Using film

Hi, just wondering how much longer do you think film will be a realistic way to shoot films? Because I've a long way to go before I become a proper filmmaker and I dearly hope to use film when I have the money.

Please tell me it will still be usable and realistic to use in many years to come.
 
I'd say unless you are doing it for artistic style there is practically no reason to use film anymore. I mean you might find some extremely cheap 35mm stuff as everybody is getting rid of theirs but I don't see any reason to invest in a new film system other then you want to have some unique look that is attributed to film. Everything about digital production is more efficient and of better quality.
 
well i would have to say you are crazy to think Digital is better than film...even with the best 35 adaptors i have seen...nothing comes close to film...the closest i have seen is the Red and Panavision systems...

also think about projection...nothing can compare to 35mm projection,,,IMO

as for people Dumping 35mm equipment...not true...maybe to Documentary guy is, who owns an ARRI...99.9% of all films shooting 35mm...rent! people just dont own this equiment..they need to invenst a Million Bucks in it...and you cant buy a Panavison Camera anyway...you can only rent one....

Film will be around for a long time...untill there is a system to replace it...and thats just not here yet...it will be someday...and will most likely come form RED or PANAVISION....(the Panavision is realy a modified SONY)

so i dont understand
I don't see any reason to invest in a new film system other then you want to have some unique look that is attributed to film.

if anything...Video is the UNIQUE LOOK...FILM is the norm....

i may dissagree with everything you say...but thats just my opinon
 
I use film. That's why there's so much time between my projects (funding). I don't like pixels :hmm:

I like shooting film and having to wait for dailies. There's just something about the whole process.

It will be here a long time. For professional still photographers, digital has not taken over, they still shoot film when they want the best.
 
Well, I'm still young and probably don't know much about the industry as it is right now, but most of the guys I work with are going digital. I also don't see any reason for doing it old school any more. I mean, it's nothing but expensive, takes ages and editing in Final Cut is way easier than doing it all by hand an actually cutting the film.
I've heard of movies that were shot on film and then later scanned for digital editing. I don't see why that would make any sense. Don't you loose a lot of quality that way?
And also, with new cameras coming out like the RED Epic with resolutions beyond 5k, I think you can get even more detail with digital footage than you can get with regular 35mm (just think about 268MP xD).

However there is one thing a photographer once told me that I think hold true for film, too. He told me that back in the old days, where every picture cost like 100$, you'd think before shooting something. Today, where you can just put a 16GB SD-Card in your cam and shoot thousands of pictures, there's a lot more rubbish.
I guess the same holds true for film. If you have to pay a lot of money for the film it self, you make sure you do everything right. If you know you can only shoot 2 takes, then you see to it that everything is as perfect as it can be.
Well, that may or may not be an advantage. With digital you can shoot as many takes as you want because the tapes don't cost anything and disk space is cheap as hell. That way you are under no pressure and don't have that fear of doing something wrong and loosing a pile of money.

Well, as I said, I think digital is better. Then again, I've never filmed on actual 35mm so I can't really say if this "we only got 2 take, every other take costs 500$"-style would give me any benefit and would actually help me make better films. I just like experimenting and trying a lot of different things. And there, digital is actually better.
 
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One aspect of film that I took for granted is the amount of image information that is stored on the film as compared to digital files. Film is in the can, digital files are on a hard drive up until that drive demagnetizes. I can scan film at miniDV or go crazy and scan 4k uncompressed 4:4:4 and still there is more info on the film. Ok I have to keep the film away from damage but I think that's easier than saving hard-drives and hoping they work when I fire them up. When I look at film from the point of view of an "image master" quality, the price is not so bad.
 
When I visited panavision, I talked to a cinematographer there and he told me that the films grain mimics that of the human eye, while digital grain does not. Lately, when I wake up in the middle of the night, I pay attention to the natural grain the human eye creates, and he was right, in low lighting situations - film does look a lot like the grain we see - while digital looks more pixelated and foreign to the human eye. This brought me to the conclusion that when a person watches a movie shot on film, they will believe what they see more so than if it were shot on digital. I believe that for a movie to transport the audience into the moment of the scene that is shot in digital, you have to work that much harder with the actors, editors and sound designers to fool the audience. The advantage with digital is that you will have twice the coverage vs film, so you will be able to pull off more editing tricks. I think I have enough faith in my editing and sound skills now that I can shoot completely digital for my next movie.
 
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I've shot film, and like Indietalk, love the process. However, I'm also a proponent of using whatever medium best conveys your intention or function for the work. To use an old adage; 'form follows function'. Painters still use mineral pigments and horsehair brushes, and these tools have been around for 30,000 years.
 
The Human eye is amazing. The ultimate analog image sensor! The brain, a chemical storage unit.

I first noticed the difference between analog and digital with audio. I spent a lot of time in recording studios. Digital audio bothers my ears and analog does not. Low bandwidth mp3's really bothers my ears. I get listening fatigue. Low bandwidth H.264 plain sucks regardless if the master is digital or film. I often wonder if I get viewing fatigue from digital video. My point is that tech heads, myself included, understand these things but audiences feel these things. The higher the digital bandwith the less it hurts. Film hurts less.
 
Here are our thoughts on the matter:



This is something I am quite familiar with as a producer. Filmmaking is inherently expensive regardless of the medium you shoot on, but there is something to be said for digital.

There is a significant drop in cost when the switch is made to digital, especially if you consider the costs of developing, transfer, digital intermediates, color correction/telecine, back to film costs if need be, etc. However, the argument of switching to digital is one that is quite subjective and heavily debated. There is without a doubt a nostalgia and a routine to using film, especially considering the high quality nature of emulsion which is really difficult to replicate. However, the advancement of digital equipment is such that this is becoming much less of a debate. Some Hollywood blockbusters that people flock to are shot on digital and no one is the wiser. Even a lot of the lower budget independent films that open up to the digital options find that they can produce film quality images if they have the appropriate crew.

We are frequently asked the same question; digital or film? This decision should be made based on the following criteria:

The budget, that is to say how much money is able to be allocated to the cost of using film. Even if your budget is at a fairly substantial level, you still may not be able to afford film. The reason is budget allocation. If you pour too much money into any one specific area of production, such as the cost of using film, then you automatically decrease the funds available to other areas cumulatively, which could be of severe consequence to the production. For instance, the most common error made is to remove funds from sound and post-production/promotion to afford a higher quality camera. It doesn't matter how good the footage looks if the sound is terrible and you cannot afford the cost of color correction/visual fx and especially promotion. If you cannot afford to tell people about your film, then all the money put into the camera was not of much use in the long run. If it is clear that film will skew the budget allocation noticeably and to a level of discomfort to the producer, then the question should no longer be, "film or digital?" but, "what is the best quality digital I can get for what I have available?" If you maintain the thought that money and people (who also depend on your money) are your main resources, then these should be preserved first and foremost over any equipment value.

The quality of footage vs. the crew available. Film is a traditional art form and is difficult to master but is for the most part common place. This means that there are quite a few DPs out there that are familiar with film and are quite able to produce high quality footage. If the money is there, then sticking to the tried and true method of film based filmmaking is the most appropriate choice. However, when considering digital, remember that it is still a new medium. While digital has been around for more than a decade, it has only been in the last couple of years of development where advancements have been made to replicate near film quality imagery. This means that far less people are knowledgeable on reproducing this imagery. This fact is rapidly changing as more and more filmmakers defect to digital and begin to learn the equipment available, its advantages, and how to use it. However, keep in mind that the field of qualified DPs is smaller than that in film. It's difficult to manipulate digital technology to replicate film, so choose your cinematographer very carefully, especially if you are strapped on time and need a DP who can move quick, yet produce quality footage.

Lastly, time vs. developing technology. Film has remained for the most part relatively unchanged for the last century. Film is still emulsion based, it is still run through a reel and exposed through a shutter rotating at 1/24 of a second, and is still developed and color corrected in a lab. The technology of creating and developing film with the combination of higher quality cameras and lenses has advanced the art of using film, but for the most part the technique and use remains unchanged. The digital world changes monthly. What was common place four months ago is now outdated by a revolutionary new system, which in turn is outdated just a few months down the line. For example, Final Cut Pro developed version 6 so fast that users barely had time to use version 5 before they had to pay for a costly update. Therefore, expect increased costs in production based on the cost of updating and buying software/equipment. The RED Camera is by far the best example of this. Anyone using the RED knows of the inherent flaws in the work flow and technology, but every month they continue to develop new features, while releasing fixes to their earlier bugs. However, since their new features are still bugging, while one bug is fixed, the next is already present. Expect developments in technology that will push you to change your game plan on the move, whereas in film you can expect some form of steadiness.

If anyone has any other question, please feel free to email us info@loughrancg.com.

The Loughran Consulting Group
 
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There is exactly one reason to shoot digital, cost. Film is still superior in every respect as far as the final product. If I had a producer who said "you can shoot 4K digital or 16mm". I'd pick 16 mm every time.
 
There is exactly one reason to shoot digital, cost. Film is still superior in every respect as far as the final product. If I had a producer who said "you can shoot 4K digital or 16mm". I'd pick 16 mm every time.

This. Oh, and this. :lol: Kinda. I don't have as strong feelings about the superiority of one over the other. For me it is more a question of suitability. This, of course, grants that we are talking a digital sensor on the high end of the spectrum for purposes of quality comparison. Ie. Comparing a Viper to 35 or s16 is more viable than comparing a GL1 to film. Having said that, if I wanted a specific look (let's say prop-camera footage of one character spying on another) I might go for the "lower" quality image on purpose. Even at the high end of the spectrum, you're talking about two completely different resultant image styles that don't really lend themselves to a straight comparison.

Lots of folks are jazzed to shoot one way or another because everyone else is doing it. It was RED for a while, currently it's DSLR at certain levels, RED-MX is getting people excited about using the ONE once more, and eventually their next line will be around and folks will be excited to shoot that.

I always get a kick out of watching shooters or directors who never actually shot film. Just pointing the camera all over the place and getting a ton of coverage without putting much actual thought into the shots. Shooting 16 as a student and paying for it yourself teaches a whole different way of thinking regarding shooting, composition, the whole nine. Of course that's already been mentioned. that's how I started, and truth be told - the more I play with the newer toys, the more I want to go back to shooting film. Doing that with my stills. Played around in digital and will still shoot it - but I also still shoot 35mm b/w stills with my AE-1, develop them at home, and print as needed at a local art co-op. I'm hoping to pick up a Holga this year and start fiddling with that as well.

The point is that I've seen budgets for RED "4K" projects and for s16 projects that are roughly equal in dollar amounts and given the option I too would go for the s16 just about every time. Of course there are story and artistic considerations that might swing me toward the digital side, it depends on the project. I'd never think to shoot an observational, verite style piece on digital, just as I'd probably not shoot a glossy, sci-fi pick on super-16. This is, naturally, in a perfect world where we get to make such decisions without someone dictating format because it's the format-de-jour.

The question of one being "better" is mostly academic, given that we're talking high-end sensors. Each format gives a specific look and said look should be used to benefit/enhance the final product. It's almost akin to arguing over which printing paper to use in photography. Different papers have different final results, and knowing which to choose when is part of the craft.
 
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In response to the first question:

Judging by the fact that the Music industry still uses tape as the main delivery medium, and even some on vinyl, I think Film for movies will be around a long time.
 
In response to the first question:

Judging by the fact that the Music industry still uses tape as the main delivery medium, and even some on vinyl, I think Film for movies will be around a long time.

viynl is having a resurgence even as CDs die. People who don't give a shit buy mp3s, Collectors and people into the "cool" factor by records.
 
True,

But I meant the method of production (like Film is to movies), not the distribution (like DVDs are to movies).

It's really sad to see the state of music and MP3s etc.etc. but that's a whole other topic I can get started on if you want.
 
I think, as others have said, film will be around for those who want to do film photography, but as a medium for the masses (ooo, illiteration! ;)), film has had its day.

I went into a photography shop the other day (private business, not a chain), and I asked him where the "film" was. He directed me to a half full bin of rolled film. Nothing else in the store. "Its all digital" he said. "this is all I have.". I felt bad for him and sad about the lack of film, yet when you can buy cheap digital cameras now for almost the price of disposable "film" camera, and delete the shot you don't like, I can see why the masses don't buy it anymore.

But as long as people are buying the film for photography as art or whatever, it will be around.
 
The demise of film is perhaps the most tragic result of the digital revolution. Video is crap. Always has been, always will be. Not because of any abstract aesthetic concept like image quality, contrast ratio, etc. - though those do factor in - but because of its impermanence. No matter how technology changes, you will always be able to screen film because, let's face it, all you need is a light source and a lens. People a thousand years from now could figure it out. We can look at film shot in the 1800's like it was made yesterday.

Video, and particularly digital video, is a constantly evolving technology. Only the materials that are deemed to be important at the time will be translated into the latest formats. The rest will be left to fade into oblivion as the playback technology is phased out. Who knows what will be lost? No one knows, and probably will never know.

Film, meanwhile, transcends technology and format evolution. It can be reviewed at any time, regardless of the currently popular form of playback media, and either determined worthy of translating into that media, or put away for future consideration as cultural priorities shift over time. And they do shift.

My heart aches for the doomed images of the digital generation. We will not learn this lesson until it is too late; and then, of course, it will be too late. If this sounds impassioned, that's because it is. It makes me very sad.
 
The demise of film is perhaps the most tragic result of the digital revolution. Video is crap. Always has been, always will be. Not because of any abstract aesthetic concept like image quality, contrast ratio, etc. - though those do factor in - but because of its impermanence. No matter how technology changes, you will always be able to screen film because, let's face it, all you need is a light source and a lens. People a thousand years from now could figure it out. We can look at film shot in the 1800's like it was made yesterday.

Video, and particularly digital video, is a constantly evolving technology. Only the materials that are deemed to be important at the time will be translated into the latest formats. The rest will be left to fade into oblivion as the playback technology is phased out. Who knows what will be lost? No one knows, and probably will never know.

Film, meanwhile, transcends technology and format evolution. It can be reviewed at any time, regardless of the currently popular form of playback media, and either determined worthy of translating into that media, or put away for future consideration as cultural priorities shift over time. And they do shift.

My heart aches for the doomed images of the digital generation. We will not learn this lesson until it is too late; and then, of course, it will be too late. If this sounds impassioned, that's because it is. It makes me very sad.

I was going to make a crack about the "Canticle of Liebowitz", and thought better of it. Keep heart. Records are still around, and VHS seems determined to be dragged away kicking and screaming. I think there will always be people doing "old school" as it were, and those sorts of things keep older ways alive:)
 
The guy who got the famous shot of Monica Lewinski hugging Clinton commented once that he was shooting film that day. If he had been shooting digital he would have looked at that not paricularly interesting or well framed shot and deleted it.
 
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