Do I think too much?

ussinners

ussinners

I'm working on my next movie, and I desperately don't want to make the same mistakes twice. But, if you don't know the first mistakes, then you're bound to repeat them.

I have noticed that half the people don't get the meanings from my individual scenes. I don't know if it's the way I shot it, or presented it. I do know I used very little exposition in my dialogue. This is true in my latest script. I did use a tremendous amount of tiny actions, that if a viewer thought for a moment should be able to draw a reasonable conclusion.

An example: Dad is getting a BJ from Mom and he's being pretty violent about it. He grabs Mom's head and violently pounds it till he spits in her mouth. Then he grabs her by her hair, pulls her up and gives a huge sloppy kiss. All this while 9-year-old Tim watches from another room.

The gist of this scene is the boy gets his first view and erection from watching this violent sexual act. But, if you think for a moment, Dad pulling mom up and shoving his tongue down her throat after blowing his load in there is not the norm for straight men. Later on we find out that Dad died of AIDS.

My movie is littered with little actions like this. Am I thinking too much about the little things? Do you folks think about or get little moments like this, either when making or watching movies?
 
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All I have read is that small child sees a violent sex act perpetrated by his father who will die of AIDS. If I may be so bold to ask... What is the point of your film? How does this scene affect the story/plot and the characters(s)? Why should I as a member of the audience care? Is it the opening of the film or a flashback? What is the focus of your film? Can you describe it in ten words or less? Without any of this information the scene seems to be gratuitous. It may have meaning to you, but you have to communicate why it is important to your audience in a way that they can understand and empathize - or be horrified - or not care at all.
 
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ussinners said:
pulling mom up and shoving his tongue down her throat after blowing his load in there is not the norm for straight men
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Do you believe the act you described above IS the norm for gay men? Some gay men may take offense to that. Then again, others may agree. Then again, some straight men may also not find anything wrong with what you suggest is not "their norm." My point is that when you are dealing with issues that are so subjective, such as interpretations of sexual deviance vs. normalcy, many people are certainly not going to get your subtle inference -- simply because they don't agree with your viewpoint. It's not the viewers fault that they don't get your symbolism. They're not of the same mindset as you.
 
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ussinners said:
I have noticed that half the people don't get the meanings from my individual scenes.
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That means that half the people watching your movie
get the meanings of your individual scenes. That's damn
good. I doubt you will ever reach 100% so what
percentage are you hopping for? Put any random group
of 20 people in a room and show then a David Lynch
film like "Eraserhead" or "Wild At Heart" or even a Kubrick
film like "2001" or "Barry Lyndon" and I don't think half
of them will get the meaning of individual scenes.

Regarding the scene you mention: Do you want each
viewer (over half of them) to understand that the father
is bisexual by watching this one scene? Or is it okay with
you that they don't get the meanings of the individual
scene until the truth is revealed later? Is it important that
more than half of your audience meanings of that individual
scenes as they watch it?

Maybe you aren't over thinking - maybe your expectations
of an audience are too high.
 
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I know this is kinda an echo, but yeah, having a scene meaning built around "norms" esp. sexual ones is gonna lead to misunderstanding. Not to put too fine a point on it, but plenty of straight guys have a thing for their own spunk, plenty of gay guys don't...

But what I'm wondering is how much does it matter that the audience understands exactly what you intend as the subtext for a given scene? I wouldn't have gotten bi/aids/etc. from the scene you describe, but I def. would have gotten a "beeeeeeeeeesh" feeling from it... and I think most people would make a clear connection to the main character's psychosexual issues later. Idk, in my opinion it's fine in cases like this to let people make their own connections, because the ones they come up with will probly have more emotional resonance for them. Also, complicated and even opaque meanings in individual scenes will make the movie awesome the 2nd time a viewer sees it...
 
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I want to clarify something. The example is just one of many that take place throughout. Not all of them are about homosexuality or sex. They're just little things that later on you might go back and say "Oh, that fits", or "Aha".

Is it important that from the kiss you find out he's gay? No, not at all. It's not even the focus of the scene. But, later on when you find out he's gay, it's something you might think back on and get a little "Aha".

Another example: Tim kills his first victim and feels up her dead body. We end up with a CU on her face. We stay there for a few moments and finally Tim holds his used condom over her mouth and drops it in. The gist is the killing and the disgusting action of dropping the condom (this has disgusted so many viewers). But, there's something else; On the CU, she's clearing wearing a pearl necklace. It's not the focus of the shot. But, it's clearly there. Later on, Tim goes out and gives his date the pearl necklace. During the killing scene it's nothing. But, later on it should be an Aha moment. Is it absolutely necessary for the audience to realize it? No. But, it would be nice. This particular example is a nice character trait of trophy saving. Then drop in the bizarre nature of giving it to someone you like.

I personally just think these little things add dimension to the characters. It makes them truer and more realistic. But, if no one is getting it, it kind of makes them useless.

Alcove it's a simple portrait of a serial killer.

John: I don't think it's the "norm" per say. But, gay men are certainly not afraid of semen the way straight men are. My friends and co-workers speak pretty bluntly. Polled, not one straight guy wants to go near a chicks mouth after she's blown him. Even if she doesn't swallow. Every woman confirmed that their guys pretty much want them to brush their teeth before going near them again. Many of the gay men I know are obsessed with the stuff. Are all men that way? No. But, I'd be willing to bet majority would say this is true. Even if they didn't feel that way personally.

Directorik: I doubt 50% get everything. But, the ones that enjoy it, understand more then the ones that don't. The good reviewers get the story, the bad ones don't. I had one guy write that the movie could have done without many scenes. Not a few, many. When I asked for an example, he said the bathroom scene in the beginning. This is one shot about 20 seconds of Tim flushing the toilet, with his head hung low, he gets his toothbrush and toothpaste out of the medicine cabinet. He holds the mirrored cabinet open with his head and turns on the water. On the surface, that's pretty useless. But, later on we find out Tim avoids mirrors. How many normal people avoid looking in the mirror in the morning? It's right in front of you as you brush your teeth or wash or face. If you don't have a mirrored medicine cabinet, then you're well in the minority.

As for the BJ kiss scene, you wouldn't even think about it while it's happening. You might get it after you find out he was gay. Which I guess is my basic question, am I concentrating too hard on the little things? I certainly created the character study I wanted. I think I missed a little on the narrative, but that's my first time screenwriter's fault. I think I've fixed that for my next project. But, it's always been the little things that fascinated me, and I'm not sure if I concentrated on them too much, and could have done a better job with a much broader stroke.
 
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ussinners said:
Directorik: I doubt 50% get everything. But, the ones that enjoy it, understand more then the ones that don't. The good reviewers get the story, the bad ones don't.
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Yet you said that you've noticed about half the people
DO get the meanings from your individual scenes - that's
excellent and you should be thrilled that you have reached
a full 50% of your audience.

There is also the possibility that the reviewers who don't
get the story aren't "bad". I know it's MUCH more comfortable
to dismiss the reviewers who don't get the story as bad. But
maybe they aren't as "bad" as you think.

I do think you're over thinking all this.

ussinners said:
I personally just think these little things add dimension to the characters. It makes them truer and more realistic. But, if no one is getting it, it kind of makes them useless.
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No it doesn't. You are the filmmaker. Put in what YOU want to
put in - that's never "useless". Know that not everyone will get
everything and that should easy your mind a bit. And be very
happy that on your last project a full 50% of the people seeing
it got it. And, if you're right, the only people who didn't get it are
bad reviewers anyway so why would them not getting it even
matter?
 
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I think the question of are you focusing too much on the little things depends almost entirely on whether they are all you are using to tell the story. It sounds like they are not, if your focus is on using them to create dimension.

I guess my question after reading your 2nd post is how much are you relying on your audience to be constantly referencing back to previous scenes? I think that most people watching movies tend to get "swept along", they are thinking about what happens next not what happened at the beginning. If it's something that you think is really important for most of your audience to notice I do think that you need to "punch" it. For better or worse, most people are used to being told when they need to notice something.

But if this isn't an issue of "need" but more one of enriching I really don't need think you need to sweat. Personally there is almost nothing I love more than seeing an amazing movie and then going back a 2nd time and realizing that there are new layers and meanings that "pop" once you know the whole story. Just make sure that your movie is awesome on the "big things," know that people who do love the little things will love your movie on multiple levels.
 
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I don't want to get too detailed...but...

If you want to portray that the father is bi-sexual, you'll want to 1) obviously show that he 'wants' the ejaculation from himself. However you want to show this. 2) Vaginal sex doesn't do it for him, he wants anal. 3) His wife's hair is short.

Even all of that doesn't immediately suggest the man is bi-sexual to some people. Although if you do make the man violent to the woman it *will* suggest that the man is violent and has not respect for women (unless the woman loves it, and it's a kink thing).

And you want to young boy to see all of this (with the addition of violence), and get aroused? What's the point? The boy becomes gay from this? The boy becomes violent from this? The boy learns this is the norm and begins treating his women this way? The boy grows up and is attracted to men and submission, and may be conflicted about this or not. What does the AIDS portion of the plot mean, and how does it influence the boy later in life?

I just don't have enough information to know if what you're doing is working or not.

Thanks.
 
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Honestly, the dad should be watching the TOP GUN men's volleyball scene, during the BJ. Also, have your actress put a big glob of cottage cheese in her mouth so it can ooze out while they kiss! :lol::lol::lol:
 
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HZ: I don't want people to be looking back. But I know personally when I watch a movie, a lot doesn't make sense till something is revealed later, and then I smile. I love clever little bits.

I agree with you on finding new things on multiple viewings. Unfortunately, while 50 % enjoy Us Sinners, it's not something they're watching a second and third time. Which makes me sad.

M1chae1 said:
And you want to young boy to see all of this (with the addition of violence), and get aroused? What's the point?
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Dad's only appearance is his BJ during the opening credits. It fades into Tim getting a BJ and killing the prostitute. Dad is mentioned numerous times by Mom later, and Tim tells his date that Dad died of AIDS.

SPOILER ALERT: I'm mentioning this because it's funny and pathetic at the same time. One of the worst reviews I got was from a major site and the reviewer not only ripped me 5 new assholes, but gave a blow by blow description of the entire movie. Opening to shocking conclusion, spoilers for everyone to read. The problem is, at least 75% of what he wrote was incorrect. I asked the site to only remove the ending spoiler. But, they were so pissed they removed the entire review and fired the guy. He now has his own site and copies and pastes the review all over the net. Anyway, he writes "Tim reveals the source of his psychoses: he caught his dad in the basement with “some guy’s thingy in his mouth.”

Can you imgaine? I made a movie where a guy murders numerous people because his dad was gay and Tim saw him sucking dick? What kind of homophobe would I have to be to write something like that? Of course he obviously missed Tim's next sentence "Did they yell for me to leave? No. They both... They both..." and he breaks down. Now, I know what some of you are thinking, you didn't actually have him say "molested or raped" so how are people to know that's what you meant? Performance and common sense.

Even with that confession, from watching Mom and Tim, the viewer knows it wasn't just Dad that created Tim's rage.

Directorik: When I said bad, I meant reviews, not reviewers. Some of the bad reviewers have had relevant points, and their writing is excellent.

The reason I over think is because I want to do the best job possible. I'm still very much a novice. I did very good on Us Sinners, but there's a ton of room for improvement.

Scoopicman: Sorry man, I have something about ten times better in Us Sinners. As a few people have mentioned it's the "Shite".

One last thing: I thought this was so cool when I read it. Mom is not a nice woman. There's a Milk of Magnesia scene, and one reviewer wrote "Milk of Magnesia = M.O.M". It made me laugh, because none of us making the movie thought of that.
 
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ussinners said:
Scoopicman: Sorry man, I have something about ten times better in Us Sinners. As a few people have mentioned it's the "Shite"
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CRAP!!!! I'm afraid to ask. :D I'll have to pony up and check it out or perhaps trade you for one of my features.


As for the subject at hand, I would think that having the child watch BARNEY or THE WIGGLES would be enough to push him over the edge!
 
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My advice is probably a little on the simplistic side, but I agree with Directorik and others. It sounds like you're on the right track for what you want to do. It's just a question of trusting your instincts, keeping yourself open to the fact that the whole process never stops being a learning experience while keeping as true to your vision as possible. It sounds like you might be reaching for too large an audience. It would seem you already have people paying attention and understanding what you're doing. Focus on them, and it should just keep building from there.

Sorry I can't be more specific than that.
 
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Why is it so desperately important that an audience "get" the scene?

The best films, even action blockbusters, don't provide answers -- they provide questions. It's an audience's moment-to-moment engagement with those questions that makes the entertainment. Otherwise it's not a narrative, it's just a lecture.
 
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Joker B said:
Why is it so desperately important that an audience "get" the scene?

The best films, even action blockbusters, don't provide answers -- they provide questions. It's an audience's moment-to-moment engagement with those questions that makes the entertainment. Otherwise it's not a narrative, it's just a lecture.
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Here here!
 
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