Frame rate & Iso for DSLR

Y

yummydonkey

Let me know if I got this wrong...

frame rate setting on DSLR determines how blurry fast action would record.

&

iso setting mainly used to compensate lighting situation. ie using high iso for low light. & using native iso reduces noise.

Am I horribly wrong about this?

Also, is there an adaptor or filter for decreasing DOF? I had 28mm w/ fully open apature, and it wasnt shallow enough; I guess it's not just possible w/ wide angle lens?
 
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Not quite - the shutter speed determines how motion blur looks. The frame rate limits the shutter seeds you can choose from (if you were shooting at 50fps, you couldn't have a shutter speed slower than 1/50), but the frame rate will affect the look of motion in general.

Yes, ISO is film speed, so faster speeds (higher numbers) are used in lower light shots. There seems to be a bit of debate about how much of a difference using native ISO makes - I tend not to worry about it to be honest.

Wider angle lenses have deeper depth of field, that's just the physics of it. If it's wide open there's not really anything you can do to the camera, though it may be useful to know that depth of field gets shallower the closer the focal plane is to the camera.
 
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There's some interesting info out there about native iso and effectively "native" color temp. Been reading a little about the latter. Same sort of debate with a lean towards shooting CMOS at daylight being preferable to tungsten. After a point it is sort of academic, although many folks are displeased with the "in-between" iso settings on some dslr cameras.
 
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yummydonkey said:
Let me know if I got this wrong...

frame rate setting on DSLR determines how blurry fast action would record.

&

iso setting mainly used to compensate lighting situation. ie using high iso for low light. & using native iso reduces noise.

Am I horribly wrong about this?

Also, is there an adaptor or filter for decreasing DOF? I had 28mm w/ fully open apature, and it wasnt shallow enough; I guess it's not just possible w/ wide angle lens?
Click to expand...

Ehh, yeah, you're wrong, but I woulnd't say "horribly". As chilipie mentioned, it's shutter-speed that determines the amount of motion-blur. Me? I feel like you're safe between 1/50-1/80, but I'm that crazy guy you might not wanna listen to. Ernest says you should stay at 1/60.

I just shot a feature with ALL of the outside scenes at 1/100. I know, that's crazy, but I had my reason (was putting wide DOF first). I guess only time will tell if this worked, but in my opinion, having seen all the footage, there is only one brief moment, when the shutter-speed is distractingly too-fast.

Anyway, as far as ISO is concerned, I personally balk at going as high as 1600, and have only ever resorted to higher in the most desperate of times (the graininess huge).

Yes, there is a filter for acheiving a more shallow depth of field; I'm surprised I'm the one mentioning it. You want a neutral density filter. This darkens the image, without changing the color, allowing you to open your aperture wider. I suppose the reason it hasn't been previously mentioned is because you already stated that you've got your aperture at it's widest.

Like chili said, get a 50mm, or 100mm, or some other non-wide prime, and that'll get the shallow DOF you seek.
 
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Oh wow so 30 iso is bad huh? Been shooting everything on that, didnt know it!

btw, I've been watching this wicked 28mm f/1.4 on ebay! Finally closed at 2 grand. Too rich for my blood, but how fantastic would have that been! :(
 
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yummydonkey said:
Oh wow so 30 iso is bad huh? Been shooting everything on that, didnt know it!

btw, I've been watching this wicked 28mm f/1.4 on ebay! Finally closed at 2 grand. Too rich for my blood, but how fantastic would have that been! :(
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30 ISO? You sure you don't mean 1/30th shutter speed? Yes, 1/30th is bad.

Methinks you could benefit from a handy beginners tutorial. Heerrrrre I come to save the daaaaay! ;)

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=25092
 
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We use a 7D on all of our shoots. We've done a lot of research and and from experience, this is what we've learned:

Set your shutter speed to double your frame rate. That means if you're shooting 24p, your frame rate should be 50 (Because they don't offer 48). If you're shooting 30p, it should be set to 60, and if you're shooting 60p it should be set to 120.

Now, force your aperture to be a notch or two smaller than open. If you're using a 1.4 lens, run it at 1.5 or 1.6. If it's a 2.0 lens, run it at 2.2, etc. If you raise your aperture to accommodate for light, you're killing the purpose of using a DSLR for video. You're taking a nice lens and forcing it to behave like a cheap built-on lens.

From here, set your iso to accommodate for brightness, but keep it between 100 and 800. Up to 1600 is ok, but expect some noise. To help minimize noise in general, run in expanded iso settings that are multiples of 160. 160, 320, 480 etc. The way the camera handles the expanded isos actually minimizes noise (There's less at 160 then 100), and there's lots of tests to prove that.

Now, if you're running f/1.6 in daylight, even a 100 iso is too bright. Use a ND filter to darken the image. Variable ones are nice, you can dial it in exactly. If you absolutely have to, up the shutter speed, but that's going to decrease the overall look.

Now, if you do all of these things and are running at an ISO of 1600 and it's still too DARK, you need more light or a faster lens.

Anyway, I know a good DP will have his own opinions, but again, from our experience this is the way to get the best video out of your DSLR.
 
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PaulGriffith said:
We use a 7D on all of our shoots. We've done a lot of research and and from experience, this is what we've learned:

Set your shutter speed to double your frame rate. That means if you're shooting 24p, your frame rate should be 50 (Because they don't offer 48). If you're shooting 30p, it should be set to 60, and if you're shooting 60p it should be set to 120.

Now, force your aperture to be a notch or two smaller than open. If you're using a 1.4 lens, run it at 1.5 or 1.6. If it's a 2.0 lens, run it at 2.2, etc. If you raise your aperture to accommodate for light, you're killing the purpose of using a DSLR for video. You're taking a nice lens and forcing it to behave like a cheap built-on lens.

From here, set your iso to accommodate for brightness, but keep it between 100 and 800. Up to 1600 is ok, but expect some noise. To help minimize noise in general, run in expanded iso settings that are multiples of 160. 160, 320, 480 etc. The way the camera handles the expanded isos actually minimizes noise (There's less at 160 then 100), and there's lots of tests to prove that.

Now, if you're running f/1.6 in daylight, even a 100 iso is too bright. Use a ND filter to darken the image. Variable ones are nice, you can dial it in exactly. If you absolutely have to, up the shutter speed, but that's going to decrease the overall look.

Now, if you do all of these things and are running at an ISO of 1600 and it's still too DARK, you need more light or a faster lens.

Anyway, I know a good DP will have his own opinions, but again, from our experience this is the way to get the best video out of your DSLR.
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That is some really good advice. However, if I can offer one point of contention, it seems to me like you're arguing that we should ALWAYS use a shallow depth of field when shooting DSLR. Actually, a lot of people, yours truly included, have argued that the depth of field pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme. We used to not be able to use this tool, and now that we've got it, EVERYTHING has to have shallow focus.

I'm not with that. I like having this tool at my disposal. But that doesn't mean I always have to use it. Wide depth of field also has it's purposes. I like f8, and above, for most of my shots, but hey, that's just me.
 
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Cracker Funk said:
That is some really good advice. However, if I can offer one point of contention, it seems to me like you're arguing that we should ALWAYS use a shallow depth of field when shooting DSLR. Actually, a lot of people, yours truly included, have argued that the depth of field pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme. We used to not be able to use this tool, and now that we've got it, EVERYTHING has to have shallow focus.

I'm not with that. I like having this tool at my disposal. But that doesn't mean I always have to use it. Wide depth of field also has it's purposes. I like f8, and above, for most of my shots, but hey, that's just me.
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I'll agree with you, for a different reason. ;)

Most glass looks the best in the just open from f4 to just closed from 5.6 range. Some glass has a nice bokeh when wide open, but an entire show show WFO doesn't do it for me either. Focus is, as CF points out, a tool. Sometimes you want the shotgun (f11, everything sharp), sometimes you want the sniper rife (WFO on a long lens, with mere inches or less of sharp field).

All of that is mostly artistic sensibility - so Paul nails it when he says different shooters will have different opinions. :D
 
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Cracker Funk said:
30 ISO? You sure you don't mean 1/30th shutter speed? Yes, 1/30th is bad.
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Oh yea, massive brain fart. That's what I meant. That's very interesting read, thanks for that. So always just lock the frame rate to 50 and don't deviate unless it's a really unusual situation. Got it.

And stick w/ expanded iso setting in multiples of 160: 160, 320, 480

cool!
 
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yummydonkey said:
Oh yea, massive brain fart. That's what I meant. That's very interesting read, thanks for that. So always just lock the frame rate to 50 and don't deviate unless it's a really unusual situation. Got it.

And stick w/ expanded iso setting in multiples of 160: 160, 320, 480

cool!
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Shutter speed, not frame rate :)
 
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Cracker Funk said:
Ehh, yeah, you're wrong, but I woulnd't say "horribly". As chilipie mentioned, it's shutter-speed that determines the amount of motion-blur. Me? I feel like you're safe between 1/50-1/80, but I'm that crazy guy you might not wanna listen to. Ernest says you should stay at 1/60.

.
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Hahahah, u reminded me of that long and funny debate we had.

OP: like everyone said. 1/50 or 1/60 when shooting at 24fps.

the reason y i say 1/60 is bc ur not really going to notice the difference between 1/50 and 1/60 and staying at 1/60 will solve some flickering light issues u might run into.
 
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Ernest Worthing said:
the reason y i say 1/60 is bc ur not really going to notice the difference between 1/50 and 1/60 and staying at 1/60 will solve some flickering light issues u might run into.
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That's a very good point actually, which I'd completely forgotten about… I can stick to 1/50 all the time as I'm in PAL/50 Hz land.
 
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"Set your shutter speed to double your frame rate. That means if you're shooting 24p, your frame rate should be 50 (Because they don't offer 48). If you're shooting 30p, it should be set to 60, and if you're shooting 60p it should be set to 120. "

There's the correct answer. Set it, and then never, ever, ever touch it again. I have seen SO many films that look like utter garbage because they set the shutter spped too high and the whole film looks like beach sequences in Saving private Ryan.
 
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Gonzo_Entertainment said:
"Set your shutter speed to double your frame rate. That means if you're shooting 24p, your frame rate should be 50 (Because they don't offer 48). If you're shooting 30p, it should be set to 60, and if you're shooting 60p it should be set to 120. "

There's the correct answer. Set it, and then never, ever, ever touch it again. I have seen SO many films that look like utter garbage because they set the shutter spped too high and the whole film looks like beach sequences in Saving private Ryan.
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1) Virtually everyone told OP to double the shutter speed according to frame rate. The only caveat was the light flickering issue where 1/50 or 1/60 could be chosen to avoid it.

2) The effects of setting it higher are subjective. Agreed it doesnt work most of the time but it has a suitable effect when done right with the right subject matter. You can use a higher shutter speed for that effect. For eg in a fight scene. Or say someone has a mental issue with intense head pain and everything he sees around him is unnaturally crisp. Him watching water fall that way could be a very good way to show his internal perspective.

3) Goonies!
 
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Felt it was worth reinforcing as I just had to sit through a number of films (probably all shot on DSLR) where it was a major issue. I'm four walling the premiere of new short at a local theatre so I solicited submissions for some films to show with it and fill out the two hour block. They would be shooting outdoors, and they would up the shutter speed so they could open the aperture for DOF (as would be normal in still photography) resulting in the effect we're talking about. My reaction was to hit he stop button, and toss the DVD in the garbage. Not done for a very specific reason (like some you suggested) it's called "amateur hour".
 
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Gonzo_Entertainment said:
Felt it was worth reinforcing as I just had to sit through a number of films (probably all shot on DSLR) where it was a major issue. I'm four walling the premiere of new short at a local theatre so I solicited submissions for some films to show with it and fill out the two hour block. They would be shooting outdoors, and they would up the shutter speed so they could open the aperture for DOF (as would be normal in still photography) resulting in the effect we're talking about. My reaction was to hit he stop button, and toss the DVD in the garbage. Not done for a very specific reason (like some you suggested) it's called "amateur hour".
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I thought that might be it but its hard to tell online. And you're right, most of the time it is not used to good effect. However, i like to leave options open for ppl so i wanted to clarify it a bit :)

And for those who want the shallow dof: Dont increase shutter speed so that you can have a open your aperture more as you would in still photography. Keep the shutter speed at its appropriate level and simply lower the light. Or if you are in a situation where you can not lower the light, use ND filters so less light reaches the sensor. Either way will allow you to open your aperture more to get the proper exposure and give you a shallower dof.
 
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