Some company needs a sound designer for no pay but credit. 
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tfr/2136858028.html
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tfr/2136858028.html
More Craig's List slave labor
- Thread starter Blade_Jones
- Start date
I get a dozen phone calls and emails a week requesting free or close to free work. After all, it's just audio; you don't see it so it doesn't cost anything, right?
That looks like the producer is looking at someone in film school learning Pro Tools looking for a film credit with an outside production. They're not asking for people with any great degree of experience.
Looks more like they blew the whole wad on production and forgot about audio post. That happens quite frequently.
Don't try to tell them that 2/3 of video is audio.
I see a lot of these where they mix their movie through a student's big beefy studio speakers but never bother to monitor it through a cheap "Mr Crappy" TV speaker, then their final mix can only be turned up to 3 otherwise it starts to distort.
Very true!
When your entire budget is practically nothing, saving 1/2 or 2/3 of that nothing for audio post probably slipped their mind.
Remembering you set out to drain the swamp is hard when you're up to your ass in alligators.
Cheers!
-Charles
Last edited:
That's where bartering goods and services with other filmmakers comes in. Do freebies with another filmmaker in exchange for something they can help you with for free in your next production. 
...and I was once told that I was "very generous" for paying everyone except myself" on Gun Town.
Just imagine the results had I NOT paid anyone?
Just imagine the results had I NOT paid anyone?
I'm not sure these posts are of the feeble mind. Perhaps it's fickle to assume that collaboration is a one-way street, or that anybody would/should be willing to work for free without some kind of pre-agreed promise of future work, or further counter-collaboration.
I just think the approach is wrong, not the intent.
I just think the approach is wrong, not the intent.
Is this really unacceptable? I would have thought a lot of indie movies, especially the ‘no-budget’ kind, would be produced on this kind of teamwork?
Of course, if I were making a no-budget film, I wouldn’t propose that people work for free. I’d ask people to work for a deferred payment, a percentage of all profits made from the movie. If it’s a small crew, say twenty people, if the film ever sells, everybody gets 5% of the money earned. Plus, that way, everybody has their name on the credits of a produced film, that has actually been distributed. You’d obviously have to warn people that they may never be paid if the film doesn’t sell! The crew you assemble would need to be passionate and happy to work for free. It's up to the individual if this is for them. I thought that was the way a lot of people worked?
Is that bad? Is it wrong to even suggest doing this?
Of course, if I were making a no-budget film, I wouldn’t propose that people work for free. I’d ask people to work for a deferred payment, a percentage of all profits made from the movie. If it’s a small crew, say twenty people, if the film ever sells, everybody gets 5% of the money earned. Plus, that way, everybody has their name on the credits of a produced film, that has actually been distributed. You’d obviously have to warn people that they may never be paid if the film doesn’t sell! The crew you assemble would need to be passionate and happy to work for free. It's up to the individual if this is for them. I thought that was the way a lot of people worked?
Is that bad? Is it wrong to even suggest doing this?
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to ask for people to collaborate for free. I think it's a little unfair to criticise them for asking; if there's a possibility of saving money by working with someone in a no pay collaboration then why not at least try?
If no one replies then no one replies and your point is proven that it's an unrealistic demand. But if I was a young sound recordist then these sort of gigs would be my bread and butter. What I agree with PTP about is that if I was taking on a job like this for free then I'd want assurances that this could turn into a fruitful collaboration and not simply me turning up for the job, getting a credit and then being waved goodbye to. Collaborations should be creative and productive for all parties.
If no one replies then no one replies and your point is proven that it's an unrealistic demand. But if I was a young sound recordist then these sort of gigs would be my bread and butter. What I agree with PTP about is that if I was taking on a job like this for free then I'd want assurances that this could turn into a fruitful collaboration and not simply me turning up for the job, getting a credit and then being waved goodbye to. Collaborations should be creative and productive for all parties.
I'm going to put my two cents in with the other Brits on this one… if they can find someone who likes the project and wants the experience, where's the harm in asking? They're not asking for someone with a massive showreel or full-blown studio, just someone who wants to learn.
This.
I know the advent of Craigslist makes all of these little collaborations more visibile, but really it's nothing new. I had to turn down an internship at a recording studio many, many years ago because they wanted someone FULL TIME for no money. Working maddening hours as a sla.. er intern.. for no money and even less respect is, for better or worse, a staple of this business and has been as long as it has been a business.
What people need to stop doing is thinking of Craigslist as a "jobs" site. Sure, occasionally shows will crew up on the List - but more often jobs are word of mouth recommendations, repeat business (hired back by the same folks), or on other sites like Mandy, Media Match, or just not posted online at all.
Craigslist is great for collaborations of all shapes and sizes, but we would all do well to remember that not all of those shapes or sizes will fit with our current place in the industry.
The other side of this coin is that, yeah, there are a lot of asshats out there on the List who do exactly as Alcove described - try to get as much for free as they can. Usually the differences are easy to spot in the posts.
Honestly, to call it "slave labor" to ask for free help is a bit ridiculous. Almost everyone has helped out someone else for free on a project. I solicit free help as editorial assistants every single year, and will again this year.
Looking for volunteers is nothing like being a "slave". It's insulting to compare involuntary forced labor to asking for help without pay. Ask anyone who's heritage have ever been actual slaves. They might find it extremely inappropriate to make the comparison.
Not every project has the money to pay everyone. Using Craigslist to make your needs known is hardly a nefarious act, especially since they are honest and up front that it is for no pay in the ad.
What exactly is wrong with that?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
and sound is sooooooo unimportant to film. It's the lowest priority because you don't see it, so who cares what it sounds like? If each camera angle has different room tone, no one will notice because the writing and acting are soooooooo amazing, right?
Looking for volunteers is nothing like being a "slave". It's insulting to compare involuntary forced labor to asking for help without pay. Ask anyone who's heritage have ever been actual slaves. They might find it extremely inappropriate to make the comparison.
Not every project has the money to pay everyone. Using Craigslist to make your needs known is hardly a nefarious act, especially since they are honest and up front that it is for no pay in the ad.
What exactly is wrong with that?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
and sound is sooooooo unimportant to film. It's the lowest priority because you don't see it, so who cares what it sounds like? If each camera angle has different room tone, no one will notice because the writing and acting are soooooooo amazing, right?
Just to add a little fuel to the fire... Did anyone go to the website of the aforementioned ad? Did anyone check out the IMDB credits of anyone involved with the project?
The IMDB credits are impressive for quite a few of the cast and crew. Not big names and big productions, but solid experience. I would guess that at least the key crew were paid, and possibly some of the cast. Quite a bit was spent on doing things right if the trailer and website give any clues.
Now, I know that I am biased being an audio post guy, but audio post production is the only post craft that requires - not needs but requires - specially built rooms and large amounts of real-time processing to accomplish its job properly. These requirements are expensive. My room is not Dolby or THX certified, it's not even 5.1; yet just sound isolation and treatment cost me over $20k, the speakers over $2k. A certified dubbing (mixing) facility can cost many hundreds of thousands; the speakers alone can cost more than my entire facility.
I'm sure that they found someone to take on the job, but I would lay odds that they are not going to get the quality that they put into the rest of the project. And that's my point if you follow the precept that "Sound is half of the experience."
The IMDB credits are impressive for quite a few of the cast and crew. Not big names and big productions, but solid experience. I would guess that at least the key crew were paid, and possibly some of the cast. Quite a bit was spent on doing things right if the trailer and website give any clues.
Now, I know that I am biased being an audio post guy, but audio post production is the only post craft that requires - not needs but requires - specially built rooms and large amounts of real-time processing to accomplish its job properly. These requirements are expensive. My room is not Dolby or THX certified, it's not even 5.1; yet just sound isolation and treatment cost me over $20k, the speakers over $2k. A certified dubbing (mixing) facility can cost many hundreds of thousands; the speakers alone can cost more than my entire facility.
I'm sure that they found someone to take on the job, but I would lay odds that they are not going to get the quality that they put into the rest of the project. And that's my point if you follow the precept that "Sound is half of the experience."
You always get what you pay for. Well, there's a killer deal here and there, but basically you always get what you pay for.
People ask actors all the time for free stuff for independent work and they're the "face" of the movie. Not saying that they're the single most important, everything plays a part so when anything lacks, everything lacks.
When you're honest up front, nothing wrong asking for free stuff, but you get what you pay for.
People ask actors all the time for free stuff for independent work and they're the "face" of the movie. Not saying that they're the single most important, everything plays a part so when anything lacks, everything lacks.
When you're honest up front, nothing wrong asking for free stuff, but you get what you pay for.
Exactly. I think the crux of the matter is that I'm talking about a different, admittedly less common, scenario from the one in the sample ad.
Reading that ad I can tell it's pretty much exactly as your interpretation would state. The dude blew his wad without thinking about it and is going to have a crappy post mix as a result.
That's the common side of the List; which is why I always say that one should not think of it as a site to find jobs. It's worth a peek to see if something good is happening, but by and large the gigs there are cut-rate at best, complete cluster-intercoourse-sessions at worst. The latter scenario is by far the most common on the List, and the jack-wagon that posted the ad linked here is no exception.
Having said that I'll see your fuel and raise you a stiff, fire feeding breeze.
Craigslist has it uses, as does donating your time to projects on a very selective basis. It should be done with specific goals in mind if you are going to get involved with people you haven't worked with before. Example:
I frequently work for a guy that runs a small production house the Bay Area. Lots and lots of corporate video work. One of my most reliable gigs actually, looking at long term history.
Once upon a time he had a short film side project that he wanted to direct. A producer friend of his (a real one, not some poser) brought him some script that they really loved and already had actors in mind.
They needed a 1st AC, but there was no budget for one. There was barely a budget for the project at all. He posts on Craigslist, I respond because I'm at my transition point where I am working paid PA gigs, but wanting to get more credits in the camera department where I really want to be. We chat for a bit, I come to his office, do a prep day and see what his company is all about. I do the shoot day, work 14 hours - unpaid - say "Thanks very much for the day, was great working with everyone," and head home.
A couple weeks later I get a phone call from him, "Hey David, are you available on day X, and by the way, what's your day rate?" That was a couple years ago now, and I continue to pull work from him, a lot. We also just did a music video last november for his band on which many of the crew were volunteers. We've had some interesting conversations the last few times we've worked. Certain aspects of his goals are turning out to be very convenient for me and approaching my goals.
All because I responded to what a lot of people in this thread would have called a "slave labor" ad.
Now here's an extension:
By virtue of that connection, I repeatedly worked with a grip who I sort of knew from a feature where I was a key pa/coordinator. He also ACs and is an unmitigated bad-ass. After a while he asked me if I was available to sub for him on this show that he ACs. That job puts me next to an incredible DP with tons of experience and very well respected in this area. That's also turned into a very good repeat job.
Which, by the way, has netted me two other shows by virtue of people I met working on that show. In fact, when I phone interviewed for my current gig, the line producer even said to me, "We're very interested in working with you, I see that you have assisted for <Insert DP name here>. We tried to get him for our show but he wasn't available"
Anyone noticing a pattern here?
Craig's list is where you go to roll the dice and try to make some new contacts, or make a semi-lateral shift between crew departments. It's not where you find jobs. The people you meet are where you find the jobs.
The trick, as Alcove smartly implies, is being able to suss out when you are reading an ad from a jack-wagon, or when you are reading an ad for a legit passion project that is going to get you actual real work down the road. Evaluating the PIE. That's what it's all about. Almost everyone I've ever met in this business did some amount of unpaid work early in their career. Many still donate their time to certain projects, or at the very least provide their services at a rather steep discount. Of course most of those interactions happen outside of CL because the people already know each other, but still.
Edit:
I want to add a short bit about the other side of the coin. People who show up for these side projects with a ton of "Well, I'm not getting paid, so I'm doing you a favor" attitude's generally don't get the call for paid work when it comes around. Folks who bust their ass no matter the day rate (or its absence), who aren't trying to be the smartest guy/gal in the room, who don't bitch about the long day, who are generally pleasant to be around, who know their job and can do it well under pressure. Those are the ones that get the calls back. This biz is a two way street, and yeah there are a TON of jack-wagons. But there are also a ton of great people who love the work, and sometimes they need a few extra hands they can't actually afford.
Fortunately though, those folks are smart enough to know that putting money into the post audio mix is right up there with paying with any other "key" crew.
Last edited:
I'm more bothered when people advertise for 'unpaid internships.'
By law, internships must either pay money or provide education and training as well as school credit.
Many people out there advertise for interns but really all they want is an unpaid gofer. Just be honest in your ads.
By law, internships must either pay money or provide education and training as well as school credit.
Many people out there advertise for interns but really all they want is an unpaid gofer. Just be honest in your ads.