How I made money from music

gorillaonabike · Jun 22, 2011

I've seen plenty of threads on here complaining about film makers who aren't paying for compositions. Also, I have seen threads complaining that it's difficult to make money from music. I beg to differ and would suggest that composers / musicians who are complaining are either not good enough or are doing the wrong thing to market themselves. This comes from my own, personal experience of making money from music.

The first time I was paid for music was over 25 years ago when I was a young teenager and I didn't give a damn. I was too young and didn't realise that most of the musical world would have given their right arm for that kind of opportunity. Strangely, my parents did everything to stop me including not allowing me to leave the house when I was offered money to perform for a James Bond film, again while still in my teens. A few years later, still as a teenager, I managed to get out of the house and recorded for 'Man in Music,' a Channel Four documentary in the era when there were only five channels in the UK and viewing figures were in the millions.

I was decent enough to be paid to rehearse (yes, rehearsals are all paid for) and then perform in front of 3,500 paying punters plus they threw in food, drink etc... Even in my teens, at one point I was so busy that I was being paid every weekend for my musical skills.

I was good but not amazing by any stretch of the imagination. The reason I was constantly making money from my skills is because I ended up constantly meeting people who paid money to buy music.

Even when I went to Uni (to study business), I found a bar with a piano, played piano and the owner was impressed enough that he booked me every weekend I wanted to be there. Before I walked in there, the piano was just for decoration but after he heard my skills, he thought I could make him money. So he paid me money.

One guy I shared a stage with on numerous occasions as a teenager is now a composer, musician, author and an extremely wealthy guy. He uses 10 agents in different countries to market his work (if you don't have an agent, well let's just say you are making your life harder). He did this by being an incredible musician (much better than I ever was) and has nurtured his contacts over two decades.

Composers have to remember is if they approach people who aren't interested in paying money, they will not be paid money. However, if composers / musicians etc... approach people who actually pay money for music, well, guess what will happen. It's just common sense.

If you don't know how to hook up with people who buy music - well that's for you to figure it out but I'll give you a clue what not to do - don't leave it to the internet. Personally, I did it through going to an audition, demonstrating my technical skills and getting booked. This then put me in a position where I ended up meeting lots more people who wanted to pay money for music which meant I made money from rehearsing, performing and composing. Even today, I get the occasional offer and one of my contacts at the BBC recently offered me money to help out at a rehearsal and I've been off the circuit for over 20 years!!! It wasn't very much money and I actually rebuked my contact for coming to me with something which was beneath me but I suspect it's more money than some composers have ever made in their entire lives.

So all of this to say - if you're good enough - find people who will pay you, not amateur film makers like me. There are plenty of people out there who buy music but I'll start you off with a little clue - you have to go to them - if you're waiting for them to discover you via the internet, you're going to be waiting a very long time.

Zensteve · Jun 23, 2011

These are some interesting thoughts to reflect upon.

jpark · Jun 23, 2011

Yes, that seems easy to say, "just meet people who are ready to pay for your music".
The Internet is actually providing a space where you can see if your work is appreciated. The risk to lose one's property does exist but you need to check your creation's velue and get known before you can convince any of potentiel buyers to pay for your music...

Nevertheless, you look like a lucky guy and a talented one :rolleyes:

Good job, fellow

Papertwinproductions · Jun 23, 2011

Interesting.

Sounds more of "being in the right place, at the right time". As you haven't expressed that you hounded anybody for work, or searched high and low, nor have you said you're an exceptional talent. You're likely alot better than you think you are.

It's clear why you auditioned back then. Twenty years ago, the internet was being carted by two snails and a one legged toad.

The Internet is a platfom. It's easy to get lost. But it's revolutionised Business, and every economy for the rest of time. Networking via the internet shouldn't be discredited. It's monumental.

However, I entirely agree with you. Don't wait. Network outside. Go to meets. Audtions. Bars. Clubs. Venues. Choose a path that will open doors. Work to get work. Establish yourself as a musician.

That's advice everybody should listen to.

JoshL · Jun 23, 2011

Awesome story! Sounds like you've had a fun and interesting career! You've been very lucky, and particularly given the age you started, I'm sure you're much better of a musician than you give yourself credit for. And I agree that there are lots of ways to make money making music. The last synth I bought I entirely paid for by busking on my lunch break (sadly no longer have a job where I can do that, though I could go out in the evenings if I really wanted to). I've been paid for filling in for bands, and trying out for a local "top 40/cover" band is always an option. I've known a few people who have done that full-time.

That said, I think people here aren't just looking for a way to make money doing music; we're looking to become film composers. How do you do that? Well, lots of work for free, meaning you need a day job, and to push yourself to learn the skills you need every day. Part of that is promotion and networking (definitely one of my weaker points). Being a good composer is not the same as being a good musician, and those are both skills that you need to develop.

Getting an agent would be fantastic. Speaking to other film composers, they're kinda like record labels in pop music; they won't be interested in you until you can prove that you don't need them.

Anyway, good post, interesting thread. We're all here to learn from each other and share experiences. We're all in this together!

gorillaonabike · Jun 23, 2011

Papertwinproductions said:
Interesting.

Sounds more of "being in the right place, at the right time". As you haven't expressed that you hounded anybody for work, or searched high and low, nor have you said you're an exceptional talent. You're likely alot better than you think you are.

It's clear why you auditioned back then. Twenty years ago, the internet was being carted by two snails and a one legged toad.

The Internet is a platfom. It's easy to get lost. But it's revolutionised Business, and every economy for the rest of time. Networking via the internet shouldn't be discredited. It's monumental.

However, I entirely agree with you. Don't wait. Network outside. Go to meets. Audtions. Bars. Clubs. Venues. Choose a path that will open doors. Work to get work. Establish yourself as a musician.

That's advice everybody should listen to.

Right places - plural. The thing about successful navigating the first audition was that it introduced me to professionals who wanted to pay for music. The mentality is 'if W's hired you (Mr W was my first musical employer), then you must be OK, so come and do some stuff for me.' Occasionally, they didn't even hear me play a note but hired me on the basis I'd done some stuff for X, Y or Z (or they'd heard the stuff I'd done and vaguely remembered that it was OK). Once I was in, I didn't have to ask for work, it just sort of happened. You just end up meeting people all the time who want to give you cash for music.

Even the bar I ended up playing in - strangely, I did not ask for money. Rather, I played and the bar owner offered it. I said thanks, that's great but I guess I should've negotiated. I probably undersold myself because of that but hey, I didn't mind at the time.

Funnily enough, I never negotiated a fee, asked for cash or even discussed payment. Because I was with professionals who paid money for music, they would simply pay me and throw in food and drink. Doing it for free never even crossed their or my mind and their expectation was simply to pay, although bizarrely the live stuff was more regular and paid better than the recorded stuff (I always thought it would be the other way around...)

The crux of my experience is there are plenty of people out there who will pay for music. However, if a musician only does stuff for free then they will not get paid. And that doing a little paid work opens up the door to an avalanche of paid work (provided a musician gets themselves out there, talking to the right people etc...)

Bizarrely, making a career of music never even crossed my mind and I was not talented enough. I had a decent level of technical capability but not the musicianship and I remember being absolutely disgusted when I played with one guy who was an absolute "sshole. He was so much more talented than me - what he could do just blew me away and I realised just how average I was and just what genuine talent is.

However, he blew it because, well, he was painful to be around and the last time I saw him he was in a bad place. However, he has more talent in his little finger than I have in my whole body and I understand my musical limitations. Guys like him have the gift. I was just technical.

Some of the more gifted guys I used to hang out with became music or entertainment professionals but personally, I've let my level slide and I just tinker a bit these days - I play or compose just for pleasure. When I met my wife, the first time I played her a composition, she cried because it moved her. That's more than enough for me.

Papertwinproductions · Jun 23, 2011

gorillaonabike said:
Right places - plural. The thing about successful navigating the first audition was that it introduced me to professionals who wanted to pay for music. The mentality is 'if W's hired you (Mr W was my first musical employer), then you must be OK, so come and do some stuff for me.' Occasionally, they didn't even hear me play a note but hired me on the basis I'd done some stuff for X, Y or Z (or they'd heard the stuff I'd done and vaguely remembered that it was OK). Once I was in, I didn't have to ask for work, it just sort of happened. You just end up meeting people all the time who want to give you cash for music.

That the ideal. But it's not always the case. Especially given the immensity of the internet, and the plethora of composers that are at your fingertips with the click of a button.

There's always been choice. But it's never been so accessible. So now, before an audition, or before anybody is considered, the film-maker (or employer) will have seen every peirce of material from that person, before even meeting them.

That's why it's sometimes necessary to work for free. You have to beat the crowd. People hire via the internet. People can hire their entire crew without leaving their home. They can base everything on your previous work, failing to discover whether you're right person or not to work on the material with them.

That's just a factor of the time. If you're an artist, your work has to be accessible. Otherwise you're not considered.

The generation is pampered. We're lazy, and impatient.

Every decision should be a navigated one. One that pushes you a step closer to whatever it is you want to achieve. If that means working jobs for free, but MAKING SURE you're keeping your eyes on the goal, then that's what you do.

Network in the right places. That's what your experience screams.

You've done well, bud! I hope all the composers on IT, take note. Inspiring stuff.

gorillaonabike · Jun 23, 2011

Papertwinproductions said:
That the ideal. But it's not always the case. Especially given the immensity of the internet, and the plethora of composers that are at your fingertips with the click of a button.

There's always been choice. But it's never been so accessible. So now, before an audition, or before anybody is considered, the film-maker (or employer) will have seen every peirce of material from that person, before even meeting them.

That's why it's sometimes necessary to work for free. You have to beat the crowd. People hire via the internet. People can hire their entire crew without leaving their home. They can base everything on your previous work, failing to discover whether you're right person or not to work on the material with them.

That's just a factor of the time. If you're an artist, your work has to be accessible. Otherwise you're not considered.

The generation is pampered. We're lazy, and impatient.

Every decision should be a navigated one. One that pushes you a step closer to whatever it is you want to achieve. If that means working jobs for free, but MAKING SURE you're keeping your eyes on the goal, then that's what you do.

Network in the right places. That's what your experience screams.

You've done well, bud! I hope all the composers on IT, take note. Inspiring stuff.

It wasn't a career, just something I did as a teen. Bizarrely, I did not appreciate it as it all happened so naturally and none of it felt particularly 'special,' even performing live because it happened so often. Although maybe the one which felt 'wow' was because the standard of the musical director was amazing - just outstanding. He taught me a huge amount in a very short space of time.

And at a certain point I knew I wasn't good enough - well, maybe I'd have spent a career playing cruise ships, hotels or maybe at best an accompanist or working in rehearsal rooms but it wasn't my thing. I have a very small business which is my career.

However, I want to test the waters with film making. I want to make some shorts and then go onto a feature. Who knows, maybe I won't do the music myself - I might even need a composer...

Michael Allen · Jun 23, 2011

gorillaonabike said:
It wasn't a career, just something I did as a teen. Bizarrely, I did not appreciate it as it all happened so naturally and none of it felt particularly 'special,' even performing live because it happened so often. Although maybe the one which felt 'wow' was because the standard of the musical director was amazing - just outstanding. He taught me a huge amount in a very short space of time.

And at a certain point I knew I wasn't good enough - well, maybe I'd have spent a career playing cruise ships, hotels or maybe at best an accompanist or working in rehearsal rooms but it wasn't my thing. I have a very small business which is my career.

However, I want to test the waters with film making. I want to make some shorts and then go onto a feature. Who knows, maybe I won't do the music myself - I might even need a composer...

Would it be a paid position?

Papertwinproductions · Jun 24, 2011

gorillaonabike said:
However, I want to test the waters with film making. I want to make some shorts and then go onto a feature. Who knows, maybe I won't do the music myself - I might even need a composer...

Well, you couldn't be in a better place to learn.

Best of luck!

Synia · Jun 24, 2011

Just to balance the thread a little, i'd just like to add there's always two sides to things.

Too often, we focus on how to market ourselves, how to get it out there, how to meet the right people, say the right things. But the other side is, we just have to be decent with our skills.

You yourself obviously can't possibily be bad, and everyone saw SOMETHING in you. Maybe you not the most talented guy out there, but you must have been pretty good in order to stand out at your first audition. And afterwards, all the work you've done must have been satisfactory to say the least.

gorillaonabike · Jun 24, 2011

Synia said:
Just to balance the thread a little, i'd just like to add there's always two sides to things.

Too often, we focus on how to market ourselves, how to get it out there, how to meet the right people, say the right things. But the other side is, we just have to be decent with our skills.

You yourself obviously can't possibily be bad, and everyone saw SOMETHING in you. Maybe you not the most talented guy out there, but you must have been pretty good in order to stand out at your first audition. And afterwards, all the work you've done must have been satisfactory to say the least.

I 'was' OK in terms of skills (I'm no longer OK, my skill level is strictly amateur now) and you are right, I had good 'technical' skills. For the audition, I was a reserve but got bumped up a couple of levels beyond my station. I wasn't strictly good enough but got moved up in the pecking order as I improved quickly and was reliable.

But yes, a decent skill level has to be there and I wholeheartedly agree that there has to be a reasonable skill level in place for there to be value.

rocksure · Jun 27, 2011

Papertwinproductions said:
That's why it's sometimes necessary to work for free. You have to beat the crowd. People hire via the internet. People can hire their entire crew without leaving their home. They can base everything on your previous work, failing to discover whether you're right person or not to work on the material with them.

.

If you must work for free sometimes as you say, is that not by and large just going to keep you in the company of people who want stuff " free" or at best cheaply? I think you get more respect from people generally if you believe what you do is worth being paid for, and you therefore you won't do freebies.
That doesn't apply to doing things for friends, family or for charities where you may want to give your time freely though ofcourse.
I have found generally however, in arts and music people are expecting to get things for free or really cheaply more now than they were a few years ago. This gets perpetuated because of the number of musicans/composers who are prepared to do it for free or ridiculously cheaply.

Papertwinproductions · Jun 27, 2011

rocksure said:
If you must work for free sometimes as you say, is that not by and large just going to keep you in the company of people who want stuff " free" or at best cheaply? I think you get more respect from people generally if you believe what you do is worth being paid for, and you therefore you won't do freebies.
That doesn't apply to doing things for friends, family or for charities where you may want to give your time freely though ofcourse.
I have found generally however, in arts and music people are expecting to get things for free or really cheaply more now than they were a few years ago. This gets perpetuated because of the number of musicans/composers who are prepared to do it for free or ridiculously cheaply.

This confirms my statement. It's the power of the internet. The power of artists being able to communicate, on a scale that was unimaginable ten years ago. There are endless pools of talent that are readily accessible.

As for the former. I wouldn't say that to begin with, working for free is a bad idea at all. But dig a little deeper into what that entails.

Would it keep you in the company of the pool of "low to no pay"? That depends on the artist. It depends on YOUR judgement of the people you've chosen to work for, for no pay. Collaboration is as much about EXPERIENCE as it is seeing ahead, and judging, is this going to go anywhere? Am I working, am I in the company of somebody that is going to further my career?

It's those details, that are a constant.

I don't believe pay brings respect. I'd sooner trust my crew, honour the material, and give the best I could, than seek morals in a pay cheque.

It's always about decision making.

Do I take the job that pays the standard pay, but isn't really in the genre that I want to work within, and I don't really like the people?

Or

Do I stomach working for expenses, knowing that there's something about this crew, there's promise, the prospect of working on the material is exciting, and could lead to big things?

There's paying bills. There's family involved. There's buying food. All of these details are taken into account everytime a decision is made.

The "company", the paying or the non-paying, are made up of individuals, all of whom make decisions depending on what is best for them.

That's trusting yourself, and your judgement. If you can't decipher between an open road, and a dead end, and at the same tine, be willing to take a fall, then this isn't the business for you.

Deniz Akbulut · Jun 27, 2011

Very interesting thread indeed.

You're pretty lucky to meet such people. Most directors in the internet today wouldn't pay for music because there are so many composers there, who are gladly doing it for free.
I think if you make music for free, directors won't take you seriously and nobody is going to pay you even in the future.

In your age, my music sure was pretty crap and I didn't even expected to get paid for it.
And now? The internet does not feed me with jobs and I will maybe get to work with some people when I studied musical composition and met other learning directors in real life. And that will be in like 8 years.
But hey, composing for films is a very risky job. And experience/talent and especially luck are the main factors.

Oh, I am not even sure if talent is a main factor. In my opinion, much of today's film music in recent blockbusters is made very poorly. :\

Markus S · Jun 27, 2011

Papertwinproductions said:
That's why it's sometimes necessary to work for free. You have to beat the crowd.

Well, I am sorry, but working for free is certainly not beating the crowd, in a place where everyone is ready to work for free. (If that is what you mean)

If you want to get paid, here is a simple rule :

Do not accept unpaid work.

It may seem stupid, but it is as true as it is simple. If you do not accept unpaid work, you are not losing money since you wouldn't have been paid anyway. While you are not working on an unpaid project you can :

1. work on your art, make it professional, push it to it's limits.

2. find paid work.

You may think you need the credit. Sorry, unless you are doing the next unexpected new comer hit (you could also play the lottery in this case) the credit will not get you far.

You need the upcoming projects? If they are not payed either, you do not need them.

You are promised to get paid on the next project (if the budget is there)? Sorry, no guarantee here, it may never happen.

You need to get a feeling for what your talent is worth. Fix yourself a price, how much is your work, your time, your knowledge worth? If you do you will not feel comfortable in working for free anyway.

I also agree that if you are paid nothing the perceived value of your work is nothing. Simple as that. 100*nothing=nothing. 200.000*nothing, still nothing. You do not earn any respect from your "employer" if you work for nothing, at least from my very limited experience as composer on no budget projects. In example, I did the music for a first short film almost 10 years ago, great project, no pay (they even asked for complete buy-out - music should appear in no other film). When I understood there WAS money I asked to get paid and got fired - they didn't even care to tell me I had to ask why there were no news from them. The film is STILL not released and I have been making a good living as music composer since then (including good money for the score I made for them). So, what did I miss?

IMO the only valid reasons to work for free are : You are doing a good friend a favor. You love the project so much, you just do it "for yourself" - maybe you are even co-writer for this project, maybe you have 100% artistic liberty, that may be something to consider.

Deniz Akbulut · Jun 27, 2011

Markus S said:
Well, I am sorry, but working for free is certainly not beating the crowd, in a place where everyone is ready to work for free. (If that is what you mean)

If you want to get paid, here is a simple rule :

Do not accept unpaid work.

It may seem stupid, but it is as true as it is simple. If you do not accept unpaid work, you are not losing money since you wouldn't have been paid anyway. While you are not working on an unpaid project you can :

1. work on your art, make it professional, push it to it's limits.

2. find paid work.

You may think you need the credit. Sorry, unless you are doing the next unexpected new comer hit (you could also play the lottery in this case) the credit will not get you far.

You need the upcoming projects? If they are not payed either, you do not need them.

You are promised to get paid on the next project (if the budget is there)? Sorry, no guarantee here, it may never happen.

You need to get a feeling for what your talent is worth. Fix yourself a price, how much is your work, your time, your knowledge worth? If you do you will not feel comfortable in working for free anyway.

I also agree that if you are paid nothing the perceived value of your work is nothing. Simple as that. 100*nothing=nothing. 200.000*nothing, still nothing. You do not earn any respect from your "employer" if you work for nothing, at least from my very limited experience as composer on no budget projects. In example, I did the music for a first short film almost 10 years ago, great project, no pay (they even asked for complete buy-out - music should appear in no other film). When I understood there WAS money I asked to get paid and got fired - they didn't even care to tell me I had to ask why there were no news from them. The film is STILL not released and I have been making a good living as music composer since then (including good money for the score I made for them). So, what did I miss?

IMO the only valid reasons to work for free are : You are doing a good friend a favor. You love the project so much, you just do it "for yourself" - maybe you are even co-writer for this project, maybe you have 100% artistic liberty, that may be something to consider.

That's a pretty good guideline. I will remember this one. Thanks!

Papertwinproductions · Jun 27, 2011

Markus S said:
Well, I am sorry, but working for free is certainly not beating the crowd, in a place where everyone is ready to work for free. (If that is what you mean)

If you want to get paid, here is a simple rule :

Do not accept unpaid work.

It may seem stupid, but it is as true as it is simple. If you do not accept unpaid work, you are not losing money since you wouldn't have been paid anyway. While you are not working on an unpaid project you can :

1. work on your art, make it professional, push it to it's limits.

2. find paid work.

.

Interesting.

The bold part, may I add. Where are you gaining the experience in making your work "professional"? Where are you learning exactly what it takes to compose on a film-project?

And most of all, are you being paid for this?

I would suggest that you learn your craft whilst within a project. Rather than practising your craft in the comfort of your home, without deadlines, needs, asks, constant rearrangements.

I'm in no way telling composers to work for free for the rest of their lives. Nor for any such extensive period. It's a judge of character. It's growing. It's YOUR judgement to see the possibility within an unpaid job. Does the client have previous paid casts? Is their reel impressive? Do they have a following? Any interest? Any previously private/corp investment?

Context is everything.

"Unpaid" spells dead-end for most, possibility (To learn, to gain the experience, the discover whether they're truely cut out for it) for others.

There are paid roles out there.

People still purchase CD's, rather than getting them for free.
They still go to the cinema, rather than watching it for free.

It's about content, and your judgement.

Unpaid can lead to paid work.
Paid work can lead to no work.
Paid work can lead to more paid work.
Unpaid can lead to further no paid work.

It's decision making. There's no certainty what will come after. Everything is a risk. But it doesn't rule out the importance of gaining experience.

But at the beginning of a career, would I dismiss the value of unpaid work?

I don't believe so.

LastChancey · Jun 27, 2011

@gorillaonabike

Totally agree. For around 5 years, I was a drummer/percussionist in the LA area, and although I wasn't THAT great (I could and still can hold my own, but nothing like some of the guys living in their mother's basement and posting 13-minute solos on Youtube), I pursued private lessons by increasingly proficient teachers. I started small, and caught on fast. When I got to the music-school level and had been studying music theory long enough, I went to a university in LA and paid top dollar for lessons from a studio great... not necessarily famous, but a total professional who played on the soundtracks for the Ocean's Eleven series, The Bourne Supremacy, and a dozen sitcoms and cartoons.
I was paying a LOT for how good I was, but it's worth it when you're schmoozing with some of the best players in the world. Just to overhear conversations, album recommendations, and shake hands is worth more money than most of what you'll get out of your lessons. I was able to play in a LOT of professional situations and make a healthy amount of money for my age simply because of the people I associated myself with.
I got a great scholarship for the jazz/composing program in a LA-area music school with a reputation for producing studio players, but decided to turn it down in favor of pursuing missionary work in East Africa.

My point is: being around the right people is absolutely the best way to not only cultivate opportunities, but also to cultivate your skills. That's why I frequent Indietalk, in fact, because in East Africa there's not a lot of dedicated cinematic masters sitting around.

Markus S · Jun 27, 2011

Papertwinproductions said:
The bold part, may I add. Where are you gaining the experience in making your work "professional"? Where are you learning exactly what it takes to compose on a film-project?

And most of all, are you being paid for this?

It is fascinating how often unpaid work is getting the credit of the learning experience. I'm not directing this at you personally (as I don't know you or your work), but professional work is an incredibly great learning experience. You work in a real project, with people who do this for a living and you even get paid for it. And it never stops : Every new project is a challenge and a new learning experience, so there is no need to wait until you know everything to get into a professional project.

What do I mean by perfecting your art?

You are offering a product for a market. This product is custom music (including production). Is your product ready yet? Is your orchestra balanced correctly? Is your rock mix tight? Do you have a coherent musical form? A good theme (depending on style)? Do you stand out musically in any way?

If your product is not good enough yet, work on it until you consider it is good enough to be commercially released. If it is not good enough, why would someone pay for it?

Then find people (markets, projects) who are willing to pay you, and who CAN pay you. These people do make money from their art, be it in film, games, commercials, library music, where ever.

The problem with working for free, is that it may side track you, get you away from the aim of producing commercial music, it may get you into circles of people who work constantly for free (nothing wrong with that, if the aim is not commercial), these projects may use up out your time and your energy, while you could focus on more prosperous markets and develop your "commercial potential" in your art.

Of course I am replying to the original post : If you WANT to get paid, make a living from music that is, get the product right, and bring it to the right people (market it correctly) and do not accept unpaid work. If you are in there for the fun, none of this applies of course.