my first 'real' short film

kgasser2

kgasser2

i put this into the pre production section because that is where i am at in the stages of this project, although the discussion may not be entirely about pre production per se.

Firstly, i think everyone would be in a better position to give appropriate feedback if you were to read the script. unfortunately i've had trouble in the past attempting to post a link here. the website i write on is based online (scripped.com) and the only way to export is via pdf file. i would just attach it here but i dont think basic members can do that (but it would be nice! how about that for your comment box, indietalk!)

Since i can't post it i will just give you a little run through on what it is about. It starts with a man who is stranded on the side of the road with a broken down truck. he is at the point where he has given up on trying to get out and is just waiting to die. Then a car finally pulls up they have a little discussion on the situation then it comes down to the stranded man asking this random gentleman for help. it ends up that the stranded guy has to kill a hostage that this new guy had in his car in order to get help from him. He does so, then a slight twist of fate, and he escapes.

i realize how bland this sounds when i put it that way but i promise it's pretty good!

So my first issue: the camera we have to film on is my friends canon hf200. I have a few questions.

-When i switch it to black and white mode, it shows it in bw for a second then goes back to color when you record. I could just record in color then put on a bw filter in post but i'd like to build my compositions in the color it will be shown in.
-What will the workflow look like? i have cs4 master collection, so i was going to edit in premiere, but should i import it with premiere? can i do all the post there? what sort of minimum specs should my comp have to be able to efficiently edit the footy?

Next issue is sound: we have none. for a while i was content with just making it a silent, but i started thinking of other possibilities. I could have a score for it, which was my first choice but i dont want a weak soundtrack to take away from the picture. I considered just adding sound effects in post, like car doors, lighters, cigs burning, a slowly building wind. and recently i considered going voice over for the whole thing, but i've really become partial to the idea of subtitles, i feel like the words juxaposed with some of the imagery will have a nice impact.


I have much more to say but i have to go now, I'll let you digest this and i will add to it tomorrow. danka hans :)
 
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kgasser2 said:
i put this into the pre production section because that is where i am at in the stages of this project, although the discussion may not be entirely about pre production per se.

Firstly, i think everyone would be in a better position to give appropriate feedback if you were to read the script. unfortunately i've had trouble in the past attempting to post a link here. the website i write on is based online (scripped.com) and the only way to export is via pdf file. i would just attach it here but i dont think basic members can do that (but it would be nice! how about that for your comment box, indietalk!)

Since i can't post it i will just give you a little run through on what it is about. It starts with a man who is stranded on the side of the road with a broken down truck. he is at the point where he has given up on trying to get out and is just waiting to die. Then a car finally pulls up they have a little discussion on the situation then it comes down to the stranded man asking this random gentleman for help. it ends up that the stranded guy has to kill a hostage that this new guy had in his car in order to get help from him. He does so, then a slight twist of fate, and he escapes.

i realize how bland this sounds when i put it that way but i promise it's pretty good!

So my first issue: the camera we have to film on is my friends canon hf200. I have a few questions.

-When i switch it to black and white mode, it shows it in bw for a second then goes back to color when you record. I could just record in color then put on a bw filter in post but i'd like to build my compositions in the color it will be shown in.
-What will the workflow look like? i have cs4 master collection, so i was going to edit in premiere, but should i import it with premiere? can i do all the post there? what sort of minimum specs should my comp have to be able to efficiently edit the footy?

Next issue is sound: we have none. for a while i was content with just making it a silent, but i started thinking of other possibilities. I could have a score for it, which was my first choice but i dont want a weak soundtrack to take away from the picture. I considered just adding sound effects in post, like car doors, lighters, cigs burning, a slowly building wind. and recently i considered going voice over for the whole thing, but i've really become partial to the idea of subtitles, i feel like the words juxaposed with some of the imagery will have a nice impact.


I have much more to say but i have to go now, I'll let you digest this and i will add to it tomorrow. danka hans :)
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First off, you should post your screenplay in the screenwriting forum. Lots of talented people willing to give their critiques. Also, lots of wolves salivating to tear your work to shreds. Can be difficult to tell them apart, but they're both there, and you can actually benefit from both.

Second, always record in color. Removing saturation in post is quick and easy. But if you record B&W, you can't add saturation.

I don't think it's an evil thing to do -- using the in-cam mic. Of course you don't want to do that forever, but I don't think it's necessary to saddle yourself with too much to learn and practice at once. Practice one skill. Perfect it. Move on to the next. Sound can come later. If you insist on buying a mic, you don't have to start with the expensive ones. A cheap $30 mic, with a DIY boom, plugged straight into your camera is still better than the in-cam mic.
 
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On the subject of post, yes you can do all the post work in CS4 with the master collection.

As for system specs, my computer I use for HD editing has 8GB of DDR3 RAM, quad-core processor, 7200 rpm hard drive with 1 TB of storage, and an Nvidia GeForce 9100 graphics card. It works quite well for what I do. Playback of unrendered HD footage in Vegas Pro 9 and After Effects CS4 can be a bit slow/laggy, but most of that has to do with my shitty graphics card that I'm too lazy to upgrade. I'm no computer expert, but you'll probably want a minimum of 4GB of DDR3 RAM and a 7200 rpm hard drive. Hard drive size doesn't really matter, as you'll want to use an external hard drive anyway.

But, you gotta do what you gotta do. I edited my first 2 shorts on a computer that was hardly suitable for surfing the net, let alone editing a film, using a $75 consumer level NLE. The second of those two shorts turned out decent, and placed in the top 3 in a local high school film competition. Just use whatever you have access to, until you can get better stuff.
 
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Navi Lover said:
always record in color. Removing saturation in post is quick and easy. But if you record B&W, you can't add saturation.
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If the footage is actually 'sposed to be b/w, you can do a bunch of neat things to accomodate that.

Things such as lighting, makeup, colours for set dressing & costumes, and a tonne more can look very different in a b/w state of mind.

Imo, if it's supposed to be b/w then plan to shoot it as such.


Kgasser said:
I could have a score for it, which was my first choice but i dont want a weak soundtrack to take away from the picture.
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12 Angry Men has no soundtrack at all. I think it came out rather well. :cool:
 
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Zensteve said:
12 Angry Men has no soundtrack at all. I think it came out rather well. :cool:
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of course 12 angry men had recorded dialogue! if that was my case i would experiement with no music. no country for old men did the same thing.

and thank you very much buddy, that means something.

i was thinking about taking the sound i get from the camera mic and editing it like crazy with a ton of reverb and echo and make it real low and subtle, i could add a ton of gain to it so when someone yells it will be like a roar; think 'blue velvet'. experimental, of course, and i think it would be cool but i'm under the school of thought that every element of the film should perpetuate the story in some way or help express the ideas and emotions. i'm not sure that this idea would necessarily do that. especially with this short where the only thing i have to work with is a camera, natural light, editing, and whatever i choose to do with the sound, (and of course the script but i'm talking about the production values here) everything needs to count.

thoughts and suggestions?

also, cracker funk, i didnt want to resort to having crappy sound because, like they say, sound is half the experience. i thought i would be better off experimenting and doing something interesting for the sounds rather than just having poopy sounding dialogue. i think that will take away from it. but when i talk about having creepy ambient sounds or something, that is what the mood is all about.

with that, i was thinking about using sub titles, because the dialogue is actually sort of important. not that much needs explained but i think it brings in a deeper dimension than what i could bring with strictly pictures and gestures. but with having subtitles and black and white, do you think it would come off as too, art house poser? i want to try and avoid that, but those decisions are practical for me and actually aid the film as a whole.

another difficulty i've come across is my acting situation. previously, i was hoping to be able to stay behind the camera and direct, but the person i planned on having play one of the characters had moved back home (across the country) before i expected. so now i'm going to attempt to play one of the main characters (well there are 2 main characters, the only characters really) and direct. i know this is going to cause some issues, but is it managable? would i be better off finding someone who wouldnt fill the part as well? i mean i'm no real actor but i'm really the best person to do it. plus i already know the story and the dialogue through and through (i wrote it for christ sakes) so i think that would save time from having to feed my ideas to someone else and hope they can adapt it well.

since we have no real camera man, its going to be mostly steady shots from a tripod. i think for one of the more dramatic parts, i could pull off having some hand held shots, but i wanted to stay away from that. my issue is trying to keep things interesting. for the beginning i'm okay with keeping everything static, that was my plan anyway, but i thought as we get further into it there should be more movement to get it exciting. what can i really do other than pan back and forth? could i resort to quicker editing to keep it interesting? i dont really have the time or resources to build a dolly, i know someone will suggest that.

we can discuss this then i will move on to other issues.

thank you!
 
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kgasser2 said:
of course 12 angry men had recorded dialogue! if that was my case i would experiement with no music. no country for old men did the same thing.

and thank you very much buddy, that means something.

i was thinking about taking the sound i get from the camera mic and editing it like crazy with a ton of reverb and echo and make it real low and subtle, i could add a ton of gain to it so when someone yells it will be like a roar; think 'blue velvet'. experimental, of course, and i think it would be cool but i'm under the school of thought that every element of the film should perpetuate the story in some way or help express the ideas and emotions. i'm not sure that this idea would necessarily do that. especially with this short where the only thing i have to work with is a camera, natural light, editing, and whatever i choose to do with the sound, (and of course the script but i'm talking about the production values here) everything needs to count.

thoughts and suggestions?

also, cracker funk, i didnt want to resort to having crappy sound because, like they say, sound is half the experience. i thought i would be better off experimenting and doing something interesting for the sounds rather than just having poopy sounding dialogue. i think that will take away from it. but when i talk about having creepy ambient sounds or something, that is what the mood is all about.

with that, i was thinking about using sub titles, because the dialogue is actually sort of important. not that much needs explained but i think it brings in a deeper dimension than what i could bring with strictly pictures and gestures. but with having subtitles and black and white, do you think it would come off as too, art house poser? i want to try and avoid that, but those decisions are practical for me and actually aid the film as a whole.

another difficulty i've come across is my acting situation. previously, i was hoping to be able to stay behind the camera and direct, but the person i planned on having play one of the characters had moved back home (across the country) before i expected. so now i'm going to attempt to play one of the main characters (well there are 2 main characters, the only characters really) and direct. i know this is going to cause some issues, but is it managable? would i be better off finding someone who wouldnt fill the part as well? i mean i'm no real actor but i'm really the best person to do it. plus i already know the story and the dialogue through and through (i wrote it for christ sakes) so i think that would save time from having to feed my ideas to someone else and hope they can adapt it well.

since we have no real camera man, its going to be mostly steady shots from a tripod. i think for one of the more dramatic parts, i could pull off having some hand held shots, but i wanted to stay away from that. my issue is trying to keep things interesting. for the beginning i'm okay with keeping everything static, that was my plan anyway, but i thought as we get further into it there should be more movement to get it exciting. what can i really do other than pan back and forth? could i resort to quicker editing to keep it interesting? i dont really have the time or resources to build a dolly, i know someone will suggest that.

we can discuss this then i will move on to other issues.

thank you!
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In-cam audio is nearly as horrendously bad as you probably think it is. You wouldn't want to use it on any grand projects, but I think you should think of these first few shorts as your educational pieces -- you're learning how to do this filmmaking thing. If you were studying this in school, your professor would not try and make you learn everything at once. Most beginner video student start out with a camera and a tripod, and that's it.

Oh, and you should ALWAYS use a steady shot, on a tripod. No camera movement; not in the beginning.

When I suggest that you learn and practice one thing at a time, I mean it. It's what my professors made me go through, and I think you should do the same. Learning to compose a shot. That's one thing. Learning to compose a shot, while shooting a scene that cuts together well. That's two things. Learning to compose a shot, while shooting a scene that cuts together well, while moving the camera -- that's three things. Learning to compose a shot, while shooting a scene that cuts together well, while moving the camera, while recording external audio -- you get my point.

Patience. Learn one thing at a time.

And get used to having issues with actors. As time progresses, and your projects get a little bit bigger, you'll meet more and more people willing to work with you (and show up when they say they will). However, in the beginning, it's going to be your friends and family. Try a local college theater department.
 
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Zensteve said:
12 Angry Men has no soundtrack at all. I think it came out rather well. :cool:
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Yeah that movie worked with no soundtrack. But I think that might have something to do with the fact it was written (and written well) for the stage.

Lost in Translation also had no soundtrack and I think it ruined the movie. Completely. Probably one of my least favorite films.
 
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well the main issue is

THERE IS NO SOUND FOR THE DIALOGUE.

so i think i need either a soundtrack or fx sounds or maybe experiment with some weird dialogue sounds. this is what i could like your opinion on
 
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I have done a short film without or music or dialogue :) Would you be interested in the link-it's on youtube(I don't want to presume here and get into the "here's my short, aint' it great!" type of response lol

When you do one without either, your sound has to be close to perfect (mine was not, alas, but it was my first film lol)

Get a good microphone (I originally used a camera mic and eventually got a Shure 608, which works well). It's catching the ambivent sounds while certain sounds for effect (cups on tables, footsteps, ect) being clear. I had no dialogue, as the character wears a mask.


EDIT: I'll put it here anyway, click if you wish! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUHojrum2KI
 
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Music

Personally I am particial to music, hence why I started Occasus Ltd. (a company dedicated to producing various types of film scores using both computer generated samples and live sound).

Firstly, if you cant film in black and white off your camera, using your editing programme in the post production will reduce the overall quality and effectiveness of your final product. But only marginally. I would recommend reducing saturation (as previously suggested).

Secondly I'm not sure about subtitles. Sometimes they are extremely effective, other times they take away from the film. Also if you are not going to have dialogue I would recommend an atmospheric/ambient score. Which I can provide you if you like.

Email me: occasus.ltd@gmail.com

Thanks
Matt
 
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kgasser2 said:
any more advice on what i could do with the audio? i'm down with some experimenting
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Spend $50 on a cheap mic, and make a DIY boom. Dude, it's not nearly as bad as you probably are imagining it. At last year's Richmond 48HFP, my team took home more awards than any other, and we were up against one of the largest advertising firms on the East Coast. We did not win any awards for sound, but our crappy mic did not distract from the rest of the strengths of the movie. Honestly, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the results you can get with a cheap mic.
 
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Cracker Funk said:
Spend $50 on a cheap mic, and make a DIY boom. Dude, it's not nearly as bad as you probably are imagining it. At last year's Richmond 48HFP, my team took home more awards than any other, and we were up against one of the largest advertising firms on the East Coast. We did not win any awards for sound, but our crappy mic did not distract from the rest of the strengths of the movie. Honestly, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the results you can get with a cheap mic.
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My Shure 608 was around 50 bucks-provides wonderful alternative to camera mic sound :)
 
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dlevanchuk said:
OOOOOH I'm suprised AlcoveAudio didn't tear you to shreds for saying this :lol::lol:
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Haha. No, I think he gets it. I think he knows I'm not advocating this method to get good sound. Just some kind of sound that's better than the in-cam mic. It is also true that I advocate spending $100 on your first camera (used miniDV), if you're a total noob.
 
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