Pay/no pay and asking for help

citychik

citychik

Hello all,
Having a little personal dilemma lately, in two parts... Here's Part I: I need to ask some people to work on a video project for me for free. I know this is routine, and I've done it too, but that was when I did mostly everything and just needed a few hands to help. I have no problem indicating "no pay" in a casting notice or email but, with the economy the way it is, I dread saying to someone's face that I can't pay them to help me out for 2 or 3 days. I've been networking, so some people I want to ask are "new friends" - no history - but I'm hoping my script will entice them. How do I say it? I don't want to sound like I'm trying to take advantage of someone's talents (I'll help them out on their projects in exchange).

Part II: There will be some people in the cast (non-union) and probably just "dept. heads" in the crew whom I will have to pay. Can I pay them as contractors, or must they be employees? I'm talking actors, DP, sound, etc.

Thanks!
 
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I could be very, very wrong here, but I would GUESS that you'd pay them as contractors. That's just the one that makes sense in my head.

As for the not being able to pay some people, you're planning to hold audtions, right? You're going to put up a casting notice in some form, right? I would think that as long as you indicate exactly who's getting paid and who isn't and why in both of those situations then you really shouldn't have any problems, and the people involved shouldn't be able to complain.

I suppose you could get that in writing as well, their understanding that they won't get paid.
 
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barnaclelapse said:
I could be very, very wrong here, but I would GUESS that you'd pay them as contractors. That's just the one that makes sense in my head.

As for the not being able to pay some people, you're planning to hold audtions, right? You're going to put up a casting notice in some form, right? I would think that as long as you indicate exactly who's getting paid and who isn't and why in both of those situations then you really shouldn't have any problems, and the people involved shouldn't be able to complain.

I suppose you could get that in writing as well, their understanding that they won't get paid.
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Hi and thanks for your response.

I realize when I edited my first post, I cut out an important part -- so now it's not clear. I'm NOT worried about my casting notices and unpaid actors - done that before (which is what I wrote).

What is bothering me is asking people to work on my CREW for no pay. I met a filmmaker recently who got her DP for free, a very skilled dude who felt the material was so good he took it on for no pay, but I just can't figure out how to ask someone to their face to be a key crew member without getting paid. You see craigslist ads asking people to be on crews for nothing all the time, but I want to interact with people directly to ask (make contact via phone or email or preferably ask in person). I don't really have a regular reliable posse yet myself. I'd love to get a good DP like she did. And, for example, I need a makeup person to create some scars, but what to offer instead of money?

Even though I know my material is really good too, just wondering how to word it/approach asking for major help like that.

This is a short, btw, and would only require min. 2 days, max 5 (still breaking it down & figuring that out).

Oh, and if anyone has a definite answer for the contractor or employee question, would appreciate it! Thanks!
 
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Anyone who you are going to pay will be a contractor - unless you are a business and want to take on the burden of reporting the income of employees, withholding taxes, SS, offering health benefits, etc. BTW, have you formed your LLC?

If nothing else, you should be covering - at minimum - the out-of-pocket expenses of the people who are working for free. You should also give them something extra as a gesture of thanks and respect if and when they finish the project with you.

One of the best things you can do for your cast and crew is to pre-produce your project down to the last detail. Nothing puts off people who are donating their time for free than to feel that their time has been wasted. It's bad enough that talent and other members of the crew have to wait around for set-ups - which is expected - but other unnecessary delays are inexcusable. Make sure that you feed your cast and crew well, have plenty of knoshies and liquid refreshments, and a comfortable place to relax when their talents are not required on the set. Keep everyone in the loop as best you can. Have all the paperwork completed (permits, etc.) and ready to be signed (release forms and the like). You are a general mapping out a campaign; prior to the battle you need comprehensive intelligence, 90% of the battle itself is planning and logistics - you leave nothing to chance. If you're well prepared, feed you cast and crew well, make them feel important to and involved with the project, and treat them as the professionals they are or aspire to be they will work hard for you.
 
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try going to college campuses where people are doing film majors.l
Go to the professor and ask if there is anyone who is particularly talented.
I'm very sure college students aren't looking to get paid to do crew work. Also
they can be very good at what they do.
Just a suggestion, good luck!
 
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Alcove Audio said:
Anyone who you are going to pay will be a contractor - unless you are a business and want to take on the burden of reporting the income of employees, withholding taxes, SS, offering health benefits, etc. BTW, have you formed your LLC?
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I haven't established my LLC yet, but will soon. So my production co. will be a business, but I'd rather pay people as contractors and not employees.

If nothing else, you should be covering - at minimum - the out-of-pocket expenses of the people who are working for free. You should also give them something extra as a gesture of thanks and respect if and when they finish the project with you.

One of the best things you can do for your cast and crew is to pre-produce your project down to the last detail. Nothing puts off people who are donating their time for free than to feel that their time has been wasted. It's bad enough that talent and other members of the crew have to wait around for set-ups - which is expected - but other unnecessary delays are inexcusable. Make sure that you feed your cast and crew well, have plenty of knoshies and liquid refreshments, and a comfortable place to relax when their talents are not required on the set. Keep everyone in the loop as best you can. Have all the paperwork completed (permits, etc.) and ready to be signed (release forms and the like). You are a general mapping out a campaign; prior to the battle you need comprehensive intelligence, 90% of the battle itself is planning and logistics - you leave nothing to chance. If you're well prepared, feed you cast and crew well, make them feel important to and involved with the project, and treat them as the professionals they are or aspire to be they will work hard for you.
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Yes, of course, I plan to cover expenses - there just won't be a lump o'cash going to them as payment! And I'm in the planning/pre-pro stage right now, working on all the details now. I do have a friend who is a gourmet caterer, so hopefully can get a good deal on good food, if she's willing to take on the task.
 
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Zensteve said:
How is that any different than asking your actors to work for nothing?
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Well, it's different this way: To get actors, "no pay" will be in the casting notice, so you know right away that whoever responds is willing to work for credit, meals, and a DVD, and not hoping to get paid money. It basically weeds them out from the start.

To get crew, I don't want to rely on ads alone - I plan on contacting people whom I've met through networking, or friends of friends, mostly people I don't know that well, but the process will be a conversation rather than an ad. It's easy to specify in an ad for actors that a project is "no pay," but it seems harder - to me - to say it to someone face-to-face. I want to know how to say it in a way that is unapologetic and gets someone excited about working on it, but I'm afraid I'll get flustered because I've always been resourceful and self-reliant, and it's hard for me to ask for favors. Capisce?

.
 
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citychik said:
Hi and thanks for your response.

I realize when I edited my first post, I cut out an important part -- so now it's not clear. I'm NOT worried about my casting notices and unpaid actors - done that before (which is what I wrote).

What is bothering me is asking people to work on my CREW for no pay. I met a filmmaker recently who got her DP for free, a very skilled dude who felt the material was so good he took it on for no pay, but I just can't figure out how to ask someone to their face to be a key crew member without getting paid. You see craigslist ads asking people to be on crews for nothing all the time, but I want to interact with people directly to ask (make contact via phone or email or preferably ask in person). I don't really have a regular reliable posse yet myself. I'd love to get a good DP like she did. And, for example, I need a makeup person to create some scars, but what to offer instead of money?

Even though I know my material is really good too, just wondering how to word it/approach asking for major help like that.

This is a short, btw, and would only require min. 2 days, max 5 (still breaking it down & figuring that out).

Oh, and if anyone has a definite answer for the contractor or employee question, would appreciate it! Thanks!
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Well, I would think that it would be fine if you were completely honest with them about your finances up front. I'm guessing film crew guys just starting out are as eager for work experience as an actor might be.

I really like Alcove's idea.
 
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we're working with a mixed crew paid and unpaid. Just make sure you have paper work on the guys you pay (I-9's and W-9) talk to your accountant he can help you with that. One other thing is make sure you feed everyone well. People who are working for free will stick around longer if you do.
JM2cents.
 
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agcamerasound said:
we're working with a mixed crew paid and unpaid. Just make sure you have paper work on the guys you pay (I-9's and W-9) talk to your accountant he can help you with that. One other thing is make sure you feed everyone well. People who are working for free will stick around longer if you do.
JM2cents.
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I-9's and W-9's - so you're saying they have to be employees? I know independent contractors don't need to submit I-9's. From IRS's website, they say "The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if you, the person for whom the services are performed, have the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result."

Wouldn't workers like a DP, or scripty, and the like, be considered independent contractors under that definition? Would love to hear from filmmakers who have paid such crew members and how you've done it.

Regarding the unpaid crew and actors, I have every intention of paying their expenses for travel and giving them great food. My question is how do you ask a skilled person to work for no pay? What has been your approach to raising the issue?

There's a post from directorik from a long time ago that has stayed in my mind. It's here: http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=14475&p=76610#post76610

In that thread, he wrote - and I hope you will chime in here, Directorik - that when he's done something very low-budget where he can't pay everyone, he tries to pay for three of the crew. So, in looking at the list, it's fairly long and those positions require decent skills and a good head on the shoulders - so, what I'm fretting over is how to ask good people to work in the positions that you cannot pay. What do I tell them? How do I say it? I guess I'm really looking for the angle on addressing the issue in my asking.
 
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If your not paying through a company, you don't need to fill out I-9s.

However, if your going to claim the payment on your taxes, you do.

Say your shooting a film for 10k out of your pocket. You can tell someone they are being payed 100/day, and at the end of the 3 day shoot, you pay them 300 (cash or check). You have them sign an employment form that says you did pay them, and you have a right to use their creative work.

that's all.


If you claiming the money your paying them for taxes, it gets more complicated.
 
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citychik said:
In that thread, he wrote - and I hope you will chime in here, Directorik - that when he's done something very low-budget where he can't pay everyone, he tries to pay for three of the crew. So, in looking at the list, it's fairly long and those positions require decent skills and a good head on the shoulders - so, what I'm fretting over is how to ask good people to work in the positions that you cannot pay. What do I tell them? How do I say it? I guess I'm really looking for the angle on addressing the issue in my asking.
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Sorry for the double post.


Sell yourself. Sell your product.

Let them know straight up, and let them know your passionate about the film, and hopefully they will sacrafice some of there time for a project they think will do well.
 
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If you can get everyone to show up on your shoot day(s) for free and everyone actually knows their job then you have beaten the odds. If a paid gigs come up then some crew members will defect, so have back up choices!
Also in the absence of a signed release AND absence of "consideration" (check cashed or cash receipt) then crew people who contributed to the artistic look of the film (art department, DP, set designers) can make a legitimate claim that they are co-owners of a joint work. So you need releases to say "In exchange for good and valuable consideration I render my services as....." or "in exchange for back end points...."
 
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Blade_Jones said:
If you can get everyone to show up on your shoot day(s) for free and everyone actually knows their job then you have beaten the odds. If a paid gigs come up then some crew members will defect, so have back up choices!
Also in the absence of a signed release AND absence of "consideration" (check cashed or cash receipt) then crew people who contributed to the artistic look of the film (art department, DP, set designers) can make a legitimate claim that they are co-owners of a joint work. So you need releases to say "In exchange for good and valuable consideration I render my services as....." or "in exchange for back end points...."
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Yes, I understand that have release forms at the ready. Paperwork is not an issue here.

My dilemma is figuring out how to word my request to someone for their services. How do you get talented people to commit for no pay?
 
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citychik said:
Yes, I understand that have release forms at the ready. Paperwork is not an issue here.

My dilemma is figuring out how to word my request to someone for their services. How do you get talented people to commit for no pay?
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You have to put on your sales hat and "sell" them on the idea that you are a profrssional, assembling a professional crew to make a professional project. That the budget is what it is, but that you commit your life and your sacred honor that you will do everything in your power to reach the goal of a completed project that they will be proud to have their name attached to. You might sweeten that with some nominal pay. "I just don't have the budget to pay you what you are worth, but I want you on this project so badly I will find the money to pay you $30 (or $50) a day to cover your expenses."
 
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"Good" crew people don't work for free. They are in demand and earn a living in the film business. Even if you get crew people to agree to work for say $100 - $150 some may defect the last minute when they find union work.

Don't cut corners on lighting. Get someone fresh out of film school and your whole movie could be compromised. Ideally maybe you can find a DP who is really good at lighting.
 
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Blade_Jones said:
"Good" crew people don't work for free. They are in demand and earn a living in the film business. Even if you get crew people to agree to work for say $100 - $150 some may defect the last minute when they find union work.

Don't cut corners on lighting. Get someone fresh out of film school and your whole movie could be compromised. Ideally maybe you can find a DP who is really good at lighting.
Click to expand...

You generally "upgrade" people. Find Someone who has been an operator or a 1st AC, or key grip and make them DP, find somebody who has been a boom operator, and make them sound recordist, etc... The opportunity for them to do the job they really want to do will sometimes convince them to take the lower pay for the credit. My DP (who was great) had spent 20 years as a camera operator in LA. He agreed to work for $100 a day because he wanted to add the DP credit to his resume.
 
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In my experience "good" crew people often work
for free. Here in Los Angeles there are many, very
good, very skilled, very talented crew people who
will offer their services for free for the right person.
In my experience is all comes down to "who you
know" - frighteningly like in the paid world.

I do a lot of free gigs. One of my reasons is I can
ask for a return favor.

Gonzo has had the same experience as I have.
Upgrading crew people is a great way to get
really good people to work for free or very little
money.
 
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Gonzo_Entertainment said:
You have to put on your sales hat and "sell" them on the idea that you are a professional, assembling a professional crew to make a professional project. That the budget is what it is, but that you commit your life and your sacred honor that you will do everything in your power to reach the goal of a completed project that they will be proud to have their name attached to. You might sweeten that with some nominal pay. "I just don't have the budget to pay you what you are worth, but I want you on this project so badly I will find the money to pay you $30 (or $50) a day to cover your expenses."
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I would like to add my own reflections on this, as someone who has worked on around 8 projects, and is now trying to get his own, first, small project together.

I think that even if you have established good connections or relations with those whom you would like to work with, and whom you have worked with in the past--be they crew OR cast-- getting the principals involved requires more than "selling" the project.

In relation to my own specific circumstances, despite my experience to date, for a number of people it seems that something more concrete is necessary in order to persuade them to 'come on board'. This could be in the form of placing a finished script in front of them, or actually possessing relevant equipment ie. a camera or camera and lights. One or both of these will add considerable 'weight' to your credibility. Most especially if you are asking people to do things for you for no money/very little money.

ETA:This might be patently obvious to some, but in the absence of any 'hard and fast rules' and no ready/quick access to texts which can provide guidance, this process has the feeling of learning 'on the job' or 'as you go'. In relation to small indie projects--let alone the large, budgeted productions--I find the process slow and cumbersome.
 
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