If an artist/composer is known, has a lengthy body of work and trackable success, how do they begin the process of networking their talents and services in film score and composing? Aside from this site, are there areas where someone can/should post and promote? Specific avenues that film makers go to for original work from accomplished and legitimate composers?

links removed

You can start here, but this post probably belongs in the classifieds. ;)

Doug

p.s. I just noticed that you made 4 posts on this forum today, all promoting your service. You might be overdoing it just a little. Protocol here is to post this sort of thing in the classifieds and to refrain from crossposting.

Welcome to IndieTalk, anyway. Doug

forums, myspace, facebook (other sites like that). Posting here is a good start. Same as with filmmaking, find like minded individuals in your area and online and talk about your projects and theories as you learn/develop them. Be excited about it! Perhaps look at the 48hour projects in your area and find a team website with contact info offering your services. You'll start by working for free, but eventually, you can find a way into the industry once you've studied it's structure and learned how it works for professionals.

Doug is right though, make sure you read and follow the rules and etiquette of the place you are posting so you can not offend the people you're trying to reach, that's counter-productive to your goals.

Links removed. You have advertised in another thread already in the correct forum.

Wow. You guys are supremely serious about policing this message board - sorry for cross posting and thanks to those of you who were so gracious to offer input (both here and privately). Sometimes I think the ego prevents anyone from ever progressing...

In the 20+ years I have been an agent/manager for emerging artists, I seem to always find a community of very amazing people, but I have to go through alot of thick, sticky and dangerous territory before I end up where I'm supposed to begin.

So I'm confused, "knightly" and "indietalk" both have links and/or a banner ad at the closing of all their posts and repiies - I need to upgrade to do that, correct?

In response to the message regarding MySpace, Facebook and such, we have done that as this artist has a pretty amazing following for his solo as well as group CD's so we're good to go there. Just wanted specific film maker avenues to go to connect with those writers and directors looking for original compositions for their films. The 48hour projects you mentioned, is that something I would Google? My apologies for not having the industry terminology down.

... have links and/or a banner ad at the closing of all their posts and repiies - I need to upgrade to do that, correct?

Yes. It is a feature reserved for premiere members -- the ability to customize a signature that automatically appears after every post you make. It can include just your name, or a link, or a banner, or all three.

We hope this doesn't deter you from joining in the many discussions on this site. And yes, we do take the moderation role seriously. It is what keeps this site very civil and respectful towards others. Once you get involved, you'll find it's the best of its kind.

Wow. You guys are supremely serious about policing this message board
We sure are. It makes this messageboard a very good one. Hang around for
a while, join in on discussions and you'll soon understand why the mods are
so serious.

I'm a director and producer who very often looks for a composer. I have
never used an online site to find one. I rely on referrals. The specific avenues
are post production companies, other producers and members of the crew.

I see many posts and promotions on messageboards and I get notices on
MySpace and Facebook. Once in a while I have the time to listen, but I
prefer a referral.

One of my longest standing relationships with a composer is a guy who
was the recordist on a movie I directed. He agreed to do all the post audio
for a greatly reduced rate if I would hire him to compose the score.

Often the post production mixer will know composers. I've found a few
that way.

If a composer spends time on a messageboard, entering into discussions,
offering advice, helping out others I would be inclined to pay more attention.
Most composers come to boards, post a notice and that's it. The relationship
between a director and the composer needs to be a close one - creative, trust,
compromise and a little volatile as times. I don't get any understanding of the
person from one messageboard notice and listening to tracks.

If a composer spends time on a messageboard, entering into discussions,
offering advice, helping out others I would be inclined to pay more attention.
Most composers come to boards, post a notice and that's it. The relationship
between a director and the composer needs to be a close one - creative, trust,
compromise and a little volatile as times. I don't get any understanding of the
person from one messageboard notice and listening to tracks.

I've never thought this out fully, but is precisely the reason I've used people I know for scoring. There's been lots of offers to do composing here, but I've never followed them up as I had people I knew from other places make the same offer whom I know take criticism well and work well under pressure (most of what we do is timed competitions).

http://www.48hourfilm.com/ is the link to the 48 hour film project. You'll usually end up with about a half an hour to compose, but it's a fun ride :)

We sure are. It makes this messageboard a very good one. Hang around for
a while, join in on discussions and you'll soon understand why the mods are
so serious.

I'm a director and producer who very often looks for a composer. I have
never used an online site to find one. I rely on referrals. The specific avenues
are post production companies, other producers and members of the crew.

I see many posts and promotions on messageboards and I get notices on
MySpace and Facebook. Once in a while I have the time to listen, but I
prefer a referral.

One of my longest standing relationships with a composer is a guy who
was the recordist on a movie I directed. He agreed to do all the post audio
for a greatly reduced rate if I would hire him to compose the score.

Often the post production mixer will know composers. I've found a few
that way.

If a composer spends time on a messageboard, entering into discussions,
offering advice, helping out others I would be inclined to pay more attention.
Most composers come to boards, post a notice and that's it. The relationship
between a director and the composer needs to be a close one - creative, trust,
compromise and a little volatile as times. I don't get any understanding of the
person from one messageboard notice and listening to tracks.

So this confirms just about everything I've known in the music industry really does transfer to film as well; if you don't know someone, who knows someone who knows someone, your chances are SO painfully slim... this artist, Bryan Baker, has done a body of work at only 22 to intimidate most other musicians (which can be another challenge in and of itself to get him 'out there'); trick is, to intern with a known score composer to intern with a recordist, etc., takes times and this particular individual tours 6-7 months out of the year preforming so that grunt-labor avenue (no negativity attached to that btw) isn't an option and quite frankly, would be absurd for him to do given who he is already. He really wants to do film composing is the thing so I guess I need to get more creative with how and where I market his skills... your input however is so valuable and greatly appreciated!

I've never thought this out fully, but is precisely the reason I've used people I know for scoring. There's been lots of offers to do composing here, but I've never followed them up as I had people I knew from other places make the same offer whom I know take criticism well and work well under pressure (most of what we do is timed competitions).

http://www.48hourfilm.com/ is the link to the 48 hour film project. You'll usually end up with about a half an hour to compose, but it's a fun ride :)

I'll most certainly look into the 48 hour film site Knightly, thank you. Bryan has been applauded for his militant attention to detail and by virtue of his age, and to know he's been performing and recording as a band leader is a testament to his dedication and appreciation for "doing the work" ethic that is SO supremely lacking in the industry. Somehow this generation of young talent has taken the onslaught of reality TV, talent competitions and come to the conclusion that gear and money are all one needs to succeed in the Arts. Sadly, by the simple proof that there is so much garbage being produced is somewhat truth that if you have enough money, you will "make it" and talent or a gift for something really needn't apply. The "business" is, for an artist like Bryan, an illusion really, so many individuals posing as someone because who they have to connect to or impress is also posing for someone else and the authenticity of the matter, everyone just dropping the pseudo-personalities and just say "hey that guys great, let's try him out" or, you know what Man, I'm struggling just like you, let's see how we can be more impressive as a team" etc, etc, just doesn't happen due to the fact that if the BS of it all were dropped, there would a whole lotta' people out there tying nooses with the reality that they are all no further ahead, just as hungry and pulling at straws as the next guy.

I'm completely passionate about the artist's I represent and I have devote a lifetime of energy and funds to support and empower the ones that really, really are incredibly gifted and unique - I have to continue to reinvent how I do what I do and this message board has supplied me with some solid info and I'm grateful for that.

So this confirms just about everything I've known in the music industry really does transfer to film as well; if you don't know someone, who knows someone who knows someone, your chances are SO painfully slim

I don't agree with that. Sure, it doesn't hurt to know people, and if you do, you could still be mediocre or worse and even break into the business. But if you don't know anyone, put yourself on the inside track by making your talent and craft stand out. Make yourself so good, professionals can't say no.

The business is run by people who want to make money. If you're talented and can help them do that, you'll get a shot. The thing is, most people who never make it assume they are good enough already, when 99% of them aren't. They overestimate their abilities, get rejected, and then blame it on not knowing anyone. They just need to get better. Edison got his light bulb to work after more than 100 attempts...not because he thought his first attempt or first 100 attempts were good enough and nature just didn't recognize his genius, he got it right after he kept doing it over and over until his design made the grade.

If you've already got a credible track record, maybe you are just pursuing the wrong people. Go after what you want, but get you work to the right people who are interested in it.

I don't agree with that. Sure, it doesn't hurt to know people, and if you do, you could still be mediocre or worse and even break into the business. But if you don't know anyone, put yourself on the inside track by making your talent and craft stand out. Make yourself so good, professionals can't say no.

The business is run by people who want to make money. If you're talented and can help them do that, you'll get a shot. The thing is, most people who never make it assume they are good enough already, when 99% of them aren't. They overestimate their abilities, get rejected, and then blame it on not knowing anyone. They just need to get better. Edison got his light bulb to work after more than 100 attempts...not because he thought his first attempt or first 100 attempts were good enough and nature just didn't recognize his genius, he got it right after he kept doing it over and over until his design made the grade.

If you've already got a credible track record, maybe you are just pursuing the wrong people. Go after what you want, but get you work to the right people who are interested in it.


All good input and I agree, however talent and drive and relentless pursuit aren't all it takes; one does have to have connects and by and large the money to support and sustain (which is where So many gifted artists are never heard or seen due to lack of funding). Your comment, "...go after what you want, but get your work to teh right people" is exactly why I posted on the board in the first place; I'm searching for this artist, the "people" to get his work in front of. Like I've written, he's acclaimed internationally on various level as a performer (I'd leave his web address here but fear I'd be nailed for doing so - I think you can find it if you're interested) however intrinsically feels most creative when he is composing and arranging. Also, I don't subscribe to the belief that someone has to pine away, earn their stripes, pay dues... in order to be successful - if you're good, credibly good, can get your work in the market, you will succeed.

Oh, and as far as I know from my own reading, Edison actually pilfered and stole the light bulb concepts then bought the rights to everything he's every had his name attached to - thereby reaffirming my comments that the ones with the talent and drive, without the money, can most certainly be left behind.

So this confirms just about everything I've known in the music industry really does transfer to film as well; if you don't know someone, who knows someone who knows someone, your chances are SO painfully slim... this artist, Bryan Baker, has done a body of work at only 22 to intimidate most other musicians

People are only human. We love to be with people we know and are
comfortable with. We love to help people we know. We love to work
with people we like. Talent isn’t the end all of a relationship. If Mr.
Baker was an unprofessional, unfriendly musician with a poor work
ethic and all his current talent, you wouldn't rep him, would you? The
personal is a huge part of why you rep this musician.

That is no different than why a producer hires one.

You asked how to begin the process of networking. The primary
component of networking in making contact with people on a
personal level. You need to know someone, you need to know a lot
of people. This isn’t a bad thing. Networking, getting to know
people, working with a lot of different people is a great way to
change the chances from SO painfully slim to huge.

And I gotta say, when looking for a composer I’m not looking for
someone who intimidates most other musicians. that’s not a plus
for me.

Also, I don't subscribe to the belief that someone has to pine away, earn their stripes, pay dues... in order to be successful - if you're good, credibly good, can get your work in the market, you will succeed.

This is interesting.

Do you know any successful composer who didn't pine away, earn
their stripes and pay their dues before they became successful?
How about any successful person? Do you know a lot of successful
people in any business that didn’t pay their dues and earn their stripes?

I think it's great that you are so passionate about your clients.
I hope as you reinvent how you promote your clients you
encourage them to make the personal contacts producers really
want.

I’m much mote likely to hire a composer when I hear another
producer tell me how great they were to work with, than a manager
telling me to check a website.

Makes it a LOT tougher doesn’t it?

In this particular area, I'm nobody and I know nothing, so take this as a suggestion from the peanut gallery. I recently attended a presentation by the director of "One Tree Hill". He talked about how they ended each episode with a full length music track, and that he had licensed tracks from unknown artists who subsequently sold 20,000 records. My thought is that if you could find the right person on the episodic series and get them to use one of your client's tracks, it could get him the exposure that he would need in the television/movie business.

Just a thought.

Doug

People are only human. We love to be with people we know and are
comfortable with. We love to help people we know. We love to work
with people we like. Talent isn’t the end all of a relationship. If Mr.
Baker was an unprofessional, unfriendly musician with a poor work
ethic and all his current talent, you wouldn't rep him, would you? The
personal is a huge part of why you rep this musician.

That is no different than why a producer hires one.

You asked how to begin the process of networking. The primary
component of networking in making contact with people on a
personal level. You need to know someone, you need to know a lot
of people. This isn’t a bad thing. Networking, getting to know
people, working with a lot of different people is a great way to
change the chances from SO painfully slim to huge.

And I gotta say, when looking for a composer I’m not looking for
someone who intimidates most other musicians. that’s not a plus
for me.


This is interesting.

Do you know any successful composer who didn't pine away, earn
their stripes and pay their dues before they became successful?
How about any successful person? Do you know a lot of successful
people in any business that didn’t pay their dues and earn their stripes?

I think it's great that you are so passionate about your clients.
I hope as you reinvent how you promote your clients you
encourage them to make the personal contacts producers really
want.

I’m much mote likely to hire a composer when I hear another
producer tell me how great they were to work with, than a manager
telling me to check a website.

Makes it a LOT tougher doesn’t it?


Thank you for all the comments, this is extremely valuable input. Yes, I can say that I do know many in the film and music industry especially, that have "made it" without paying alot of dues... what they had were close contacts that pushed the process further and quicker than any due paying - I guess my plan is to find those producers and start the process this way - if I can locate "the one" willing to give this composer the opportunity to do the good work that he can do, then that producer will be encouraged to pass along Bryan as an artist to work with and so the process goes....

Bryan Baker isn't interested in doing anything other than quality work, and his sound is so unique that the niche his playing fits in by virtue of who he is, will dictate the time and patience required to secure a lifetime of working successfully. I'm at least fortunate that this is a client that isn't eager to "be famous" as much as he's hellbent on being good, being known for being good - it just so happens that he's exceptionally good (the quotes I have from legendary performers is crazy for a guy this young) and to wait for the sake of waiting seems odd to me. How is it that someone this gifted needs to pay dues when all along the way, the time spent doing so is time lost in sharing what he has?

So my project now is to find the producers for Bryan and let him take it from there for now.

Thanks again, I do appreciate the feedback, really.

In this particular area, I'm nobody and I know nothing, so take this as a suggestion from the peanut gallery. I recently attended a presentation by the director of "One Tree Hill". He talked about how they ended each episode with a full length music track, and that he had licensed tracks from unknown artists who subsequently sold 20,000 records. My thought is that if you could find the right person on the episodic series and get them to use one of your client's tracks, it could get him the exposure that he would need in the television/movie business.

Just a thought.

Doug

Ah Ha! My thoughts exactly Doug, now how to go about this.... I'm thinking I can research who pulls tunes for episodes; is it the producer's assist? Does that come from editing? I'm not hip to the point person in that area but you're right where my heads been for the past week. I've also got a new EP we're recording over the weekend as a label in the UK is interested in Bryan's work - ah, the juggling - thank goodness the only client in this genre is Bryan or I'd be looped for sure.

Ah Ha! My thoughts exactly Doug, now how to go about this....


You may want look at http://www.taxi.com/ for TV and film placement. Read about this service. They may be able to help you and your artist.

Best of luck!

--Charles

Hi,

I've been away for the last couple of weeks, so I've not had a chance to respond to this thread.

Firstly, in general I'd agree with Rik that I tend to work with people I know... and that that is common practice in this industry.

However, with that said, I've made good, serious business connections here on this board... but not overnight. Like any community it takes time to get to know people... and also to make judgments about whether they are the kind of people you'd want to work with.

In terms of music... I spent a lot of money on music on my last feature project (about $30,000 + $30,000 in deferments) and I found the composer online via his agency.

What drew me to that agency was the quality of the other work these guys were getting. In the end it was a combination of the composer's show reel, his prior experience of working on large projects and the conversation we had about how we wanted to work, that convinced me he was the right guy for the job.

In the end I chose him over a close personal friend who would have done the job for a fraction of the price, which was a though call... but I also believe that the good soundtrack adds a massive amount in terms of production value and a bad one does the opposite.

The other factor that worked for our guy was his ability to access incredible live musicians, within the budget we set him.

I am going to email you directly, because I do have some ideas about ways of establishing a link between new composers and the rest of the industry.

Hope this helps

I am interested in learning the exact same thing. I have been writing music for years. I have wrote music for theatre productions, but I want to expand to films now.

Timothy S. Klugh
Grove City, Ohio, USA

Hi it's been interesting reading this thread. I am currently finishing my degree and am looking to get as much experience as possible. I looked at the 48 hour project site and it looks really exciting, thanks for the tip!

As far as the whether you have to have connections or not argument goes I generally feel that connections are best made in a non commital manner. For example when I have approached people making films I have asked if I can have access to the film as a practice exercise. That way I get to practice and get feedback and people will also look at my work without feeling they have a commitment to use anything that I produce. I find a lot of film makers are happy to have alternative music for their work even if they have no intention of using it.

www.thedoorpost.com

Hi everyone, as someone who knows a little about high level agencies and music soundtracks, I thought Id offer my two cents. Composers need to demonstrate 3 things to filmmakers-

1)the ability to add artistic value to a production through music-this goes beyond making money-you have to meet the filmmaking teams artistic vision for the project-always remember that a film is someones baby.

2)the ability to earn the trust and confidence of the filmmaking team so that they know that their investment in your music will assist them in meeting their financial goals for the film-remember, when they purchase music-it is an investment-a calculated risk-that your music will add value to the film that wasn't there before-value that is worth paying for-this value takes a lot of time and experience composing to build up-many composers make the mistake of thinking that they are worth more than they are, or capable of scoring projects that are simply beyond their current scope. That is okay, everyone has to start somewhere, but it takes time to get there. Value is something that most of the time has to be earned and built-credits and past working relationships do this but it is also a general mindset and an approach to conducting business that separates the amateur from the professional.

3)Professionalism-credits and past working relationships do more than show a composer the value of their investment-it shows your dedication to your craft and that in turn demonstrates your commitment to produce great music, meet deadlines and be able to create music that will sound great and work with the production and thats the bottom line.

So, my best tip for composers is to keep shooting high, but set attainable goals and you will get where your hoping to go. Remember as well that just because your music is great, that still doesn't mean you have the necessary career experience to handle a big project. In all honesty, when you do finally get that big project you will be glad you had to work your way up for a couple years. Then you'll have made your mistakes on films where everyone was laid back and could laugh at them, not when say $50,000 is on the line and the producer from company X is threatening to sue/kill you because your computer crashed when you loaded too many vst's and missed the deadline or because you couldn't afford the proper studio to record 13 cellos and now your mix sounds too 'airy' and 'dry'. Working your way up the ropes has its advantages and targeting the specific filmmakers doing projects at the same level as you is the best way to go. Find out who they are and talk to them personally about where you are at. You might just find that they will think its pretty cool you're at the same spot in your career as they are with theirs.

Just a word of advice from an agency guy who sees ALOT of music and hears a lot of filmmaker's frustrations (whether they are making 500$ projects or huge ones!). Feel free to PM me, filmmakers or composers and let me know your thoughts. I hope it helps.

Robert

This is a fantastic thread, I must say!

I'm by no means a success story when it comes to composing for film/media, I took a break from it for years while I went all "classical" and focussed on teaching, but I have found that if you do a great job for people they will want to hire you again.

Sometimes I've worked on independent zero-budget films where I've thought the production values and script were lacking, but I always wrote the best quality score I could, with the highest production values I could muster. I figure someone might watch the film and think to themselves "crappy film, but awesome music!" and then look out for my name in the credits. It's surprising how much work leads to more work. Directors and producers learn to trust and respect you. Soon enough they spread the word about you and you find you are suddenly in demand. One of those directors could break through, it could be a significant leg-up in your career.

This thread has oodles of fantastic advice - encourage your boy Bryan and tell him that the cream always rises to the top eventually. If he's the best thing since sliced bread then the secret won't be kept for very long. But don't let the fact that he's talented prevent him from taking part in fun and exciting collaborations with other emerging artists.

originally posted by Leah Kardos:

"I figure someone might watch the film and think to themselves "crappy film, but awesome music!"

That´s the point. Good music reflects good technique (orchestration, counterpoint, harmony and so on), good balance, good taste, strong themes (that sort of remarkable themes), sensibility, and believe me, producers and directors would cut their thumb finger off to get a young composer that has ALL of these qualities I mentioned above and many others that I didn´t mention...

So, I think that the first (and probably the best) way to promote composing for films is the excellent quality of your music. Today every professional (not only in the entertainment industry) are not tolarating avarage or simply good stuffs, they want something better than good, avarage or functional...

I believe that looking for young talented directors (that might be in college right now) is the best way to get a career...

PS
Sorry about my english... There´s a long time I don´t practice it....

Take Care!