Just My Personal Opinion

Research the festivals before you enter, most festivals are not "Sundance" and are very indie. There are fests for your film, if it is well made.

ussinners said:

It's what might bring ten more people into the theatre.

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It’s a rude awakening, isn’t it?

Festivals want people to pay to see movies. Just as much as
distributors and theater owners.

And us filmmakers. We like people in the theaters to see our
movies, too. Anything that might bring ten more into the
theater is something festivals, distributors and theater owners
want.

All of our hard work, talent, effort, sweat and determination
often doen’t mean a thing in the business. Wouldn’t it be nice
if those of us who deserve to get our films in festivals, got them
in?

Before your movie got into the Spooky Movie Red Eye Marathon how
many times had you paid to go?

The Marathon was hundreds of miles from my house, so I only went that one night. I very rarely go to the movies, I rent nowadays. People talking, cell phones, pointers and just plain assholes keep me from the theatre. IT WASN'T LIKE THAT WHEN I WAS A KID. Between the ages of 13 - 20 I went to the movies every week, if not daily. I saw TCM every day it played, and saw it twice a day. But, morons overrun theatres now, so I rent. But, I can easily watch between 60 - 90 movies a month.

Though I did have an excellent experience in LA in December. The Disney 3D movie was excellent in a magnificent theatre. First off, real popcorn and real butter you put on yourself. Comfortable seats, a balcony, large screen, great sound system. Plus before the movie they do a live stage show. It's the way going to the movies should be.

I understand festivals want people in the seats. You know how you do that? Show good movies. If you have a festival, choose the best movies, and the people will come. That's how you get a reputation and audience. If you have a festival that shows crap because you can have a few extra people in the seats, then you're not doing anyone a service. Reviewers will report on the crappy ass movies, and it'll just be an endless cycle.

I won't spend money anymore for festivals, because I honestly feel their fixed. Someone told me about a friend who runs a festival that had so many entries, most of them were still in the envelopes when the festival was taking place. That's just beyond wrong.

ussinners said:

I understand festivals want people in the seats. You know how you do that? Show good movies. If you have a festival, choose the best movies, and the people will come. That's how you get a reputation and audience. If you have a festival that shows crap because you can have a few extra people in the seats, then you're not doing anyone a service. Reviewers will report on the crappy ass movies, and it'll just be an endless cycle.

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You would think it would work this way... it's the same in the music biz, they ask bands how many people they can bring to bars. If you can bring 30 people, they book you, no matter how good you are, if you are an amazing band and you only bring five, they don't call you again. They don't look at the larger picture. They could become a reputable place that is known for good music if they build it up. Fast money beats slow money.

There are fests that show the good flicks, though.

ussinners said:

The Marathon was hundreds of miles from my house, so I only went that one night. I very rarely go to the movies, I rent nowadays.

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Exactly.

You were disappointed that very few people showed up. Very few
people show up to festivals unless there is a movie playing they
really want to see. And what people want to see is a movie made
by or starring someone they have heard of.

I understand festivals want people in the seats. You know how you do that? Show good movies.

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Showing good movies doesn’t do it. YOU don’t go to festivals. Even
when they show good movies. Without ever going to festivals you
are convinced that most festivals show movies that aren't as good
as yours. But you don’t go to them.

That, too, is beyond wrong. If fellow filmmakers doesn’t even got
to film festivals then it’s understandable that the general won’t
go. YOU don’t.

You should try it. First you should support your fellow filmmakers
by attending festivals. And second, the festival crowd (though
small) isn’t like a general crowd. No people talking, cell phones,
pointers or just plain assholes.

I’m not trying to convince you to enter any more festivals. I’m
only offering my personal opinion that most filmmakers don’t even
attend festivals unless their movie got in. If we supported film
festivals that showed movies made be unknowns (like us) starring
unknowns (like our casts) festivals would be more willing to show
good movies and not look for bad ones that have a “name”.

It’s up to YOU as an audience member to support good festivals.

I have seen more excellent movies at festivals that never find
distribution than movies coming out of the studios. Movies that
never even hit the rental market that you use.

You should try it.

Just my personal opinion.

Directorik...I agree with much of what you say. I am guilty of bitching about festivals but rarely support my local, "small" festival which is far from the Sundance prance. Thanks for the comments.

"it's the same in the music biz,"

I was in a band for many years, and this is true. But, my band was an actual exception. We never had a following, and we never advertised. We pretty much didn't do anything a band should do to get noticed. But, we were highly original, so no one ever left and we were always welcome to come back. But, we were the exception. Since, we never pursued a fan base we eventually broke up.

"Showing good movies doesn’t do it. YOU don’t go to festivals. Even when they show good movies. Without ever going to festivals you are convinced that most festivals show movies that aren't as good as yours. But you don’t go to them. "

But, I do see the crap that comes out that is distributed and it's garbage. I don't just rent movies with names, I pretty much see everything. While I should go to festivals in my area, I'm not going to support something I know is going to suck. It isn't hard to see a poster, read a synopsis or see stills and a trailer and know whether the movie is going to be any good. And most movies I rent that are loaded with festival logos usually suck. I mean really suck. Like "What the hell were the film makers thinking" kind of suck.

I've seen movies that have beaten Us Sinners in festivals, and they get across the board bad reviews. They have low ratings at imdb and most everyone talks poorly about them. I'm not saying Us Sinners is a God Send to horror fans, because it's split evenly down the middle. One half loves it, the other hates it with a deep seeded passion. But, at least half the people like it. These movies no one enjoys.

As far as getting people into the seats, promoters need to really pick and choose carefully. Because if they show crap, people aren't going to come back unless there's a name they like. But, if they choose really good movies, they might have fewer people, but those viewers will go home and tell their friends about the great films they saw. That's how you build a base. That's how you build longevity.

As far as the marathon Us Sinners was in. I asked the promoter and he told me the theatre did no advertising. None. The stupid thing is, this was in the middle of nowhere. Farms on either side, little towns with nothing to do. With a little effort they could have gotten people in the seats, but they didn't even try. I'm pretty sure this was a Saturday night from 7pm - 7am. They should have had people there till at least 1am. I would have been thrilled since Us Sinners had a prime 10pm slot.

ussinners said:

I do see the crap that comes out that is distributed and it's garbage. I don't just rent movies with names

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ussinners said:

My movie Us Sinners has been called (snip) the worst piece of shit ever made.

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ussinners said:

While I should go to festivals in my area, I'm not going to support something I know is going to suck.

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I really don't like to label people, but you are very bitter. Or cynical. Or just plain troll.

ussinners said:

theatre did no advertising. None. The stupid thing is, this was in the middle of nowhere. Farms on either side, little towns with nothing to do. With a little effort they could have gotten people in the seats

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Dude...

Little towns... middle of nowhere... farms on every corner of the compass...

You sent *your* film, to the middle of nowhere... and are surprised by this?

Aside from the whole "lack of population" thing going on, there's probably a very unrealistic expectation of how your film would be received in such areas.

ussinners said:

promoters need to really pick and choose carefully. Because if they show crap, people aren't going to come back unless there's a name they like. But, if they choose really good movies, they might have fewer people, but those viewers will go home and tell their friends about the great films they saw.

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I don't think you have any idea about how the film-fest circuit works.

ussinners said:

I pretty much see everything

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I doubt it.

I also doubt that you are submitting your film to appropriate festivals.

...and by "appropriate", I don't mean cornfields in the middle of Iowa.

Look at your target audience. Find them (heck, WithoutABox.com is free for looking), and find the specific festivals you want to aim for.

directorik said:

It’s up to YOU as an audience member to support good festivals.

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Do this!

Even the small local ones.

Local Fire Dept raising some extra bucks by charging a fiver for the latest local film-fest? You'll see things never seen before. Some may suck... but there's almost always a gem.

Aditionally, you'll learn a lot.

I've seen lots of great stuff at festivals. Lots of bad stuff too. The "name" stuff with the stars is usually on opening night, or at the prime evening slot, but you can watch true indies all day. Fests are a blast.

You have excellent reasons not to go to festivals.

So do many other people. So you shouldn’t be surprised when
feativals feel they need that little something extra to get
people to leave the living room and their rented movies and pay
to go.

You see crap that comes out. What you don’t see are the gems like
YOUR movie because you won’t go to film festivals.

Unfortunatly many other filmmakers are like you. Filmmakers making
movies you call "crap" isn't the problem. Filmmakers like you who
won't go to festivals are the problem.

ussinners said:

As far as getting people into the seats, promoters need to really pick and choose carefully. Because if they show crap, people aren't going to come back unless there's a name they like. But, if they choose really good movies, they might have fewer people, but those viewers will go home and tell their friends about the great films they saw.

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I agree with this. And you should be among the people in the
audience who sees that really good movie and goes home to tell
your friends about the great film you saw. Not among the people
waiting at home for your friends to find the good films for you.

I know I’m not going to convince you. You have made up your mind
that festivals are, in general, filled with crap and you won’t
support somthing you know is going to suck.

I hope just one or two other filmmakers reading will realize that
we filmmakers can’t just make movies and enter festivals - we
need to spend our limited money to support festivals and fellow
filmmakers.

If even 10% of filmmakers who enterd their own movie in a festival
went to two festivals a year and saw two movies in each festival,
the festival judges could be more daring in ther selection.

Buy you won't go.

I attened at least five different films festivals each year and
see at least three screenings in each festival - including short
films. I’m sad to say that more often than not I’m in a theater
with only the filmmakers and their friends or - in many cases - I
sit all alone in the theater.

You know, as a wannabe film maker, if I attended a film festival, it would be motivating to see other film makers come out and support my film, even if it did suck- hell movies are subjective in general. But, even if it did suck, I would think it would be interesting to see the many different styles of filimng, techniques, storylines, etc. Maybe I could take away a couple of tips just by going and seeing other people's work? Maybe just by showing my face a few times would help get me noticed instead of sitting home wondering how my movie is being reveiewed, maybe I would be able to network with other film makers, who knows what would happen if I went to more festivals than just where mine was playing? I was hoping the Indie industry would be more like this forum, where everyone is all about helping each other out, but Ussinners portays the Indie world much like the Hip-Hop music industry of dog-eat-dog," I got mine, the hell with you". I hope that maybe the festivals mentioned by Ussinner are the exception rather than the rule. Or am I simply too new and naiive,? Hell I'm still trying to figure out which end of the camera points to the scene.
"Where do the batteries go again?"

You ask a lot of excellent “if” questions EvsFX.

And IF you start attending festivals you will get your answers.
I’ve met many amazing people at film festivals - festivals where
I didn’t have a film entered. When I was a wannabe I volunteered
at a couple of festivals - sitting at the info desk, filling
coffee urns and cleaning up in the filmmakers lounge, taking tickets.

Do it! Start attending film festivals as a wannabe filmmaker.

EvsFX08 said:

. I hope that maybe the festivals mentioned by Ussinner are the exception rather than the rule. Or am I simply too new and naiive,?

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The good news is ussinners has very limited actual experience with
festivals. All festivals want excellent films. All of them. No
exceptions. They do their best to program good movies. If some
people don’t like some films that’s really no different than
distributors. They distribute films some people think are crap.

But I understand his frustration. I’ve entered movies I think are
quite good in festivals and haven’t been accepted. The first
time out I understand why some filmmakers get emotional and take
it out on the festivals in general.

But after a while - if the filmmaker can get past the emotions -
it’s clear that festivals are a business, too. They want butts in
the seats. And more people will pay to see a movie with a “name”
than will pay to see the kinds of movie we make.

It’s a rude awakening. And it makes some of us better filmmakers.

directorik said:

You ask a lot of excellent “if” questions EvsFX.

When I was a wannabe I volunteered
at a couple of festivals - sitting at the info desk, filling
coffee urns and cleaning up in the filmmakers lounge, taking tickets.

Do it! Start attending film festivals as a wannabe filmmaker.


.

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that's a good idea, however, I'm still trying to find my niche and figure out what direction I want to go, this music video business seems like a good idea at the moment. Seeing your Thread makes sense to at least see what a festival entails and the workings, I'll have to find something in my area, but I haven't seen anything other than in Atlanta which is 2 hours away from me.

"but you are very bitter. Or cynical. Or just plain troll."

Not at all. It's called being realistic.

"Aside from the whole "lack of population" thing going on, there's probably a very unrealistic expectation of how your film would be received in such areas."

No offense, but here's where a little common sense goes a long way.

a) It was a large multi-plex in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't mean there's no people (I said there were towns). They don't make large multi-plexs where there are no people. It was a Saturday night and the ticket was cheap to sit and watch 12 hours of new horror movies. The place should have been packed. But, if you don't tell the townfolk, they ain't showing up. The place went out of business a week or two later.

b) I wrote in my original post, Us Sinners was the only one that received any kind of audience reaction. All good for a horror movie.

Honestly, what was the last horror movie at a festival you went to where people literally (and with good reason) jumped out of their seats?

"I don't think you have any idea about how the film-fest circuit works."

I know how it works, and I know how it should work. It's a really simple concept. I don't know all the ins and outs, but the basics are not that hard. And for me, it's just not worth it. For film makers who make little tiny micro-budget movies (especially miniDV) with no name actors in it, it's just not worth it. The only place these film makers should be aiming for are festivals close to their homes. Because there's a news worthy piece, and they hopefully have friends.

I live in Jersey and there's a theatre (that's a short train ride from NY) that I can rent out for $85 and hour. I could have shown Us Sinners and advertised for the amount of money that I've spent on entering festivals.

"I doubt it."

Well, you can be wrong. Because my taste starts at the silents and work it's way up. The only crap I try to avoid straight up are Stallone, Van Damme and that ilk.

"...and by "appropriate", I don't mean cornfields in the middle of Iowa."

I applied to every Horror festival in the US, many through withoutabox. The Spooky Movie is in Washington DC. But, they were having a marathon somewhere in Maryland. That's where Us Sinners played.

"Unfortunatly many other filmmakers are like you."

But, you're saying I don't go to festivals ONLY because I don't want to support them. But, an even more important reason is what I stated earlier. People in theatres SUCK. They talk, they use their cell phones, and act like they're sitting in their living rooms. But, they're not. It is no longer an enjoyable experience to go to the movies. Hell, I barely go to Broadway anymore because morons do the same thing in theatres. That's $110 a ticket to listen to someone talk about shit. And I don't sit in the balcony, I enjoy the front orchestra.

"What you don’t see are the gems like YOUR movie because you won’t go to film festivals."

That's disappointing. But, I watch about 40 first time movies a month. There's a lot out there.

"I know I’m not going to convince you. You have made up your mind that festivals are, in general, filled with crap and you won’t support somthing you know is going to suck."

That's true. Another reason is they overlook good movies for ones that have a name in it. They're not doing what they say they're going to do. Because as YOU ALL point out, it's a business.
As a film maker you enter festivals in hopes of having your movie seen, but also to hopefully get a distribution deal. Well, distributors don't go to these tiny no-name festivals (maybe if they're in NY LA or Chicago). They go to the large ones that are basically set-up to take the little unknown film maker's money, and push the ones that will get a deal on name power anyway.

It's a crap shoot with less then bad odds for the truly independent unknown film maker. And I think we all can agree on that, because we all agree festivals care more about filling seats then showing great movies. That's not bitter, nasty, rude or being a troll. It's realistic.

I am trying to inspire myself by thinking of little movies that went big ... like Blair Witch Project / Clerks / Napolean Dynamite / Hostel to name a small few.

I myself will attend a festival in Boston this spring but I forgot the name - have the dates though - and the Provincetown festival which I think is in June. I just want to check it out - and so what if I end up seeing crap on a screen - it will inspire me more!

Blair Witch suckered EVERYONE into believing it was real footage, and people bought it. How? I don't know. Because it was the stupidest thing I've ever seen. But, bless'em. They took a gimmick to the limit and made millions.

Clerks, absolutely. Made for absolutely nothing.

Napolean Dynamite over a quarter million budget (imdb says $400,000), and Hostel over a three million dollar budget. Not little micro-budget movies. Not even close.

ussinners said:

Because it was the stupidest thing I've ever seen. But, bless'em. They took a gimmick to the limit and made millions.

.

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Doesn't sound so stupid after all now does it? How much did your film make?

Ive been sending my stuff to small venues for the past 2 years, and mostly because those festivals are right up the ally of the production. Though it wasn't exactly Sundance, the venues packed enough people who were there for that kind of thing that satisfied my want for exposure. Eventually, I plan to step it up, depending on the film, and send it elsewhere. There really isnt a reason not to send it a thousand and one places at once, but you also have to consider where your looking to go with it, and what sort of submission costs are you really looking to pay. I will say, don't let that be a deciding factor for your entire career, otherwise you really wont get anything ANYWHERE.

Working in the Alaska film scene, its really easy to gain an audience once the word is out. Probably from the geographic limitations. They really don't have many other festivals/screenings to go to, and their really tired of staying in doors all day when its -10 outside. But, on the bright side, its good exposure, and amps my want to produce more. This is not a large-town venue, by any means, but it packs alot of interest once you put yourself on the line. Ive also received quite a lot of good feedback from quality international filmmakers who have come through town, who were there either for the festival itself or just to see Alaska. So, you really need to consider the geographical thing before you submit as well: "how many people are going to be there and why?", "is it a good place for other filmmakers to see films?" "what is the exposure going to be like, regardless?" You know L.A. will be "LA" and Broken Arrow, OK, is, well, "Broken fucking Arrow," but that doesn't mean Broken Arrow wont pull people, nor should you distress yourself if it doesn't. An audience, in every case, is still an audience.

Choosing a small town venue is really not as bad as you might think, but you just need to study the festival and study your own film to see if it fits theme (if there is one). These qualities, and these accounts of my work in a "small town" setting hopefully will help you go after those smaller venues, as you really never know what factors plays into what draws people there.

Woodruff

EvsFX08 said:

Doesn't sound so stupid after all now does it? How much did your film make?

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That's actually pretty funny. Because me and my Executive Producer are talking about our next project. So I sent him the first draft and he wrote back "George it seems like you want to make another good movie".

Of course "Good Movie" is all a matter of taste and opinion. But, I knew what he meant. Yeah, I do want to make another good movie. The people at BWP didn't. They made crap, and marketed it as reality. If they had marketed it as a movie with actors faking it, they'd wouldn't have made a dime. If the promoters at these festivals had actually thought about what they were watching, it would never had been believed. But as Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute".

Does it sound stupid to me? Yeah, it does. Though not on the masterminds part, but on how gullible so many people were to actually believe such nonsense.

I think Otis and Rest Stop are much better movies then BWP, yet they haven't grossed anywhere near as much. Both were produced by the BWP writer. Money has nothing to do with whether a movie is good or not. Hype and marketing have nothing to do with whether a movie is good or not. As a few of the posters at this subject have mentioned, they've seen some real gems that haven't even gotten deals.

I rather make a good movie and fail, then put out something I know is crap and build a huge lie about it. But if money is all you're interested in create porn, there will always be a market for it.