Hello and some questions

A "hello" and questions about putting together cast and crew

Hi everyone - new here, and have a question.

I am planning to shoot a short film (digital) this fall and want to do it as professionally as I can on a miniscule budget. I estimate it will take three or fours days to shoot, based on my script breakdown. I know a few people peripherally who might be able to help out in various crew positions, but they're not close enough to ask them to work for free. So, I need to put the word out to get people involved. While I don't mind working with newbies (I have very minimal experience myself), I am going to need at least one or two people who know what they're doing and have some experience.

I also need eight actors and a bunch of extras. I'm looking for certain ethnicities, and some seniors, so I know I should post casting notices soon and get cracking on that. I'm not really worried about that process -- I'm more worried about finding good people to work as my crew.

So, here's my big question. Do I look for crew first before I look for actors? Or should I start the casting process first? I'm also in the process of looking for funding, so I just kind of feel like I should wait until I know I have the dough. Or should I just set the wheels in motion before I have crew and money in place and get actors "attached" before anything?

Thanks.
 
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Welcome to indietalk.

I think you should wait until you have the money
and the shoot dates. When you can offer the essential
specifics to crew and cast, that makes you look more
professional. You don't want to find crew willing to
work for four days for free and then tell them you'll get
back to them when you know the four days you will
need them. I know that when someone asks me to help
out for free I feel much more respected when they can
tell me the exact dates, location and hours I will be
needed.

Set a schedule before you hold auditions for actors and
ask crew people to help.
 
Welcome!

Just a little more food for thought...

The two key crew members to whom you should try to pay a decent days wage are the DP and the production sound mixer/boom-op. You should also try to pony up something for the key cast members. Everyone else will be working for the experience, but give them a decent stipend. If you treat people well, meaning treat them as the professionals they aspire to be and set a nice table - good meals, knoshies, drinks, etc. - and make sure there is someplace comfortable where they can relax, they will work hard for you and come back the next day.

You should also pre-produce your project to death. Work it all out to the very last detail; thoroughly scout every location for its look and its sound, make a list of every piece of gear you currently have and will need (do the same with props), make sure that all of your paperwork (permits, releases, contracts, etc.) is in order, remember "stupid" things like a first aid kit, a fire extinguisher, a basic tool kit, extras of all kinds (batteries, bulbs, gels, scripts, tapes, flash cards, whatever). Have the key crew and cast in for at least two preproduction meetings. Being ultra-prepared shows that you aspire to be a complete professional and your cast and crew - knowing that you are doing everything you can so that you are not wasting their time - will respond accordingly.

Once the script leaves the page - at least at this level - your project becomes about other people rather about than you. Yes, it's your project, and, yes, you have the final word on everything that happens; but these people are sacrificing their time and contributing their varied levels of experience to assist you with achieving your vision. So besides treating them well you have to foster an atmosphere of involvement. If your cast and crew feel that their opinions and contributions are at the least considered and occasionally incorporated into the project, that feeling of involvement, plus your professional treatment of them, tells them that they are important to the project and important to you.

Oh, yeah - read my blogs on production sound here on indietalk.

These are the things that will make your project a success.
 
Welcome!

Just a little more food for thought...

The two key crew members to whom you should try to pay a decent days wage are the DP and the production sound mixer/boom-op.
This is true, he's not just saying that because he's a sound mixer. You are talking about the dept. heads for picture and sound here. Your most important elements. You may also want to ask them to keep their pay confidential, as it may get around and other members may feel you've got more money than you say, even though you don't. The boom-op can usually be worked out as a package deal with the sound mixer. They know boom-ops they work well with.
 
Thanks to everyone for all the advice.

I think you should wait until you have the money and the shoot dates. When you can offer the essential specifics to crew and cast, that makes you look more professional. You don't want to find crew willing to work for four days for free and then tell them you'll get back to them when you know the four days you will need them. I know that when someone asks me to help out for free I feel much more respected when they can tell me the exact dates, location and hours I will be
needed.

Set a schedule before you hold auditions for actors and ask crew people to help.
Hmm, well I do have a target dates that I am hoping to shoot, and so I'm trying to find money that will make it happen. I hope to get funding from outside sources, but I do have a backup, in case I can't -- my husband has said he is willing to give me some money for it - but it won't cover everything. I guess that's why I'm nervous about it and not sure what to do next. The day he offered it to me, I was really happy and thought, "Wow - now it can actually happen," but now I feel like I should find other ways rather than use cash from his retirement account. As for the dates, it's a target weekend in the Fall but if I can't make it, I'd have to push it to the spring. So, I basically have tentative plans. I thought it would be more palatable to someone who might want to contribute money to this project if I could say, "Hey, I've got so-and-so lined up to shoot, and whatserface in the lead role," and so on. Not that they will be big names but will have experience and are pros, so it looks like I'm a pro, too, and not just some hopeful wannabe. Am I wrong in this thinking when it comes to a short?
 
Hmm, well I do have a target dates... I'm trying to find money... I hope to get funding from outside sources... I guess that's why I'm nervous about it and not sure what to do next.
This is what pre-production is all about! You've got your script, now you put together your shooting script and determine the logistics of your project. Who do I need (cast & crew), what do I need (equipment & props), when do I want to do it (shooting dates), where do I need it (locations), why do I want to do this (are you crazy?). [Sorry, just needed to fill out who, what, when, where & why; here comes the how...] Answering these questions tells you how much money you will need. And, the more informed you are about your own project the better chance you have of attracting investors. If you can shove several pages of facts and figures in front of an investor they will at least be willing to give you a hearing.
 
Thanks to everyone for all the advice.


Hmm, well I do have a target dates that I am hoping to shoot, and so I'm trying to find money that will make it happen. I hope to get funding from outside sources, but I do have a backup, in case I can't -- my husband has said he is willing to give me some money for it - but it won't cover everything. I guess that's why I'm nervous about it and not sure what to do next.
I sure understand and have been in the exact same place you’re in
- most of us here have. Which is why I offered the advice I did.
If you have to push back the shoot date to the spring you don’t
want to have crew and actors committed to the fall date. They are
going to turn down other things - work, family time, a weekend
away - to be available for your movie. Then they have to
reschedule and commit to the fall date. If the fall date doesn’t
happen they will have to reschedule and recommit to yet another
date in the future.


I thought it would be more palatable to someone who might want to contribute money to this project if I could say, "Hey, I've got so-and-so lined up to shoot, and whatserface in the lead role," and so on. Not that they will be big names but will have experience and are pros, so it looks like I'm a pro, too, and not just some hopeful wannabe. Am I wrong in this thinking when it comes to a short?
I think you’re wrong. Since shorts don’t make money, your
financing is not going come from people you don’t know who are
looking for an investment. People who believe in YOU are going to
donate money because they believe in you - because they want to
help YOU. You aren’t going to get much money from people you
don’t know who are donating because you have “whatseface” in the
lead unless “whatseface” is a name. It’s just not a realistic
option. Alcove is right. You want to impress money people? Show
them your numbers and your schedule; including information on how
you are planning to return their investment. That’s MUCH more
impressive than dropping names of unknown but professional cast
and crew.

Treat the more experienced and professional cast and crew with the
respect they deserve. Don’t make them take the days off work or
miss time with the friends or family for a shoot date that might
not happen.

On the other hand if you do find investors who tell you they will
only invest if you have “so-and-so” lined up or “whatseface” in
the lead, then you can restructure your plan. At that point you
tell the actor or the crew that the only way you are getting the
money is if they commit. But now you’re going to have to offer
them more money - after all, without them you can’t get the
financing. But then you won’t have to ask for an open ended
commitment. You get the needed cast and crew; you get the
money. You get the money you can set firm dates.
 
Messing with retirement money is very risky, especially in today's economy. Getting investors for a short film is tough in any economy. The potential for making money from a short is pretty tight. I don't want to say impossible, but very tight is probably an understatement.

Before finding investors, you might want to look into where you're going to make money from your short. Festivals pay for winners, but you usually need money to enter the festivals. Contests for shorts often pay the winners, and there are free contests here and there, but also tons of competition.

In other words, more often than not, you will lose money on a short, and depending upon your budget for making the film, it will be pretty much spend spend spend, and maybe you'll be lucky to bring some in, but rarely will you bring in what you paid.

But have you thought of ramping down your script...maybe writing a script for a lower budget...sets and locations that you have free access to. Actor friends that you can get for free. Video rather than film. A camera that you know a friend has or has access to.

We all want to make the biggest and best, but sometimes we need to "live within our means".

Good luck though. I hope that I haven't been too much of a wet blanket!

Chris
 
You want to impress money people? Show them your numbers and your schedule; including information on how you are planning to return their investment . . . . On the other hand if you do find investors who tell you they will only invest if you have “so-and-so” lined up
Messing with retirement money is very risky, especially in today's economy. Getting investors for a short film is tough in any economy. The potential for making money from a short is pretty tight.
I am not seeking investors. I am seeking funding from contributors willing to donate, or from organizations that may be able to offer a grant (the film has a "socially conscious" message). My total budget is between $8-9,000, including 10% contingency. My husband says he's willing to contribute $5,000 (if I can't find another way).

have you thought of ramping down your script...maybe writing a script for a lower budget...sets and locations that you have free access to. Actor friends that you can get for free.
I wrote it with a low budget in mind. However, the story involves people of a specific ethnicity, and of certain ages, and is really the whole focus of the script. Out of the eight main actors I need, there are only 3 of them I'd need to pay. Even though I don't know any actors personally who fit the roles, and a casting director I spoke with was doubtful I could find anyone good (bah! I don't believe her), I really can't change that because that is pivotal to the story. I am in NYC, so hopefully won't have a hard time finding actors that can do it. I don't think the extras will be hard to find, either.

I know someone who did what she calls "guerilla casting" -- she stood on street corners in Chinatown passing out flyers to find one of her actors (she needed a 13-yr. old Vietnamese girl).

As for locations, most of the scenes take place in an apartment, and in outdoor locations (city streets, and a park), so not a lot of expense there.

Mostly my concern will be lighting for the apartment scenes, so I need a good DP, and (of course) audio, so I need a good sound person. I also need a skilled makeup person because one of the characters has big scars.
Video rather than film. A camera that you know a friend has or has access to.
I only have experience with digital, and will be editing it myself, so wouldn't be using film anyway. I am hoping to borrow my equipment or rent from DCTV which is very reasonably priced.

I've just gotten to this place where I feel unsure of which way to go next. I think, because this project is so important to me, that I'm also a little scared to move forward and make it a reality.
 
I've just gotten to this place where I feel unsure of which way to go next. I think, because this project is so important to me, that I'm also a little scared to move forward and make it a reality.

From my experience, that's normal. I just shot a commercial for an Amazon contest, and up until the time that I packed my camera, and went to the set to shoot, I was trying to think of reasons not to do it...I'm not going to win anyway, the actor flaked on me and I had to go with a second choice, blah blah blah.

The reality was that I was using new equipment that I wasn't comfortable with, and I was worried that I would fail. I didn't, and I think that I made a pretty funny commercial. I'll still probably lose though!:lol:

What I'm trying to say is stop looking for reasons not to, start finding reasons to get started. Once you're working on it, you'll feel much better. And if you have to take 5 grand from the husband, do it. Pay it back when you can. Get the film done.

And don't forget Craig's list to look for actors. It's worth a shot.

Chris
 
...My total budget is between $8-9,000, including 10% contingency...

whoa that seems like a lot of money for a short film.

since you've said that you have minimal experience, i don't think you should be spending anywhere past $5,000 on your short (and even that's being a little generous).

the feature film el mariachi was shot with a $7,000 budget (before the studio gave rodriguez more money) and that was a full length film shot on 16mm.
 
Just some thoughts on the size budget you'll need. I made a 33 minute short for about $6000 (doesn't include promotion, festivals entries, etc... that's just getting a finished movie in my hand). It was shot in 5 days.

I had some paid crew:
Sound recordist $100 a day (included his equipment)
DP $100 a day
1st AC $50 a day (included his HVX200A and redrock micro adapter)
Make-up $50 a day plus supplies
Editor $1000 flat rate to edit entire movie

Rental for Arri I light kit and all stands and misc gear $100 a day (they cut me a deal)
Fee for 1 location for 2 days $300 a day
Had some specialized costumes required (police, nurses, doctors) that I probably spent $400 or $500 on.

Making the movie on that budget meant that Production Manager, all PAs, all ADs, script supervisor, grips, set contruction, etc.. etc... all worked for free.

Just some insight on how things add up quickly. $5000 or $6000 on a 12 minute movie shot in 2 days, plenty of money. On a longer short shot in 4 or 5 days, cutting it really close.
 
themattcastro said:
keerazee said:
...My total budget is between $8-9,000, including 10% contingency...
whoa that seems like a lot of money for a short film.

since you've said that you have minimal experience, i don't think you should be spending anywhere past $5,000 on your short (and even that's being a little generous).

the feature film el mariachi was shot with a $7,000 budget (before the studio gave rodriguez more money) and that was a full length film shot on 16mm.

Gawd, how I hate how often El Mariachi gets referenced as an example of how to make a movie on the cheap. I mean, first of all, that was 17 years ago. Although digital filmmaking is very budget-friendly, inflation and the present economy affects lots of other things. Furthermore, wasn't it obvious how little money he spent? Don't we see a boom in a bunch of shots? Didn't the sound suck so much that the studio spent tons of money to fix it so the shit would be good enough for theatrical release? Didn't they come close to remaking the whole thing all over again? It is far from an example of a quality production on a low budget. But my point is not to debate that movie's merits or faults (so let's not go there); rather, it is to say there is a difference between a cheap, crappy movie and an inexpensive, quality movie.

As for the original poster's $8k budget, she said she did a script breakdown and figured it out. She's in NYC, where that is not an unreasonable figure for a short with eight actors plus extras and a crew that knows what it's doing. Of course, it's always possible to do it for less, but it is getting harder to find reliable people who will work on a crew for free.

I'm in NYC and just worked on a 2-week documentary "news" project where we were allotted $15/day for lunch (we had to get our own out in the field) and that barely covered half of what we spent.

I know someone who spent over $20k on her short, and it was just a two-day shoot. It has garnered many awards, and is being used to get funding for a feature-length version of the same story. If you want to just make something for fun or to learn, sure, you can spend nothing on a short, and it could be really cool. But if you want to do it like a pro, with hopes of getting into festivals, getting noticed, getting your name out there, maybe using it as a calling card for what you can do so others will hire you or fund you for bigger projects, you gotta spend a little more.

Think about it -- nowadays, $1k can go so quickly, therefore $8k will probably just be enough for a 3 or 4 day shoot.

.
 
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