Budget Cardioid Condenser Mics

Wombat · Jun 16, 2010

Howdy y'all.

So, most everyone knows about the Rode NTG-2. The de facto budget shotgun mic champion. Unfortunately, that's only half of a budget mic team. Alcove Audio recommends the Oktava MK-012, but unfortunately it runs off of phantom power only, which sucks for people whose budget doesn't include a Beachtek or juicedLink adapter.

What are some decent budget cardioid condenser mics that run off of battery power? I see that Rode makes one that is of comparable price to the NTG-2, but I don't know if it's adequate for video work.

Alcove Audio · Jun 16, 2010

The NT3 is a nice mic, and will do a passable job but is - at least for production sound work - a bit clunky and heavy; it's aimed a the music crowd, not at EFP.

I know that everyone is on a tight budget (and that my position will start a firestorm of indignation and debate), but there comes a point and time you must make a significant commitment, both informationally and financially, to capturing great sound. From my viewpoint it comes down to a substantial investment in sound gear and expending the time & effort to learn all of the ins and outs, or making the choice to relinquish some control and hiring a professional; or at least teaming up with an up-and-coming PSM/Boom-op.

Wombat · Jun 16, 2010

Alcove Audio said:
The NT3 is a nice mic, and will do a passable job but is - at least for production sound work - a bit clunky and heavy; it's aimed a the music crowd, not at EFP.

Hm. Well, as far as actual sound quality, how does it fare? Sure, there's what it's intended for, but from my experience thus far, a large part of indie filmmaking is stretching what little you have and can get as far as they'll go.

I know that everyone is on a tight budget (and that my position will start a firestorm of indignation and debate), but there comes a point and time you must make a significant commitment, both informationally and financially, to capturing great sound. From my viewpoint it comes down to a substantial investment in sound gear and expending the time & effort to learn all of the ins and outs, or making the choice to relinquish some control and hiring a professional; or at least teaming up with an up-and-coming PSM/Boom-op.

Certainly. I have a friend who is very interested in audio production (not necessarily as a job, more of a hobby) and is willing to learn how to capture and produce good audio, which is great. I've done a lot of research as well, it's just that buying a quality, battery operated CC mic fits better to my budgetary needs. I could get a decent interior mic and start capturing decent sound before I buy the adapter and get even better sound. It's not as though the mic I buy would become useless (unless, indeed, there simply aren't any quality battery operated CC mics).

Do you think it would be a better investment to just hold off on buying an interior mic until I get an adapter?

Papertwinproductions · Jun 17, 2010

Alcove Audio said:
The NT3 is a nice mic, and will do a passable job but is - at least for production sound work - a bit clunky and heavy; it's aimed a the music crowd, not at EFP.

I know that everyone is on a tight budget (and that my position will start a firestorm of indignation and debate), but there comes a point and time you must make a significant commitment, both informationally and financially, to capturing great sound. From my viewpoint it comes down to a substantial investment in sound gear and expending the time & effort to learn all of the ins and outs, or making the choice to relinquish some control and hiring a professional; or at least teaming up with an up-and-coming PSM/Boom-op.

After reading most of the threads on audio and your blog, we took your advice, hired a boom-op with a few years experience, invested just as much as we did for the visual into the sound.

It's strange how audio seems to be neglected, i guess it takes one of your projects to crash due to bum sound to open your eyes.

Cheers for the heads up @Alcove!

wheatgrinder · Jun 17, 2010

WoBat,
be not too discouraged, there are good quality mics WITH battery power. Senheiser makes at least two.

Wombat · Jun 17, 2010

Papertwinproductions said:
After reading most of the threads on audio and your blog, we took your advice, hired a boom-op with a few years experience, invested just as much as we did for the visual into the sound.

It's strange how audio seems to be neglected, i guess it takes one of your projects to crash due to bum sound to open your eyes.

Cheers for the heads up @Alcove!

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have an experienced, pro boom op, a nice preamp/adaper and preamp/mixer, and all the other niceties of professional sound equipment, but the key word here is "budget". I simply don't have the cash on hand to go out and buy all of this stuff at once. I'm planning on buying my stuff aggregately, slowly amassing an impressive kit, and it seems like it would be better to invest in a decent interior mic so I can start fiddling with interior audio before I get a preamp.

It's not that I'm neglecting audio. Trust me, after making a few videos in high school on a godawful lowend consumer DV camera with only the built in mic, I do have a respect for sound. Admittedly, I'm a little ignorant when it comes to distinguishing between 'great' sound and 'decent' sound, but all I'm looking for at this juncture is something that's going to pick up clean, discernable dialog indoors with minimal noise.

wheatgrinder said:
WoBat,
be not too discouraged, there are good quality mics WITH battery power. Senheiser makes at least two.

Hm, which two are they? Can't find 'em on B&H. Since they're Senns, I'd expect them to be a tad pricy; is one available for a comparable price to the NTG-2?

Papertwinproductions · Jun 17, 2010

Wombat said:
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have an experienced, pro boom op, a nice preamp/adaper and preamp/mixer, and all the other niceties of professional sound equipment, but the key word here is "budget". I simply don't have the cash on hand to go out and buy all of this stuff at once. I'm planning on buying my stuff aggregately, slowly amassing an impressive kit, and it seems like it would be better to invest in a decent interior mic so I can start fiddling with interior audio before I get a preamp.

It's not that I'm neglecting audio. Trust me, after making a few videos in high school on a godawful lowend consumer DV camera with only the built in mic, I do have a respect for sound. Admittedly, I'm a little ignorant when it comes to distinguishing between 'great' sound and 'decent' sound, but all I'm looking for at this juncture is something that's going to pick up clean, discernable dialog indoors with minimal noise.

I apologize if that came across i was putting the knife in, I wasn't. We are pretty much in the same boat, we have to fight tooth and nail to meet our budgets, so @Alcoves' posts have confirmed that each segment of the overall creation of a film are as important as eachother. I think going from a movie-watcher to a movie-maker, your interest is what you see, so we all begin naive, only when it is you enter the trade that you learn to appreciate the coming together and the importance of each piece. So when budget enters the frame, it creates the famous dilemmas of how you're going to delegate your cash.

I would highly suggest finding a willing sound recordist, even though we hugely appreciate the equality of the coming together, in this case audio, you'll never love a craft like your own craft. So hiring a boom-op who may i add come with little equipment, we spent months supplying the investment so he could have the necessary tools.

Search the ends of the earth for an SR looking for exp, try hook him up on collab, scout AA's blogs and see what he has and hasn't got, he'll be clued up so I'm sure he'll let you know what you need within budget.
(He/She if they are a recent graduate/film school may have resources within their place of study)

It's just balancing on buying the equipment and learning the craft yourself, or playing Chris Columbus and waiting it out to catch a fish. Either way could save you money depending on what way it swings and the circumstance.

Goodluck sir!

Wombat · Jun 17, 2010

Papertwinproductions said:
I would highly suggest finding a willing sound recordist, even though we hugely appreciate the equality of the coming together, in this case audio, you'll never love a craft like your own craft. So hiring a boom-op who may i add come with little equipment, we spent months supplying the investment so he could have the necessary tools.

Search the ends of the earth for an SR looking for exp, try hook him up on collab, scout AA's blogs and see what he has and hasn't got, he'll be clued up so I'm sure he'll let you know what you need within budget.
(He/She if they are a recent graduate/film school may have resources within their place of study)

It's just balancing on buying the equipment and learning the craft yourself, or playing Chris Columbus and waiting it out to catch a fish. Either way could save you money depending on what way it swings and the circumstance.

Well, like I said, my friend is interested in audio production for music, which is similar to audio production for film. Pensacola isn't exactly a hotspot for film, so finding someone who is experienced/wants to get experience and have their own equipment more than likely isn't an option. I consider myself lucky that I have friends willing to help out with film projects, a few of whom are actually 'serious' about helping out.

My friend is willing to buy mics and such, seeing as he would eventually use them anyway for music recording. I suppose if that was the case I could use the budget for mics and spend it on a preamp/adapter, but eh. We'd have to play it by ear.

Goodluck sir!

Thanks!

Alcove Audio · Jun 17, 2010

So what is your budget? And what resources are currently available to your audio friend? That will help define what you both may need to purchase.

Renting can be very cost effective. Sure, you don't own it, but the gear you will be renting is usually of much higher quality than your budget purchase and you usually get the latest, greatest "toys". If your audio buddy is going to build a sound kit some companies allow a portion or even all of the rental fee(s) to be applied to the purchase price.

Wombat · Jun 17, 2010

Alcove Audio said:
So what is your budget?

Hm, you know, that's a good question. I'm just a lowly wage slave at the moment, so the general rule of thumb is "as inexpensive as possible while still achieving decent quality". It's a long general rule, but, you know.

For just a single microphone, I would say no more than ~$300 at the moment. Preferably cheaper, obviously.

B&H has this Fostex MC32 mic that has both cardioid and supercardioid patterns, runs off of battery power, and is of comparable weight to the NTG-2. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find anything about this mic on Google. Do you have any experience with the mic or the Fostex brand?

And what resources are currently available to your audio friend? That will help define what you both may need to purchase.

Filmmaking wise? Well, aside from his PC which I'll be editing on, and a warm body that has an innate sensitivity to sound, not particularly much. By "very interested" I mean "wants to learn more about" I suppose.

Renting can be very cost effective. Sure, you don't own it, but the gear you will be renting is usually of much higher quality than your budget purchase and you usually get the latest, greatest "toys". If your audio buddy is going to build a sound kit some companies allow a portion or even all of the rental fee(s) to be applied to the purchase price.

Oh, that's just the thing. My experience level in film is low, so what I'm buying now isn't necessarily for indie feature production but rather good equipment that will serve me in the future that I can learn on. Long term, I plan on renting high quality Senns/Schoeps/etc and actually paying my boom op instead of just giving him beer afterwards.

About the rental -> purchase stuff, that's good to know.

wheatgrinder · Jun 17, 2010

A used Beachteck with phantom power is under $100.

I went this route because I already had some decent mics for music recording. They are not perfect for location work, but I can use them.

So think of it as a continuum.

On one end you have the built in camera mics and on the other you have a dedicate piece of audio hardware and great mics.

You can chose to SLIDE up the continuum, upgrading as you learn the limitation of what you have. Or you can arbitrarily jump in somewhere in the middle.

The lure of the incremental slide up the continuum is that you can save money. You will quickly learn the truth of the adage "no one spends more than the thrifty newbie!" As you hit the limitations of the choices you made in ignorance, you end up spending more on the upgrade to the next step on the continuum. Eventually you will end up where you have the quality and features you can live with, an the frequency of your upgrades will approach zero.

If you simply go with what others tell you, you will never learn why the cheap choices were bad but you will also likely have saved money. Me, I cant do that. I have to go my own way, and its costing me.

Wombat · Jun 17, 2010

wheatgrinder said:
A used Beachteck with phantom power is under $100.

... really. Wow, I just checked eBay, and sure enough...

Wouldn't a mixer be a better investment first, though? I assume it doesn't preamp as well as the adapter but it would solve the whole "boom op can't hear what he's recording because he's 20 yards from the camera and the headphones just can't reach" problem. They provide phantom power, too. Hopefully they're just as cheap used?

I went this route because I already had some decent mics for music recording. They are not perfect for location work, but I can use them.

What about for interior dialog, though? Surely miles ahead of the NTG-2, or the onboard mic?

So think of it as a continuum.

On one end you have the built in camera mics and on the other you have a dedicate piece of audio hardware and great mics.

You can chose to SLIDE up the continuum, upgrading as you learn the limitation of what you have. Or you can arbitrarily jump in somewhere in the middle.

The lure of the incremental slide up the continuum is that you can save money. You will quickly learn the truth of the adage "no one spends more than the thrifty newbie!" As you hit the limitations of the choices you made in ignorance, you end up spending more on the upgrade to the next step on the continuum. Eventually you will end up where you have the quality and features you can live with, an the frequency of your upgrades will approach zero.

If you simply go with what others tell you, you will never learn why the cheap choices were bad but you will also likely have saved money. Me, I cant do that. I have to go my own way, and its costing me.

Heh. Which is exactly why I'm doing all of this research before I'm even close to buying it. Some people suffer from buyer's remorse, but I actually suffer from pre-buyer's remorse, where I will come to a conclusion and then agonize over it for days. The other problem is that I just can't afford high end gear, so I have to really find the parts that give me the most bang for my admittedly small buck.

gpforet · Jun 17, 2010

I used to think that recording music in the confines of an acoustically controlled studio was difficult until I began doing location sound work. While some principles are similar, your friend is going to have to grab a boom pole, stick a decent mic on the end, and spend countless hours practicing. Chase the dog around, chase the wife around, go grab some sound effects...cars passing, crowd noises, jackhammers jackhammering.

The continuous variables along with the rapid pace (and lets not forget the climate, bugs, sweat, chills and long hours), which is what location sound is all about and while still being a "greenhorn" I can say that location sound is, by far, the most difficult audio work I have ever done.

Wombat said:
Well, like I said, my friend is interested in audio production for music, which is similar to audio production for film. Pensacola isn't exactly a hotspot for film, so finding someone who is experienced/wants to get experience and have their own equipment more than likely isn't an option. I consider myself lucky that I have friends willing to help out with film projects, a few of whom are actually 'serious' about helping out.

My friend is willing to buy mics and such, seeing as he would eventually use them anyway for music recording. I suppose if that was the case I could use the budget for mics and spend it on a preamp/adapter, but eh. We'd have to play it by ear.

Thanks!

Alcove Audio · Jun 17, 2010

gpforet said:
... location sound is, by far, the most difficult audio work I have ever done.

AMEN!!! For me, however, the biggest problems were the hours spent doing nothing while the rest of the crew does a four hour setup, and then not being allowed to rehearse and set levels during blocking as it was "too distracting" nor even being given four minutes to get the sound levels properly set.

For the most part audio recording is about isolating what you want to record from everything else. Even collecting sound FX in the field can be extremely frustrating. Ambiences such as crickets, rain, surf, traffic, etc. have to be free of other sounds. And, perversely, all of those things are "sonic pollution" when attempting to capture individual sounds in the field.