View Full Version : 30 Second Rule???


TI Irwin
07-05-2010, 06:13 PM
When I was in High School, I was part of a broadcast journalism program that was funded by the school district and endorsed by the city. The program ran and aired a 24-7 broadcast on their channel, KLPS Channel 18
My teacher told me that it was okay to use any music clip in my productions for Channel 18 so long as it was less than 30 seconds. The rationale that I was told is that under 30 seconds doesn't violate copyright rights. Is that a load of crap or can I use this loophole in my films?

Also, are you required to buy rights IF you give the musician and label credit for their work? (Yeah I probably could have hit the "search" button but I'm lazy and don't really have time for that. Sorry.)

- Thanks

Zensteve
07-05-2010, 06:38 PM
My teacher told me that it was okay to use any music clip in my productions for Channel 18 so long as it was less than 30 seconds. The rationale that I was told is that under 30 seconds doesn't violate copyright rights. Is that a load of crap

Pretty much a load of crap, worded like that.

There is the concept of "Fair Use", and one of the unofficial guidelines is that 30 seconds (roughly) is an adequate amount to use - but even that assumes that what you are doing would fall under fair use itself... and that is very open to interpretation.

Not even the copyright office can nail down what it is:


The distinction between fair use and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission.

Source: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html



Ever listen to a radio talk show? They play that bumper music to signify the start & end of the commercials. That's usually under 30 seconds, but you better believe they are paying for the privilege to do so. That's a commercial use, and rights have to be cleared.



are you required to buy rights IF you give the musician and label credit for their work?

You can always ask for permission, and the right to use it for free. There are tens of thousands of bands & musicians who would love to have their music used simply for the exposure opportunity. If you don't ask, you don't get.

However, you ain't gonna get away with slipping in a Rolling Stones song and just tacking on a thanks in the closing credits.


I probably could have hit the "search" button but I'm lazy and don't really have time for that.

I can't think of any successful filmmakers with that particular quality.

TI Irwin
07-05-2010, 07:52 PM
Pretty much a load of crap, worded like that.

There is the concept of "Fair Use", and one of the unofficial guidelines is that 30 seconds (roughly) is an adequate amount to use - but even that assumes that what you are doing would fall under fair use itself... and that is very open to interpretation.

Not even the copyright office can nail down what it is:



Source: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html



Ever listen to a radio talk show? They play that bumper music to signify the start & end of the commercials. That's usually under 30 seconds, but you better believe they are paying for the privilege to do so. That's a commercial use, and rights have to be cleared.





You can always ask for permission, and the right to use it for free. There are tens of thousands of bands & musicians who would love to have their music used simply for the exposure opportunity. If you don't ask, you don't get.

However, you ain't gonna get away with slipping in a Rolling Stones song and just tacking on a thanks in the closing credits.




I can't think of any successful filmmakers with that particular quality.

Good advice, thanks.

On the laziness thing, I'm only lazy about things I don't care about. Filmmaking is the one thing I care about more than anything else and I can tell you that my effort towards film are as far from lazy as they can be. I DO care about respecting the forum rules, but my internet goes in and out and I'd rather not waste the time that I have a good connection for something so small.

Alcove Audio
07-05-2010, 11:02 PM
What also occurs with broadcast entities is that they buy a "blanket" license which allows for the use of material without individual clearances from ASCAP/BMI/SESAC for the use of copyrighted materials so long as it lasts less than 30 seconds. This is generally for news, sports & entertainment (meaning entertainment news) programs. Each broadcast entity must provide a quarterly summary of exactly what material and how much of it was used. This is to insure that a piece of material is not used as a theme song which requires a per piece clearance process. ASCAP/BMI/SESAC generously provide this to educational entities for a token fee, which you or your instructor may have misunderstood or it may have been improperly explained to you or your teacher. Even the educational facilities are required to provide quarterly playlists.

TI Irwin
07-05-2010, 11:09 PM
What also occurs with broadcast entities is that they buy a "blanket" license which allows for the use of material without individual clearances from ASCAP/BMI/SESAC for the use of copyrighted materials so long as it lasts less than 30 seconds. This is generally for news, sports & entertainment (meaning entertainment news) programs. Each broadcast entity must provide a quarterly summary of exactly what material and how much of it was used. This is to insure that a piece of material is not used as a theme song which requires a per piece clearance process. ASCAP/BMI/SESAC generously provide this to educational entities for a token fee, which you or your instructor may have misunderstood or it may have been improperly explained to you or your teacher. Even the educational facilities are required to provide quarterly playlists.

Thanks. They never told me exactly how it works, and I definitely have "cheated" that rule on pieces that aired. Unintentional copyright infringement... Ooops :D

Midnite
07-06-2010, 05:14 AM
There is no loophole. 7 seconds was enough for one film to lose a legal battle over. The contracts for using established music are mind-numbing. If you are determined to use a well known song, then either follow through officially, or take your chances that the publisher will never see the film...But then, THAT would be theft, and as artists, it's kinda rude.

But there are a ton of unheard of musicians out there who will gladly give you permission to use their songs. You just gotta seek 'em out and ask.

Best

Midnite, the hobbyist musician

TI Irwin
07-06-2010, 11:05 PM
There is no loophole. 7 seconds was enough for one film to lose a legal battle over. The contracts for using established music are mind-numbing. If you are determined to use a well known song, then either follow through officially, or take your chances that the publisher will never see the film...But then, THAT would be theft, and as artists, it's kinda rude.

But there are a ton of unheard of musicians out there who will gladly give you permission to use their songs. You just gotta seek 'em out and ask.

Best

Midnite, the hobbyist musician

If you've seen some of my other posts, you probably would notice that I'm not the most ethical human being on the planet. BUT I wouldn't want someone to steal my art so I won't do it to them. If I can't afford other people's music legally I'll make my own (I rap) or see if I can get permission.

I just wanted to be sure there wasn't some legal but unwritten rule that I could use.

wheatgrinder
07-07-2010, 05:14 PM
check your edjumacation..

legal but unwritten --- no such thing..

Start with the Hammurabi code.. then work forward.. :)

TI Irwin
07-07-2010, 07:56 PM
check your edjumacation..

legal but unwritten --- no such thing..

Start with the Hammurabi code.. then work forward.. :)

Yeah there are. They're called loopholes. And they are literally unwritten so there is no law against them, therefore they are legal. (Like being able to buy assault rifles at gun shows in MO.)

Not going to lie, I've heard of Hammurabi code but I haven't the slightest clue as to what it is... I don't really feel like Googleing it either, so sorry if I didn't pick up on the humor...

L.I.F.E.
07-07-2010, 10:06 PM
Are you sure you want to make films? Too lazy to use a search , and to lazy to google something, you really are lazy. Before internet you would have had to go to a library to find things out, now your too lazy to push a few buttons? Really?

TI Irwin
07-07-2010, 10:38 PM
Are you sure you want to make films? Too lazy to use a search , and to lazy to google something, you really are lazy. Before internet you would have had to go to a library to find things out, now your too lazy to push a few buttons? Really?

Yep. Again, I'm only lazy when I don't care.

Dreadylocks
07-08-2010, 08:15 AM
I prefer the 5 second rule, myself. 30 seconds is way to long too let something sit on the floor and still eat it.

wheatgrinder
07-08-2010, 12:53 PM
A "loop hole" is not an UNWRITTEN law. According to the US Constitution any powers (laws) NOT explicitly called out in the federal, state, or the local laws are RESERVED to the individual. If a law is poorly written, then anything that is not clear is reserved as a right of the individual. Gun show loop holes are not loop holes at all, the FEDERAL right for citizens to OWN and TRADE property trumps the states right to limit commerce in firearms. Only the anti self protection people call it a loop hole, framing the argument to suggest that its just a mistake in wording that allows an upright citizen to own and trade private property.


There is no LAW that lets you drink diet coke between the hours of 6 and 7 pm. By your logic its only a loophole that allows you to have a diet coke between the hours of 6 and 7 pm.


The Hammurabi code is only the basis for western civilization is all.. nothin big.. dont bother your self. Just keep raisin yer fist at the powers that be, chose to remain in the bondage of ignorance. The truth shall make you free... so remain a slave if you want..


I thought I read in some of your prose about how you'd rather have knowledge then money, at this rate, you'll have neither..
:)

wheatgrinder
07-08-2010, 12:58 PM
my point about no such thing as unwritten law goes to the fact that LAWS have to be written or they don't exist as laws. Hammurabi was the first (arguable, but generally agreed) example we have today of ancient laws being WRITTEN down. This is a huge thing in the development of human civilization on earth. Without written laws then the only "justice" comes from the mouth of the king, which is not a good thing for anti social filmmakers, rap artists etc..

:)