Seperate audio vs recording straight to dv tape.

M

MacheteGuy

Hi
I'm planning a small movie and for a while I've had it in my mind that I'm going to record the dialogue through a mixer going into a computer to sync later. But the whole project is getting so stressful and I was wondering if it will make that much of a difference if I just record straight onto the DV tape on the camera? Do you lose a lot of quality when recording audio onto the video camera? Should i just forget the mixer + laptop for recording?

I'm going to be using a RODE NTG-2 on a boom pole.
 
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There are plusses and minuses to each. A separate system allows more control and freedom - and with the right gear much better audio quality - while recording direct to camera means not having to sync the audio in post and less gear to carry around & set up/break down.

Using a computer can be problematical. You cannot do run-and-gun, there's always the possibility of a crash, power can be a problem and you are tethered to a fixed location. Then there is the issue of which audio interface you will be using.

I cannot stress enough that it is not the gear, but the people running the gear. Booming is a very demanding job, it's not just getting the mic somewhere in the vicinity of the talent. A production sound mixers job is ONLY sound; knowing signal levels, signal chains & gain staging, etc. so you will get superior sound if you work with one.

You should check out my blogs here on IndieTalk for more info and come back with questions.
 
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MacheteGuy said:
Do you lose a lot of quality when recording audio onto the video camera?
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There should be no loss of quality going into the camera versus to an external recorder, provided your camera is equipped with XLR jacks. If you only have a mini-jack, you run the risk of intrusive hums, buzzing and other interference.

For my latest feature I recorded straight to camera. Biggest drawback is dealing with the mic cables when the camera is moving (on a dolly, handheld, or whatever).
 
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All of our features are recorded XLR straight to the camera. We always get good audio, and have never had a problem with this setup.

Here is a clip of one of our features for sound quality reference using this method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5yBfouKhXw

I think if you get a decent boom and a quality XLR cable, you can capture perfectly acceptable audio (as long as your boom-op is worth a damn). It's also very quick because you need not slate-in or sync anything in post.
 
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ROC said:
OH MY GOD

DON'T GO TO DV TAPE. External recorders are so much better.

You'll thank yourself in the long run.

Let me know if you have any questions.
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Why? Yes the quality might be higher fidelity, but we've had zero issues, and fantastic quality audio going straight into the camera via XLR. Plus it's cheaper, and faster.

I guess you have to pick two of the three: cheaper, faster, or better...but you can't get all three.
 
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What type of camera and mic are you using?

My experience with DV dialogue is horrendous. Even with a Schoeps MK41 pointed directly at someone's mouth within 3 feet of them, I still get all this 2K-4K unnaturalness in the voice that you can't get rid of and it's from the DV tape.
 
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re

Hey, I have a ntg-2 also!
I have been hooking it up straight to my camcorder, and it has worked fine with me (Only problems have to do with me not having camcorder xlr inputs). The main drawback I saw was mobility with where the boom operator can go. (The headphone wire is fairly short, so it is a stretch). But really it should work fine., especially if you have decent cable length, too.
Actually I had a question bout that myself, though, because I have an adaptor for a mini input into my hv30. I only began to notice a little hum recently when I jacked up the input volume on editing software for dialogue recorded on the mic. Is there something I can do to help with this? I heard about a low to high impeadence matcher or something, but wasn't sure if and what.
 
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@movieman:

My suggestion will always be get an external recorder and recordist/boom operator.

However, budgets and things limiting that, I suggest something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-HD400-2-Channel-Hum-Destroyer/dp/B000KUD2G4/ref=pd_cp_MI_1

I don't know what your setup is like or what types of cables, but you can look at similar products and test these types of things out. They're all around 30$ each.

Alcove Audio might have a better suggestion - I'm pampered with my tube preamps and monster cables in my quiet, floated room of a studio.

:coffee:
 
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ROC said:
My experience with DV dialogue is horrendous. Even with a Schoeps MK41 pointed directly at someone's mouth within 3 feet of them, I still get all this 2K-4K unnaturalness in the voice that you can't get rid of and it's from the DV tape.
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That's odd. Mine sounds great. Some cameras, like my XH-A1, have a menu setting to switch from 12-bit to 16-bit audio. I always use 16-bit. Could that perhaps have been a factor??
 
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SOUND QUESTIONS

Two questions.

When working with film it was easy to record sound, a Nagra would help with all your sound needs out in the field. But now I'm venturing into the world of video to play with the equipment this new world has to offer and I've got a question and also note, I'm trying to keep prices lower so renting studio time and using a Nagra is still something I wish not to use. What is a reasonable digital recording device which can record sound at 24p (like a Nagra) and of course has XLR connectors? I'm looking to purchase something at around $500 or less (either used or new). I'm thinking of using the camera sound devises but I would rather keep it remotely for the freedom of my sound guy(s). Also, after reading some of the quotes in this thread I would rather use an external devise. I don't want to spend the time trying to sync it in post and I was hoping a devise out there has this ability to record in different speeds.

My next question is what is a good omni directional microphone for recording ambient sound? I'm looking for something much cheaper since it will only be used for collecting natural sounds. I already have a kick ass shotgun mic and I'm not worried about the wireless mic. But I was hoping to see if anyone out there has used a omni which picked up good ambient sound for only a few bucks (like $100 or something and again, new or used).

Thanks for any help or thoughts.
 
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wridingrlm said:
Two questions.

When working with film it was easy to record sound, a Nagra would help with all your sound needs out in the field. But now I'm venturing into the world of video to play with the equipment this new world has to offer and I've got a question and also note, I'm trying to keep prices lower so renting studio time and using a Nagra is still something I wish not to use. What is a reasonable digital recording device which can record sound at 24p (like a Nagra) and of course has XLR connectors? I'm looking to purchase something at around $500 or less (either used or new). I'm thinking of using the camera sound devises but I would rather keep it remotely for the freedom of my sound guy(s). Also, after reading some of the quotes in this thread I would rather use an external devise. I don't want to spend the time trying to sync it in post and I was hoping a devise out there has this ability to record in different speeds.

My next question is what is a good omni directional microphone for recording ambient sound? I'm looking for something much cheaper since it will only be used for collecting natural sounds. I already have a kick ass shotgun mic and I'm not worried about the wireless mic. But I was hoping to see if anyone out there has used a omni which picked up good ambient sound for only a few bucks (like $100 or something and again, new or used).

Thanks for any help or thoughts.
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An awful lot of contradictions in that post.

Digital Audio Recorders:

At about $300 the Zoom H4n is popular with the indie crowd. It's cheap and does the job, but a bit in the flimsy side, the mic pres are little harsh, and the batteries drain quickly if you use the unit to supply phantom power to the mic(s).

The Fostex FR2-LE (about $600) is fairly well built, has relatively smooth mic pres, and has real knobs for volume control (which is important for mixing "on the fly"). The menus system is a little confusing, however, and the headphone output has some hiss (which is not recorded) that can have you looking for noises which are not there, or may cover up noise that is. The Oade Brothers mod fixes this problem and improves on the S/N ratio.

The Marantz PMD-661 (about $600) is also very nice; not quite as sturdy as the FR2-LE but the menu is more intuitive.

The Tascam HD-P2 (about $750) is my favorite in the low/mid price range. Nice smooth mic pres (for the price) and an intuitive menu system, it also accepts BNC word clock sync.

+-+-+-+-+

I don't know what you consider a "kick-ass" shotgun mic (something like the Sennheiser MKH-416, the Sanken CSS-5 or the Schoeps CMIT5U would be my candidates for "kick-ass"), neither do you say why you want to record ambient/nature sounds, but you are not going to get a good mic for recording ambient/nature sounds for about $100. My "gripe" with cheap mics is that they have quite a bit of self noise. Nature sounds are quite delicate and require a quiet mic. I also would prefer a stereo mic or a matched pair of condensers. I started out eight years ago with the Audio Technica AT822 (about $350) which is a high impedance mic. The AT8022 ($400) is very similar and is low impedance. Prices go up - way up - from there.
 
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Thanks AA, that will help me out a bunch. I was hoping to see if there was a mic out there for ambient sound which would have been cheap but well made. But I guess I will be spending a few saw bucks. I will be looking into the the recording devises which you have considered.

As for the shotgun, I do have a Sennheiser MKH-416 for dialogue and foley sessons.

Thanks again for taking the time and all your help.
 
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shoot the scene two times once for video then closer for sound. use clap board. you can put the mike very close and it can be in the scene on second shoot. then marry them up in post and you will have the best possible sound for the money( put a foam on mikes to keep the spikes out)
 
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jammer said:
(put a foam on mikes to keep the spikes out)
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Foam does nothing to prevent volume spikes. It is used as wind protection. The thicker the foam, the more wind protection, but then you will start to dull the sound, which is why blimps were developed.

Spikes are controlled by limiters which provide almost instantaneous volume attenuation.
 
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Thank you A.A.

I decided to go with the suggestions you gave and got these items.

Audio Technica AT8022

Fostex FR2-LE and I just got in today and can't wait to play with it.

Now all I need to round out my sound equipment is a pair of decent headphones and sound gear is ready for production day! :yes:

Again, thanks for all your help on this board.
 
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ROC said:
@wridingrlm - Sony MDR-7506 headphones.
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Thanks ROC, looking at some of the reviews it seems like these are a good deal. I was going to get Sennheiser but hell, peeps are really giving this model high praise.

Again, thanks and I will check around my town to see if anyone has them or I will have to wait to order them online. Sucks though, I really want to play with the Fostex tonight. I guess I'll just start a fire in the pit, get a blanket, get my growler of IPA and start reading the owner's manual.
 
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