them. One tribal cop for the whole northern region.

BTW, in Canada, the law is whoever pushes the button, owns the footage, unless a signed release form says otherwise.
Holy sh**! That is unfathomable! I just did some reading up on Canadian copyright law....
"....does not contain a "work made for hire" concept that is comparable to that contained in the 1976 Copyright Act of the United States. Thus, while many categories of work created by independent contactors in the United States may qualify as works made for hire, such that the copyright therein is owned by the hiring party, the same does not apply in Canada."
http://www.heenanblaikie.com/fr/publications/item?id=956

I'll bet you've heard some stories about about producers who didn't get releases, essentially getting royally screwed over.

This page provides some insight into UK copyright law. Looks like England might have work for hire laws that favor the producer.... http://www.sutherland.com/files/Publication/803e946d-83fe-4f38-8eaa-ec2fbf9b3782/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/11e6c1f9-66f4-4151-b480-251781227c39/WorkforHireLaws.pdf

This page provides some insight into UK copyright law. Looks like England might have work for hire laws that favor the producer.... http://www.sutherland.com/files/Publication/803e946d-83fe-4f38-8eaa-ec2fbf9b3782/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/11e6c1f9-66f4-4151-b480-251781227c39/WorkforHireLaws.pdf

I was reading over the same thing, but it sounds like if there's no work-for-hire contract with a freelancer, then the copyright remains with the person who shot the footage. Which really sucks.

What about offering him an executive producer or (preferably) associate producer credit? The associate producer credit is the best one, as a lot of the time those are given to people who only have a casual acquaintance with the production and don't carry much weight in many cases. Executive producers are typically the money men, but I'd still rather hand one of these out rather than a straight producer credit.

At this point, you kind of just have to do whatever is necessary to get the rights to use the footage. I know it sucks, but swallow your pride and do what's necessary to get it done. You'll be the one who comes away from this looking like the bigger man and your cast and other crew will be grateful for it. And then, when the film is finished and you've got all the proper paperwork signed, you make the story public, tell everyone who'll listen what this DP did to you, and hopefully he'll never find reputable work again. In fact, you might even be able to get the contract saying that he gets whatever credit throw out, since it was signed under duress (if you wanted to pursue it, though I bet that would be costly).

Sorry for your bad luck man.

My solution, get your footage back in whatever way that has been expressed. Sign him on as prod.

Then after teh movie has been produced and finalized, go to your local Walmart or generic chain store. By yourself a nice black ski mask. If you have any friends get one for them to. Next, stop at the local hardware store. Now you find a nice length of pipe-doesn't have to be new, in fact, the rustier the scarier, the scarier the better. Take a nice drive to this ignorant, selfish bastatrd's cave. Wait til 230AM on a Monday night-(this is not from personal experience but if I were a burglar this is when Chamburger would strike)-now you can either bust in guns blazing or you can do it real quiet...like the Mafia.

After you BnE in you talk to him about owing money to Uncle Tony. When he pleads with you slap him. After you've roughed him up and you get him to say he doesn't have the money, you can do a couple things but the most obvious: You can break his hand so when he holds a camera again, he'll think twice before he fucks with anyone else, or when he craps his pants like most people cut from a similar cloth do, you can snapshot that for your own perpetual enjoyment-this is what I'd do.

Just remember get in, get out, keep the emotion minimal, and most importantly have fun. Stay no longer than 4-6 minutes depending on teh living situation, no less than 2 minutes-leave too quickly he'll know you;re an amateur lol. Oh yea i've learned through numerous prank calls that if you talk like Christian Bale's Batman no one will ever know who the fuck you are.

If I was in your position I'd take a walk to the border here in Reno. The La Posada line. The border between city and county. Law is, what the Sheriff say, goes. Also if you're in county, if you're 1500 feet away from an occupied building, you can do whatever you want with guns and/or destructive devices. Also as a new law, deputies aren't sent out anymore except for medical and to investigate the aftermath of things. I guess the tribal police could be a problem but my hip out guns them. One tribal cop for the whole northern region.
I can personally vouch for the rugged frontier spirit of Nevada cops. They are some tough hombres. Here's an interview that shows what serious dudes they are. You'd never want to cross one of these guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0gyNxM0aDk

This explains the UK laws, at least:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/artinfo/could-the-cindy-sherman-o_b_899866.html

And I still think this guy is a just a bully. If you cave to his demands he will just ask for more and more until you have no credit or control and you can kiss your movie goodbye. So, would you rather have wasted your money on a movie that never gets finished, or wasted your money on a movie that does get finished but you get no credit for?

I was reading over the same thing, but it sounds like if there's no work-for-hire contract with a freelancer, then the copyright remains with the person who shot the footage.
Which lines of text are you reading?

I gathered from that article that in England if it's a work for hire situation then the producer owns the copyrights.

Which lines of text are you reading?

I gathered from that article that English law is similar to Australian law. Australian law says....

"a different set of copyright rules governs the ownership of Australian sound recordings, cinematographic works, audio and video broadcasts, and typographical arrangements of published works. 4 Copyright Act, 1968, §§ 97-100. For these categories, the law vests copyright ownership in either an employer or a commissioning party over the originating author. Sound recordings are owned by the owner of the master recording; the
producer of a film is the sole owner of the film’s copyright. Copyright Act, 1968, §§ 97-98. Likewise, anyone commissioning a sound recording or work of cinema is deemed the owner of that work."

You're right, I misread it (or didn't read it fully). Right in the executive summary it says (bolding mine):

In the case of works by independent contractors, Japan and the three common law nations vest initial ownership of such works in the contractor, although all provide for the freedom to contract otherwise. The U.S. limits the definition of works made for hire to nine specific categories of works. Further, both Australia and the United Kingdom limit the application of the general rule to artistic and literary works. Ownership of sound recordings and films in these two nations will vest in the commissioning party absent some other agreement.

So, to the OP, it looks like the law is clearly on your side, even without a release from the DP.

So, to the OP, it looks like the law is clearly on your side, even without a release from the DP.
I'd "read him the riot act" demanding my footage. If he doesn't comply then a court room is the only remedy... unless of course he can get this guy to fly out to Nevada. :)

You know, hunteq, you bring up an interesting point. Put in the same position, I might be tempted to to make a few calls to people who know people and set up a little "ride in the country" to appeal to that DP on a different level and maybe see the error in his ways. ;)

That's just me, though.

I did mention my solution was a baseball bat. Messier, but far more cathartic.

I did mention my solution was a baseball bat. Messier, but far more cathartic.

;) I'm at least two degrees of Kevin Bacon away from the methodology. :cool:

Try a compermize see if he will take a codirector spot

fun thread to read ( like watching a car wreck!) any updates from the OP?

Take him off the credits - change the name of the project - prob won't even know.

If he does let him 'prove' he shot it.

If all else fails, I know someone who knows someone... ;-0

Just throwing in my 2 cents

It really does sound like you did the job of the producer. Why don't just credit yourself as such? Chances are, being more experience, your DP probably did MOST of the director's job anyway.

Credit him as Director, and yourself for Producer, Screenply, and if you want co-director.

They are not bad credits in my opinion, and far easier and probably cheaper than getting a lawsuit.

And it sounds like your DP is a pretty talented guy who is willing to work hard and long to get a project done. If you sort out this mess well without upseting either party, you may well gain a good colleague. And lets be honest in this field, iit's not what you know that makes you stand out, but who you know. The more contacts the merrier =)

He wasn't the producer but he WANTS to be the producer in post-production, effectively giving him control over the final product.

He works freelance and this is his first feature as head DP. No way can I cut my losses 3 weeks into a feature shoot and start again. It's not financially or logistically possible.

Aha, it's about his empty agenda.
He tries to milk the project, because he has no other 'leads in the pipeline'.

The good thing about him wanting the credits is, that he apparently believes it's a good project. You are working on something worth hijacking...

Good luck!
Let us know how this ends!

Okay, so you made a mistake by not getting his release in writing.

Here is how I would play it...
1. I would discuss with him his wants with the position that there is no deal if I don't have the rights and releases in the agreement. Him wanting PP is off the table because I would not have control of the footage... Getting a signed contract saying you own the copyright is vital. Afterwards you can fire him or whatever... If he wants credit I would consider it and in the credit section of the film I would add "(FIRED)"
2. If you have the money or not, indicate that you plan to reshoot the feature from scratch with another DP (even have one lined up). If you can bluff that position he may be more willing to negotiate.
3. If negotiations go bad, it's a loss on the footage and simply indicate that you will be filling a small claims court (those exist in UK, where you don't have lawyers involved?) for the money paid to him. You may not win, but it will put into public record that he has had a claim agaist him.

There a some other good ideas that are UK specific such as lodging a complaint with the local DP organization etc. Just be truthful.


Re Canada law: unless you have a contract stating otherwise, whomever does the physical shooting owns the copyright to that material. So always get contracts and clearly state who owns the copyright.

Sorry for your bad luck man.

My solution, get your footage back in whatever way that has been expressed. Sign him on as prod.

Then after teh movie has been produced and finalized, go to your local Walmart or generic chain store. By yourself a nice black ski mask. If you have any friends get one for them to. Next, stop at the local hardware store. Now you find a nice length of pipe-doesn't have to be new, in fact, the rustier the scarier, the scarier the better. Take a nice drive to this ignorant, selfish bastatrd's cave. Wait til 230AM on a Monday night-(this is not from personal experience but if I were a burglar this is when Chamburger would strike)-now you can either bust in guns blazing or you can do it real quiet...like the Mafia.

After you BnE in you talk to him about owing money to Uncle Tony. When he pleads with you slap him. After you've roughed him up and you get him to say he doesn't have the money, you can do a couple things but the most obvious: You can break his hand so when he holds a camera again, he'll think twice before he fucks with anyone else, or when he craps his pants like most people cut from a similar cloth do, you can snapshot that for your own perpetual enjoyment-this is what I'd do.

Just remember get in, get out, keep the emotion minimal, and most importantly have fun. Stay no longer than 4-6 minutes depending on teh living situation, no less than 2 minutes-leave too quickly he'll know you;re an amateur lol. Oh yea i've learned through numerous prank calls that if you talk like Christian Bale's Batman no one will ever know who the fuck you are.

You forgot the most importaint thing....Leather gloves! and also i personaly think a metal little league baseball bat can be more intimidating then a rusty pipe......But thats just what ive herd;)

It would be nice to hear the DP's side of the story. It's an interesting thought to me that he might visit this forum and have checked out this thread.

As you've described it, OP, it sounds like you're being bullied. :(

You say that he based his hostile take-over on the fact that you had been deferring to him and letting him choose the shots. To that I would ask, so what? That's an important job, but since when is that all that a director does? You say that he did a lot of work beyond that of a DP? What else did he do?

I don't care how skilled he is as a DP, as you've described him, he sounds like an unprofessional scheister. Fire him. Do not work with him anymore. Tell your friends and associates to beware of him and why. I agree, do not give him a producer credit. According to your story, he deserves nothing of the kind. And DO NOT give him control of Post Production. It sounds like there would be nothing left of your in your film.

Thanks to the efforts of other members above, it sounds like in the UK the law favors you.

In the future, please get everyone to sign. That way everyone knows their roles and their rights.

If this project means enough to you and to others and you decide that you must have the footage already shot by the DP, then you'd better just do what Uncle Zensteve told you to do, if you can afford it.

And damn, Nate, Gorilla, Cham, et al...I would certainly want you guys on my side of a disagreement. :eek: :)

[Edit]: qualified a statement.

Consult with an entertainment lawyer. Make sure it's not just some general practice lawyer. I've said that I think you have a legit claim to get possession of your footage. Sue him for breach of contract while you're at it. Let us know how it goes...

I just had a thought...

You said this is the DP's first job as head DP. What is this person's background? Is it extensive enough for him to be taking over a film you are paying for? Plus, it still sounds like he thinks he can't be fired.

What about your actors? They signed a release with you, not him, for use of their likeness (someone asked this before). Would they be willing to say to this DP "we're not working with you nor did we give you permission to use our likeness or voices, nor are we going to finish this film with you (the DP)." Whether he has the footage or not, wouldn't that mean he couldn't use it? At least it would make it a waste of time to even go into post?

What about your crew? They've put in a lot of time and effort for you, could you bring them to your side as well? I guess I am suggesting a "strike" of sorts. He isn't only affecting you, but all your cast and crew as well. If they are on your side, you might not need legal action as the film will not get completed if they don't work with this DP. Which will also give you time to find a new DP and make him sign a release.


-- spinner :cool:

I know all you are thinking of right now is how you can get the footage and how to screw with him afterwards, and that seems to be the suggestion of a lot of people here, but what i think you really need is to settle this proffessionally.

If the guy says he wants to be producer or co-producer, ask him if he is willing to pay you back all the money which you spent, as well as more for hiring you as director, plus buying your script. If not, then he is not the producer. If he is willing to pay for part of that, you can settle this with him being co-producer.

Its not just about the credit at the end of the film, you've got to put in the effort to earn the credit. From your posts earlier, it seems he did really earn the credit of director. He probably wants to be producer because he is afraid as soon as he hand over the footage, you are going to fire him. Assure him that you wont

Besides, it seems he put in lots of effort and time and energy into this film too. If he holds the footage, he cant do anything about it either, since he dont have the right to your script. Its really in both of your interest to settle this peacefully and quickly. After which, out it on paper that you wont start firing each other as soon as he gives you the footage.

so...I spoke to an entertainment lawyer..apparently the producer and principal director has copyright to the footage but my concern here is that any possible distributor may still ask for a dp release form in which he could still hard ball me..

the lesson here: sign everything before anything!

so...I spoke to an entertainment lawyer..apparently the producer and principal director has copyright to the footage but my concern here is that any possible distributor may still ask for a dp release form in which he could still hard ball me..

the lesson here: sign everything before anything!

Did the lawyer suggest you would need a release from the dp? I'm sure if any film makers on this forum have needed a signed release from the dp to satisfy a distributor you'll find out pretty soon.

so...I spoke to an entertainment lawyer..apparently the producer and principal director has copyright to the footage but my concern here is that any possible distributor may still ask for a dp release form in which he could still hard ball me..

the lesson here: sign everything before anything!

That makes perfect sense, I can't imagine a situation where the DP could claim ownership. A lot of DP's don't even operate. And a lot of times there are multiple cameras running, so who'd own the footage then? Each operator get a share or something?

so...I spoke to an entertainment lawyer..apparently the producer and principal director has copyright to the footage but my concern here is that any possible distributor may still ask for a dp release form in which he could still hard ball me..

the lesson here: sign everything before anything!

Yes... but right now... you've still got the problem of who is actually the director or producer. From all the information you've posted, I'd like to say you are, but your DP might not agree to that. It's going to be messy if you bring it to court..

so...I spoke to an entertainment lawyer..apparently the producer and principal director has copyright to the footage but my concern here is that any possible distributor may still ask for a dp release form in which he could still hard ball me..

the lesson here: sign everything before anything!
OK. So as I thought it IS in fact a work for hire situation. You OWN the copyrights.

Yes the caveat is that many distributors want to see all releases, however let's face it.... Since when are SHORTS getting traditional brick and mortar distribution???? Name one indie short that is sold in physical stores? I know someone who signed a distribution deal for a compilation of several shorts with Echelon a few years ago and as far as I know they never asked for releases. Furthermore I don't think they wound up getting DVD's into any physical stores. It was just Internet distribution. Nowadays physical stores don't carry hardly ANYTHING indie. Wal-Mart? Best Buy? Fry's? Forget about it! They only carry the hits! You're looking at Internet distribution only, which means NOBODY will require releases -- not Amazon Advantage, not Create Space, not Film Baby (if you want to get into NetFlix hopefully), not anybody. You don't need to be bothered with any traditional distributor. So if this DP doesn't want to sign a release it's no big deal. In theory if you ever NEEDED a release from him you could actually sue HIM. It's standard procedure that people sign releases. It's part of their duty when hired to work on movies. I had an actor who refused to sign a release and I was told by an attorney that if and when their refusal to sign a release prevents me from getting distribution I can sue this actor for damages.

So don't be pushed around by this DP.

For what it's worth, this is actually a feature film, not a short. It's also a feature with recognizable names in the UK and a strong creative backing so has every chance of being bought (and of course every chance not to!)

However, what I've gathered now from talking to the lawyer and my own research is thus:

- I DO possess copyright of the film in terms of the subject matter and the script and the DP would have no ability to exploit or use the footage at all.
- However, in UK law, the DP would, it seems, have physical ownership of the footage shot and therefore without a release form signed could in effect stop any deal being signed or any broadcast of 'his' footage. Bear in mind I've paid for a service not for a release form and he could argue that he performed that service and has no right to release that footage.

The latter option would obviously result in a massive meltdown with his name being revealed and the film not being released, which is a lose-lose situation for both parties.

Well, another option is to have a wrap-party in Midsummer (the county, not the season) and announce it's uncertain whether the feature will be finished, because the DP is holding the footage hostage.
My guess is that Inspector Barneby has something to do next morning ;)

(Nevada desert is way to far away from the UK... :P)

Anyway, find I way to settle it.
You can always flame him afterwards...

And damn, Nate, Gorilla, Cham, et al...I would certainly want you guys on my side of a disagreement. :eek: :)

[Edit]: qualified a statement.

I can't speak for the rest of the ruffians, but I'm from NYC and we don't take kindly to backstabbers, wanna-bes, or sycophants concerned with their ego and ego alone. Bring em to the five points and Bill Cutting and I will show em what's what...

From the title of this thread I wasn't quite sure what to expect... something PG or X-rated. :P

However, in UK law, the DP would, it seems, have physical ownership of the footage shot and therefore without a release form signed could in effect stop any deal being signed or any broadcast of 'his' footage. Bear in mind I've paid for a service not for a release form and he could argue that he performed that service and has no right to release that footage.
That is the craziest law I've ever heard. You paid for everything, you own the copyrights, yet he owns the physical footage and you can't make copies of it. Why else do people make $60,0000 movies? Just for personal enjoyment????? LOL. Just a ponderous law. Lawyers and judges are detached from the real world. Can you at least sue him for breach of contract if he refuses to turn it over?

Even if you have an indie long form movie, nobody in the USA anyway is getting physical brick and mortar store distribution any more. Everything is Internet now. This isn't 1995 any more. No Internet distribution requires any release forms. Of course if you can't get possession of your footage then you can't edit it to begin with.

I can't speak for the rest of the ruffians, but I'm from NYC and we don't take kindly to backstabbers, wanna-bes, or sycophants concerned with their ego and ego alone. Bring em to the five points and Bill Cutting and I will show em what's what...

I hear that. That's where my thoughts went too.

We're 1 month further now.
Have things been settled in a positive way?
Did you get your project back?

Jeeze. Its a lesson for all. No matter WHO you are working with get a release signed. I know a girl that had her own mother sign a release form when she made a music video. I think the worse people to work with would be friends and/or relatives.

I hope the op gets it all sorted out and learns a lifelong lesson.

....

EDIT: posted by mistake.

No matter WHO you are working with get a release signed.
Yep. It's just part of doing business. If they take it personally then just say "It's because distributors require it."

Yep. It's just part of doing business. If they take it personally then just say "It's because distributors require it."

If somebody is going to give a director/producer difficulty over something as simple as signing a release, take that as a sign that they'll likely be difficult later in the production. Rid your production of bad seeds early!

For some reason a page a half of this discussion got deleted so I'll update again:

I've got the footage in hard copy and am going to continue post-production all the way down to the finish line. At that point, the DP does have the power to blackmail me for whatever he chooses in order to get his release but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

At that point, the DP does have the power to blackmail me for whatever he chooses in order to get his release but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
Sometimes lawsuits are a 2 way street. Ask your lawyer if you could file a cross complaint for breach of contract to offset any lawsuit that he might file.

For some reason a page a half of this discussion got deleted so I'll update again:

I've got the footage in hard copy and am going to continue post-production all the way down to the finish line. At that point, the DP does have the power to blackmail me for whatever he chooses in order to get his release but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

I suggest you do finish the film as you mentioned and absolutely IGNORE all comments and correspondence from the DP unless it is a letter from his lawyer. Make him pay to get a lawyer. Even then, the first letter is likely to be all bark and no bite. The step to file a lawsuit will cost the DP even more money -- a lawyer will tell the DP his case is weak for the money he's going to have to shell out.

SO IT'S HAPPENED:

After him demanding to overlook and control post-production and me simply saying no, he's sent a long official email to me saying that he's not going to let me use the images, they're his, he owns them. Our relationship is now irreparable, I'm not sure of my rights, I need another DP to finish the shoot, the film is in jeopardy. Bugger.

SO IT'S HAPPENED:

After him demanding to overlook and control post-production and me simply saying no, he's sent a long official email to me saying that he's not going to let me use the images, they're his, he owns them. Our relationship is now irreparable, I'm not sure of my rights, I need another DP to finish the shoot, the film is in jeopardy. Bugger.

Shitty. Sorry to hear that. I think you should take him to court. I don't buy this argument of his that the images belong to him.

That's messed up.

What'll be cheaper or more timely, lawsuit for recovery of material or reshoot?

Fight back. Morons like that need to be schooled!! An email is NOT official. Anything official would be from his lawyer.

Do not respond to his emails.

Spoke to another lawyer today and yes, without him signing over the image copyrights, he owns them. I'll have to negotiate an agreement with him to sign the copyright over apparently. The lawyer suggested I start with 0.5%....I don't think she knows how greedy this guy is.

Sorry to hear this. What a nightmare.

It's different here in the states. My lawyer said that under US law
all images captured under a work for hire (even if there is no written
contract) belongs to the person paying for the creation of the images.
She is unaware of a UK law that is different. I can't imagine even
considering making a film in the UK if the camera owner or operator
owns the images taken by that camera.

Sorry to hear this. What a nightmare.

It's different here in the states. My lawyer said that under US law
all images captured under a work for hire (even if there is no written
contract) belongs to the person paying for the creation of the images.
She is unaware of a UK law that is different. I can't imagine even
considering making a film in the UK if the camera owner or operator
owns the images taken by that camera.

Well most films you'd get the release forms signed in advance. I was way too naive and trusting on this occasion.

Well most films you'd get the release forms signed in advance. I was way too naive and trusting on this occasion.
And it seems in the UK you must have the camera owner and
operator sign a copyright release so you MUST be diligent. Here
in the states we don't need to be. I have not only never had a
DP sign a copyright release for the images I have never even
seen one - or heard of this until your post.

Do you know exactly who is it who owns the copyright of the
video or film images? Is it the hired DP? Is it the owner of the
camera? Is it the person operating the camera? Do you need
to get a signed release from all of these people?

I would be totally screwed if that law was here in the states. I
have worked with 8 different DP's - they would own my movies.
On the other hand I have shot thousands of hours of footage
for other people. In the UK I would own all that footage and could
be a jerk like the guy you worked with and hold the projects
hostage. I am so thankful that the laws are different here in the
states. And I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

And it seems in the UK you must have the camera owner and
operator sign a copyright release so you MUST be diligent. Here
in the states we don't need to be. I have not only never had a
DP sign a copyright release for the images I have never even
seen one - or heard of this until your post.

Do you know exactly who is it who owns the copyright of the
video or film images? Is it the hired DP? Is it the owner of the
camera? Is it the person operating the camera? Do you need
to get a signed release from all of these people?

I would be totally screwed if that law was here in the states. I
have worked with 8 different DP's - they would own my movies.
On the other hand I have shot thousands of hours of footage
for other people. In the UK I would own all that footage and could
be a jerk like the guy you worked with and hold the projects
hostage. I am so thankful that the laws are different here in the
states. And I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

Well he owned and operated the camera so that's all academic I guess. He's now demanding a producer credit, it gets worse and worse.

Write your politicians in England. That's the most ridiculous law I've ever heard if its true. Although if they're like our politicians in the US, they won't care one iota.

Hope it's an entertainment lawyer you spoke to. General practice lawyers are often wrong about stuff.

That's rotten eimajjjj

What are you going to do?

Give him what he wants or re-shoot?

What exactly does he want in exchange for signing over the rights to the footage?

That's rotten eimajjjj

What are you going to do?

Give him what he wants or re-shoot?

What exactly does he want in exchange for signing over the rights to the footage?

To be given producer credit, full access to post-production and 10% of the film.

To be given producer credit, full access to post-production and 10% of the film.

What is he demanding as proof that you will agree to all this? Can you fool him somehow? There's no dishonour is screwing someone who screwed you first.

Also, how good is his footage? Is it better than you can do all over again?

To be given producer credit, full access to post-production and 10% of the film.

I should have thought of this before: are you shooting a 'making of' as well?
That could be interesting: give him the credit, offer 5% and if full access means he can walk in at his own expense: let him walk in. Just misinform him about the dates :-p
After regaining the right and releasing the feature, release the making of.
Set up a meeting with hidden cameras like the programs that expose con-men.
It must be great drama like 'Lost in La Mancha' and it will burn his career to the ground.
He thinks he's clever and gets some quick and easy money, but easy money is worthless when it's the last money you'll ever earn...

You should at least post a blog about this with his name.
Keep it emotionless and factual; I guess other peoples reactions will add the emotions for you...

Anyway: good luck!

Id offer more percents and NO access to the post. This guy will likely find a way to own you in post too, and once he owns the footage and the edit, what do you have left?

Seriously, if he has power to HOLD up the production in post you can bet he will.

There is no simple solution, so:

1. Get all of the crew members you can get on your side as witnesses;

2. Have the release ready for the DP to be signed asap;

3. Get your DP in a room with all the witnesses;

4. Ask the crew if the DP has the right to be the Producer (that's just so that he'll end up talking) they'll say no, so tell everyone what happened and how the film is being jeopardized;

5. Hopefully, the DP will confess that he is only the DP and that somehow he is blackmailing you and the crew;

6. Threat to sue him if he does not confess that he was hired to do the DP job and now he wants credit for what he hasn't done.

7. Get all the footage of this meeting (if the UK law allows it somehow).

8. If it doesn't work (probably it won't), SUE HIM.

You'll have witnesses, you'll have everything.

Hi guys,

To wrap up a long story short:

I'm a first time feature film Director. I've written, produced, cast and am directing the film. Anyway, I hired a DP who has worked hard as we were understaffed to begin with. 10 days into a 20 day shoot he's called me up and basically said 'I've picked the shots, I want to be credited as Director'. I responded to the likes of 'are you mad? I've spent the best part of two years putting the locations, actors, script, absolutely everything together and even though you're much more experienced and technically savvy that I am, this is my film'. He quickly pointed out that AS WE SIGNED NO CONTRACT THE FOOTAGE IS LEGALLY HIS!

So, am I right in thinking he could actually just swing round and say 'You know what, this is my film, I'm taking it'.

Also, I've paid him 75% of his fee directly to his bank without invoice.

Total panic right now!

this is why sometimes its good to be feared. i find who i work with like me but also fear me when i lose my temper and i never let on to how soft i really am. in short; i want them to think that i could literally kill for my movie...like literally...so if my dp ever thought about pulling that stunt his next thought would be "but i like my kneecaps"...

this is why sometimes its good to be feared. i find who i work with like me but also fear me when i lose my temper and i never let on to how soft i really am. in short; i want them to think that i could literally kill for my movie...like literally...so if my dp ever thought about pulling that stunt his next thought would be "but i like my kneecaps"...

This is so crazy, looks like its going nowhere. An incredible amount of money and time wasted because a bully can't get his way. Sorry to keep on about it but it's a real eye-opener at least for all those first time feature directors.

One thing's for sure. If this gets shelved because of all this, I'll be releasing his name for all to see. Or maybe that's just too much negativity in itself.

Wow just wow... reading this the guy must have no soul to do this to a person. By all means if this goes tits up name and shame I wouldn't want to work with someone like that. If its any consolation, with this attitude towards working with others the guy wont get far, as the whole industry is based on working with others :yes:. Lessons learnt, I hope it wont put you off further projects.

This is so crazy, looks like its going nowhere. An incredible amount of money and time wasted because a bully can't get his way. Sorry to keep on about it but it's a real eye-opener at least for all those first time feature directors.

One thing's for sure. If this gets shelved because of all this, I'll be releasing his name for all to see. Or maybe that's just too much negativity in itself.

Quit complaining and get yourself some real life action.

Quit complaining and get yourself some real life action.

Obviously someone have no idea what it's like to watch all his hard work going down the drain.

If you've something to suggest, then do so politely, if you've nothing to share, show some compassion, if not even that, at least don't say anything.

Obviously someone have no idea what it's like to watch all his hard work going down the drain.

If you've something to suggest, then do so politely, if you've nothing to share, show some compassion, if not even that, at least don't say anything.

Yesterday night I read all posts of this thread and I really got touched by this terrible story. Actually it thought me a lot of lessons I had to learn.

As I read through the thread, I realized that among many funny jokes, the only real solutions were based in having to accept that somehow the DP won. But... I felt compelled at trying to find a solution where the OP, not the DP, could finally win it all. I really tried, posted and I was ignored by him. What do I read next? More complaints.

Sometimes people need to shake things up so others can see an erroneous, passive behavior.

Are you afraid the OP may feel sad after reading a direct and truthful comment? Do you feel sad for him?
I do. That's why I would like him to think about a solution that dignifies his effort. He only needs to put more effort and quit complaining. Actually, you both should be more rational.

hear hear...im starting to wonder if this story is fiction...*fishy eyebrow*

hear hear...im starting to wonder if this story is fiction...*fishy eyebrow*

Now my thoughts, exactly.

Threat to sue him if he does not confess that he was hired to do the DP job and now he wants credit for what he hasn't done.
Sometimes there's laws that contradict each other. OK, so maybe the DP legally owns the footage, but if the producer can prove (through emails, etc) that there was an agreement to release the movie and and do things a certain way maybe he can sue for breach of contract.

Right..well I'm being accused of this being a fictitious story now so I'll leave it. You're right though, there's only so much complaining I can do. I wouldn't say this is a common occurence as usually people sign forms to begin with. Also, if you're an employee the law changes to my side BUT freelance employment and working under monthly contracts with tax etc is apparently different. It just seems I've fallen in that hole in the road where he does have power to injunct a release.

Anyway, I feel there's more than enough information here to warn any filmaker out there in the UK and Canada of what to do and not to before you start shooting!

If there's any major breakthrough from my side which will either be me signing a deal giving him what he wants or finding a legal strategy to 'win' this then I'll update. Cheers for all the support anyway guys.

Right..well I'm being accused of this being a fictitious story now so I'll leave it. You're right though, there's only so much complaining I can do. I wouldn't say this is a common occurence as usually people sign forms to begin with. Also, if you're an employee the law changes to my side BUT freelance employment and working under monthly contracts with tax etc is apparently different. It just seems I've fallen in that hole in the road where he does have power to injunct a release.

Anyway, I feel there's more than enough information here to warn any filmaker out there in the UK and Canada of what to do and not to before you start shooting!

If there's any major breakthrough from my side which will either be me signing a deal giving him what he wants or finding a legal strategy to 'win' this then I'll update. Cheers for all the support anyway guys.

I heard that in London, judges sent to jail 17 year old boys for what they done to the country. So... the law may be highly flexible and is actually on your side. You just have to believe in justice and put a lot of effort to save your movie.
Good luck and please, update us for the good or the bad. :)

Right..well I'm being accused of this being a fictitious story now so I'll leave it.
Two people. The rest of us have supported you.

You are going to let those two push you away from this forum?

Make a movie about the subject. Good stuf jou know. Almost as good as that drama about that mexican boy that wanted to become a actor, but ended up a male prostitute....(I forgot the name of this film )

Make a movie about the subject. Good stuf jou know. Almost as good as that drama about that mexican boy that wanted to become a actor, but ended up a male prostitute....(I forgot the name of this film )

Wouldn't that be ironic: making a successful film about someone getting blackmailed on a film and then making a successful film out of it. Hmmm.....

Wouldn't that be ironic: making a successful film about someone getting blackmailed on a film and then making a successful film out of it. Hmmm.....

That's one of the reasons I mentioned 'Lost in la Mancha'. This is a dramatic making-of of the never finished Terry Gilliam feature called 'The man who shot Don Quichot'. Everything goed wrong, but it's a great documentary :P

That's one of the reasons I mentioned 'Lost in la Mancha'. This is a dramatic making-of of the never finished Terry Gilliam feature called 'The man who shot Don Quichot'. Everything goed wrong, but it's a great documentary :P

Lack of video footage of our production otherwise great idea!...I'll have a watch of that though :)

How did this resolve itself? What did you do.

Ps, there's nothing wrong with blogging about your experience and mentioning the real names because they essentially wrote the script. You're just a journalist. Just show valid "evidence" for report ;)

I'm going to court soon and wondering what this guy (under work for hire) will say about the footage I paid him to shoot (and which he subsequently lost or something - he's just not giving it to me. It's been awhillllle!)

Any advice?

I'm going to court soon
Federal court over a copyright issue?

no no no no, small claims!

no no no no, small claims!
I always thought copyrights were a Federal issue that could only be handled in Federal court.

I'm not sure how the issue of copyright got into my thread. I'm suing the dp i hired to shoot a short film (paid him already, no footage, not even the drive I gave him to dump the footage onto).

Any suggestions about THIS case?

Our court date is tomorrow morning at 8:30am. HA!

Any suggestions about THIS case?
Bring all evidence you have to demonstrate that there was a contract and what the terms of the contract were. Bring written contracts, bring emails, including the computer with the emails saved (example: saved in Mozilla Thunderbird). Bring a copy of a written ad that you may have placed looking for a DP. Bring phone answering machine messages that might help your case. Bring the receipt showing that you paid for the hard drive, paid him for his work, etc. Be prepared to refute lies. Defendants always lie in court.

I would obviously get an entertainment lawyer/solicitor. I didn't study law and don't know UK copyright laws. However, If you have registered a copyright then the original material should be yours. Therefore, he can not sell the filmed performance as his own. It would be like me filming the screenplay for "Forrest Gump" and then trying to release it. However, as I stated I don't have a law degree, so speak to someone that does!

But what if he refuses? That's my point, he has ownership of my film at the moment and could simply just walk away and say it's his and he directed it!

Agreed!

Find a good solicitor with experience in these matters and take the DP to court. Sue him for stealing copyrighted material (Hopefully you have the screenplay copyrighted) and "work-for-hire" infringements.

Make sure your script is copyrighted to have a case.

Emails do count as evidence in court. Email correspondance can help a lot.

There are two separate discussions. Regarding the small claims court, you are limited as to the amount you can get back. Even when you win, you can have a problem in collecting depending on how the judgement is worded.
For either case you want to show potential damages and loss of revenue in addition to what you paid the individual.

Thank you all for your help and advice. I did as you said and when the lousy "DP" didn't show up, I won by default. I won $4,220 in costs and damages (would have won more if I had another signature to confirm the floors were brand new before the "dp" sliced and diced them with his un-protected C-stands.

Anyways, thanks again and I'll check back here to see if anyone needs any help or if I hit a road bump in getting this judgement (I imagine it's a whole other set of hoops).

re: last reply - not sure how the judgement will be written. I literally just stepped out of court...


my email is misslovestolaugh@gmail.com if anyone is so inclined to follow-up...


Love from Los Angeles
-justanotherdumbactress

Make sure your script is copyrighted to have a case.
Emails do count as evidence in court. Email correspondance can help a lot.
Not copyrighting your script with the library of congress is not the end of the world. Save any evidence that you affixed it in a tangible form (ex- a Word document on a hard drive which shows date create, date last modified, etc).

Not copyrighting your script with the library of congress is not the end of the world. Save any evidence that you affixed it in a tangible form (ex- a Word document on a hard drive which shows date create, date last modified, etc).

I don't know much about IT, but aren't those date easily changed? For example if you set your clock on your computer to, say, 2007. Then you create a fresh document. Wouldn't the date created show "2007"?

Good Point. However, if you email the script to the actors then you would have a legitimate third party time stamp. I emailed my script to tons of actors when I was casting.

I don't know much about IT, but aren't those date easily changed? For example if you set your clock on your computer to, say, 2007. Then you create a fresh document. Wouldn't the date created show "2007"?

So eimajjjj what is the end of your movie story?
Did I skipped it in some of the posts?

Did you had to give up on your movie and credits etc?

Does anybody else knows the answer?

I contacted eimajjjj directly but I still didn't got any feedback from him.

How dod the tory ended?
Did he managed to save his movie?!