Why get prosumer?

V

VladCantSleep

I know all the amazing manual controls that come with a prosumer. The image quality is almost always great, and they are more durable than any given consumer model.

But for some reason, I have absolutely no incentive anymore to even LOOK at prosumer cameras. There are many Consumer HD cameras that record an absolutely beautiful image, and come with plenty manual controls.

An example? The HV20/30. I can talk about these cameras all day long, and I still won't be able to get the point across as well as a video would.

WATCH THESE IN HD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tULTJYvYoRU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buc2D6GZLfU

Before watching all the HV20/30 footage, I was convinced that a prosumer SD>any consumer. I'd look at demo footage from the XL1, the GL2, etc. And I'd be so impressed. I kept telling myself that these are affordable cameras that I won't have to sell my kidney for.

The two videos above shit on absolutely every single GL2 demo I have seen on the net.

So, why the 2,000 dollar price tag? The XLR input, manual controls, and a shallower DoF?

Add the beachtek, add the 35 mm adaptor, and the HV30 is still cheaper than the GL2. In the end, it will also produce a better looking image at much higher resolutions.

So, the HV30 will be my next camera. I am naive, and I don't know everything there is to know about cameras... I'm not sure what the community concensus is, but I'll put it upon you guys to convince me to save up for a prosume. (And there's no way I'm going to save up for a prosumer HD. 2,000 may be reasonable, but 4,000 sure as hell isn't.)
 
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I guess you can make a vehicle analogy:

There is no NEED to buy a Mercedes or BMW when a Toyota will get you where
you want to go. But some people - people who have the money - prefer a more
expensive car. Why? They both get you to work and back.

The image from the HV30, placed side by side with my 22 year old $12,000
broadcast quality Betacam SP is likely to be pretty close. Technology is changing.
Same with comparing the XL1, the GL2 and the HV30.

I can answer only for me:

The size of the camera matters - to me.
The functions of the camera matters - to me.

I've used the HV30, it offers one hell of a nice image. But when I'm shooting
reality TV I need more control over the image (focus, gain, shutter, iris, even
white balance) than that camera allows. When I'm making movies I need
those controls to be easier to get at and I need a camera that is bigger and
shoulder mounted. I also need to be able to change lenses without using an
adaptor in front of the lens.

If none of that is important to you (and there's no real reason it should be)
then you don't need anything more than the HV30. It's not naive to want to
use the camera that suits your needs. If you don't need a BMW, don't get one.
 
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directorik said:
I guess you can make a vehicle analogy:

There is no NEED to buy a Mercedes or BMW when a Toyota will get you where
you want to go. But some people - people who have the money - prefer a more
expensive car. Why? They both get you to work and back.

The image from the HV30, placed side by side with my 22 year old $12,000
broadcast quality Betacam SP is likely to be pretty close. Technology is changing.
Same with comparing the XL1, the GL2 and the HV30.

I can answer only for me:

The size of the camera matters - to me.
The functions of the camera matters - to me.

I've used the HV30, it offers one hell of a nice image. But when I'm shooting
reality TV I need more control over the image (focus, gain, shutter, iris, even
white balance) than that camera allows. When I'm making movies I need
those controls to be easier to get at and I need a camera that is bigger and
shoulder mounted. I also need to be able to change lenses without using an
adaptor in front of the lens.

If none of that is important to you (and there's no real reason it should be)
then you don't need anything more than the HV30. It's not naive to want to
use the camera that suits your needs. If you don't need a BMW, don't get one.
Click to expand...

Your post made me feel a million times better. I thought that maybe there was some vital feature missing from these cameras. Something that would hinder my films one way or another.

I'm used to using a small camera, and the rest of the things you've said don't really matter much to me. Thank you for the very informing post :)
 
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directorik said:
I guess you can make a vehicle analogy:

There is no NEED to buy a Mercedes or BMW when a Toyota will get you where
you want to go. But some people - people who have the money - prefer a more
expensive car. Why? They both get you to work and back.

...
Click to expand...

I can definitely relate to that. I think I blow way too much money on cars.

Why? Because it's just too damn much fun going to get the groceries when you can get there twice as fast. :lol:

I have a Prosumer camera. I guess that's why I also drive a Z06 Corvette. :cool:
 
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Just to chime in...

Will this matter much on your DIY films, no, that being said...

When you start trying to hire (paid or not) grips, makeup people, sound people, etc... etc... and thay ask
"What are you going to shoot it on"
and you answer
"An HV30"

Some fairly significant percentage just filed you away under "some yahoo with a camcorder", and will stop answering your emails.
 
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Haha, yeah to Gonzo... I have to say I was very impressed by the footage you posted, but if someone told me they were shooting on a camcorder I would be pretty dubious. But I'm sure you can get around that with the right "sell", i.e. you're going modern, high concept, 24p, etc. Just sound like you know what you're doing... which ideally isn't a bluff.
 
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H.Z. said:
Haha, yeah to Gonzo... I have to say I was very impressed by the footage you posted, but if someone told me they were shooting on a camcorder I would be pretty dubious. But I'm sure you can get around that with the right "sell", i.e. you're going modern, high concept, 24p, etc. Just sound like you know what you're doing... which ideally isn't a bluff.
Click to expand...

Thanks, for the compliment (more a compliment to my DP, but he deserves it).

Like I said, on DIY doesn't matter, and you may be able to overcome it with a sales pitch that you know what you're doing, and aren't just some smuck with a walmart camcorder. It just makes the job a little harder. It doesn't make it impossible.
 
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directorik said:
I guess you can
Click to expand...

I've used the HV30, it offers one hell of a nice image. But when I'm shooting
reality TV I need more control over the image (focus, gain, shutter, iris, even
white balance) than that camera allows. When I'm making movies I need
those controls to be easier to get at and I need a camera that is bigger and
shoulder mounted. I also need to be able to change lenses without using an
adaptor in front of the lens.

Reality tv...I would imagin you would need a camera that has the strength of a bull to handle possible punches, kicks and spitting (if you work for vh1).
 
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I do mostly documentary work, and for me it is essential to have a prosumer camera. Part of it is the size. Having a camera with some weight behind it for handheld and shoulder shots is essential. I also can't mess with an adapter and lenses, as well as a flipped image. It is also important to be able to control focus and zoom at the same time. The other aspect of size is you need people to take you seriously as a film maker doing doc work. If I showed up to an interview or was doing street shooting with an HV30, people probably are going to think I am filming something for Youtube. Other than that, the xlr plugs and control over picture and sound are a must. Joystick and menu just don't cut it. That's my reasons, but directorik has some great advice. Everyone is different, find what works. It's good to see someone content and working with what they've got. Too many times its easy to get caught up in the gear and forget about what we do film making for.
 
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I don't even know the difference between an F-stop and a bus stop, cameras aren't my gig. Audio is my thing, and I've worked on and own consumer, prosumer and professional equipment.

Prosumer gear is meant for those who want to make the step up from consumer toys to professional gear. In this day and age consumer gear has some amazing capabilities, but also has limitations. What it all comes down to are your goals; do you eventually want to be a professional in your chosen career? If the answer is yes then you should bite the bullet and step up to prosumer gear. Why? It's not just spending more money, it's an investment in your future, an opportunity to work on a consistent basis with features and functions not available on consumer products.

You are (and I was) fortunate and should be grateful (I am) that there is a middle ground between consumer and professional level equipment. As an old fart I've seen the growth of technology over the last 30+ years of my adult life. My first computer, which I used for music purposes, was a Mac Quadra with a 40 MEG hard drive and 4 MEGs of RAM; that's right, MEGs, and I was the envy of my peers. At that same time the first prosumer music gear was just hitting the market in a big way, and the balance of my equipment was prosumer stuff. Before prosumer was introduced to the market the jump from a cassette player to a multitrack reel-to-reel was from a couple of hundred dollars to over ten thousand dollars.

I built a small home prosumer level studio, but the techniques I learned using prosumer gear allowed me to make the jump from advanced home recordist to professional recording engineer without much of a problem. The biggest stunner was how much easier things were when I was finally able to work with high quality equipment; the equipment did exactly what it was supposed to do, provided I knew what I wanted it to do and how to do it. The biggest learning curve was that professional gear is much less forgiving; all the flaws that were covered up by the prosumer stuff became glaringly apparent on professional gear.
 
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One thing you really should realise that NONE of the people here mentioned is:
What can you afford?

I myself am buying a HV40 as a step up in my career. I want to be a director, but I want to produce some decent quality shit (quality as in Picture and Story) so people won't look at me stupidly and say 'you shot a movie with a CAMERA PHONE?'... which is what I've been using for the last year. Thats worse than them thinking you're just 'another ametuer with a camcorder'.
I'm not rich... I can't afford the best. I can't afford a full HD prosumer camera with all the bells and whistles... I have enough to buy the HV40 and basic gear. When I make more movies, hopefully sell some... I'll graduate. But right now I AM making an investment... its called 'upgrading' for the future. And when the future calls for another upgrade, I'll scrape my pennies together and go ONE STEP FURTHER.
Besides... why should someone judge your abilities as a movie maker just based on the gear you're using?

So, rather than 'sell your kidney' just to buy the best equipment in order to be taken seriously... buy what you can afford. You could always just do this to your HV30... then people will either take you seriously, or laugh....
 
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Just my two cents...

Like Rik and a few others said, there are a few things a filmmaker might find useful with more expensive models (as well as weight and size).

But keep in mind, it's not just about image quality...it's about what you do with that image after you've captured it. Do you know how to color grade and correct? If you don't, you may find yourself with a less-than-satisfactory image. People that are really good at grading can produce fantastic images on the HV20-30. While other people shoot on it, and it looks a bit amateur.

Here is a friend of mine who shoots on the HV20, and is a master at grading--this shows what you can get from it: http://vimeo.com/3889659

It's also your style. I find that far too many filmmakers go hand-held with their work...and unless you're very good at it, it adds an amateurish quality to the work that stands out. Shot cmoposition, as well as shooting on a tripod can add production value.

And of course...lighting is a huge thing. If you don't know how to really light a scene, your stuff is going to look amateurish no matter what you're shooting on.

Prosumer cameras nowa'days will get you the great raw image any filmmaker needs to be taken seriously and produce a quality product...but it's only the starting point...it's a good foundation. But an even better foundation is your lighting skills, camera work, and post color correction and grading.
 
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Isn't the HV30 the consumer cams they used to shoot a lot of Crank 2 on? They used them and mixed the footage with their main cams, a couple of XH-A1's, and the footage mixed perfectly. It all looked like it was shot on the same camera. Of course, they did a lot of post color correction, but still, the movie looks fantastic (got the blu-ray the other day).

I'm sure you've heard this a lot, but I'll say it again: It's all about the material. The camera you use is just a means to get the material on the screen. I think Crank 2 proved that as the movie was better (IMO) than Crank 1 which was shot on the F900, I believe. No general audience could tell the difference, I'm sure.

Regards,
WalterWhite

PS
The difference between the HV30 and the XH-A1 is the controls. The XH-A1 has an amazing set of controls. If you add to it a 35mm adapter you can get some pretty stunning shots.
 
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When you start trying to hire (paid or not) grips, makeup people, sound people, etc... etc... and thay ask
"What are you going to shoot it on"
and you answer
"An HV30"

Some fairly significant percentage just filed you away under "some yahoo with a camcorder", and will stop answering your emails.
Click to expand...

If one is serious about hiring a crew, and the crew starts to ask questions like "what camera are you shooting this project with?", then it's time to show everyone a (preferably AMAZING) video that you shot with the HV30. Something like this: http://www.vimeo.com/2871790

Show the crew you're hiring a video like that, and they probably couldn't care less about what camera you're shooting with. They'll just know that no matter what, you'll end up making it look amazing.

I recently went through the same battle as you; Consumer vs. Prosumer. I started a thread about it, got a ton of replies, and eventually narrowed it down to two cameras; the Canon 7D and Vixia HF S100. I was going to go with the 7D, but it's way out of my price range, and it's a DSLR, meaning that a lot of controls won't be the same as a standard video camcorder. And after seeing footage much like the video I linked you to, I know that the HF S100 will do just fine. :)
 
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Yodaman said:
If one is serious about hiring a crew, and the crew starts to ask questions like "what camera are you shooting this project with?", then it's time to show everyone a (preferably AMAZING) video that you shot with the HV30. Something like this: http://www.vimeo.com/2871790

Show the crew you're hiring a video like that, and they probably couldn't care less about what camera you're shooting with. They'll just know that no matter what, you'll end up making it look amazing.

I recently went through the same battle as you; Consumer vs. Prosumer. I started a thread about it, got a ton of replies, and eventually narrowed it down to two cameras; the Canon 7D and Vixia HF S100. I was going to go with the 7D, but it's way out of my price range, and it's a DSLR, meaning that a lot of controls won't be the same as a standard video camcorder. And after seeing footage much like the video I linked you to, I know that the HF S100 will do just fine. :)
Click to expand...

Well, there are a couple of things that jumped out at me in that video. For one the focus was battling the image. Second, I noticed that all the shots are pretty flat. Finally the auto-iris is very apparent. I will say if your gonna pay me to work on a project then I wouldn't care. Shoot on a flip book. However, if you want me to work for free on a project, one of the first questions out of my mouth after watching that would be "What kind of camera are you using?" It would be followed up with what does the lighting package look like and what are we using to record sound? I can certainly see how it does look kind of neat, but for a professional crew your asking to work for free, I wouldn't help on a shoot with a consumer palm-corder.
 
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The thing that jumps out at me right away is the shutter speed. The lack of controls means that shooting daylight becomes problematic when the shutter has to ratchet up to compensate. I'm wondering if this can be overcome in some way with some screw-on ND filters. You might give that a try.

But ultimately, you have to shoot with what you can afford. And if what you can afford is the HV30, then go for it.
 
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...the focus was battling the image. Second, I noticed that all the shots are pretty flat. Finally the auto-iris is very apparent.
Click to expand...

Yeah, those things jumped out at me as well after watching it a couple more times. I also noticed it seemed "jittery".

I'm pretty sure you can control the iris on the HV30 (at least a little bit). However, when I went on the product info page, I could only find a "Yes" for "Manual Exposure". That is iris control, right?

I, too, noticed the shots were pretty "flat". When I watched the video again (just now), I thought to myself "Where's some depth of field? Why didn't you blur the background out when she walked through those doors?". And there were some areas where the focusing just wasn't right at all.

Even so, if the dude had taken the time to check focusing and the iris (if it's possible on the HV30), then the video could have looked better, but it still looks better than a lot of other HV30 videos I've seen.

I just can't get over the "jittery" effect. Was that caused by an inadequate shutter speed? Like, he had it set on 24p, but forgot to turn the shutter speed to 1/48, so there's some "ghosts" leftover in certain frames? I suppose it's either that or something happened during the upload of his video. Either way, I found it pretty distracting.

EDIT:
The thing that jumps out at me right away is the shutter speed. The lack of controls means that shooting daylight becomes problematic when the shutter has to ratchet up to compensate. I'm wondering if this can be overcome in some way with some screw-on ND filters. You might give that a try.
Click to expand...

I believe a Mr. Philip Bloom used an ND Fader filter to help his videos appear more like film, and to help with shutter speed (like you said). That was with his 7D/5D Mark II though, so the results will of course be different. But maybe it could help out on the HV30...

EDIT II:

Here's another video. It was shot with the Canon HF S10 and a DOF adapter. There's some scenes that look kind of jittery (because it was shot handheld and the panning was too fast in some areas), but it was all set on manual. The iris never adjusts itself, the focusing is pretty decent, and the color is pretty awesome throughout the video. Besides the jittery motion and chromatic aberration in some shots, it's a nice video. http://www.vimeo.com/7337888
 
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Yodaman said:
I believe a Mr. Philip Bloom used an ND Fader filter to help his videos appear more like film, and to help with shutter speed (like you said). That was with his 7D/5D Mark II though, so the results will of course be different. But maybe it could help out on the HV30...
Click to expand...

One of the main reasons to do it with the 7D/5D is to keep your aperture wide AND your shutter at 1/50. This allows you to maintain the DOF in bright sunlight while controlling your exposure as well.

With the HV30, you're basically only going to be dealing with keeping the shutter speed more natural since DOF is basically infinity in those wider shots.
 
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One of the main reasons to do it with the 7D/5D is to keep your aperture wide AND your shutter at 1/50. This allows you to maintain the DOF in bright sunlight while controlling your exposure as well.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. My knowledge is limited, but I know what you're saying.
 
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I use an HV30 and I think it's a pretty good camera for the money. the problems it has with adjustments make it less than perfect.

1. limited iris control. you adjust it (as much as it allows) then flip to playback to see your take then go back and it reverts to the default setting.
2. sharing the audio out with the video out plug makes reviewing the sound tough because it keeps flipping back to video out each time you switch between camera and playback. you end up with a buzzing in your headphones. you go into the menu and choose audio only for the output, but you have to do this each time.
3. viewfinder doesn't show all the width of the image. when I download the clip, i get junk that I didn't see on the sides when filming. have to remember to frame things a little closer than I want.
4. limited lens mounting options. bought a wide angle for it and found that a dark ciular edge shows up on the downloaded video edges. zoom in a bit to fix this.
5. a bit grainy in dark conditions. common to all camcorders I suppose.
6. bought an external mic and a 20ft extension cable. got a nasty hum from impedance mismatching. the hum is bad but to get rid of it all you have to do is run on batteries.

I love the camera. it does have manual focus adjustments by the way. it's a little wheel on the side.

I shoot in cinema mode and 24p. the 24p is not true 24p but it is acceptable. the HV40 has native 24p.

I plan to buy an HV40 in the near future. of course my dream camera is that Red One that is supposed to be a replacement for film shooting at 4K resolution. Granted, my editing software would have fits with video that large. Plus the 50k+ for the package is a bit pricey
 
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