Just asking, but how much money a year do you guys like to be paid? How much money would you be willing to take in order to provide your movie to a distributer?

Please be reasonable when responding. Keep it in a sensible range like 3000 a month, for a company does that sound reasonable? Or would you guys rather be paid on commission bases where the more movies you sell, the more you make.

I am interested in hearing feedback.

Also another question for you filmmakers, how long does it take to make a movie and on average, how many movies have you made?

Just asking, but how much money a year do you guys like to be paid?

I think most would respond, "enough to make a living." But most director/writer/producer jobs are freelance, so we get fees instead of annual salaries. And the amount varies from gig to gig. In LA, you're looking at $75K as a minimum starting salary. On a modestly budgeted film, that would pay one director for one feature film.

How much money would you be willing to take in order to provide your movie to a distributer?

Please be reasonable when responding. Keep it in a sensible range like 3000 a month, for a company does that sound reasonable? Or would you guys rather be paid on commission bases where the more movies you sell, the more you make.

You generally get an upfront fee and then a percentage of the backend for most distribution deals. Both terms are negotiable and vary widely in range.

Also another question for you filmmakers, how long does it take to make a movie and on average, how many movies have you made?

That really depends on the movie, both in terms of logistics and budget. My feature film took about two weeks to shoot and a few months to post. My friend just made a $2 million film that had 19 days to shoot and a few months to post. Another friend took about a year to post a similarly budgeted film.

How much ya got?? ....sorry, that wasn't exactly constructive, was it? :D

I am glad this is a post, because I don't have any idea....so long as I am treated fairly....


-- spinner :cool:

There isn't a fixed answer to these questions because each movie is a unique project.

I'm also not sure I understand some of your questions. For instance, when you ask how long it take to make a film, do you mean the actual production/post production? Or, do you mean from concept to post production?

The production element of a film can go from three weeks to up to six months... post production can go about the same. However, it often takes a year for a screenplay to go from idea to a script that's ready for production. Pre-production can take anything up to three years. So, in fact you can be looking at a four to five year process to make a movie.

In terms of money... that also floats. You have to think of each movie as a small business... investment goes in, as does labour... each movie attempts to bring more in from sales than it spent on production.

The figure people will sell a film for often depends on what part of the distribution cycle of desperation they are in... if they've just finished post and are all optimistic they'll want a higher figure than if they've had nine months of rejections from other distributors.

In terms of what I'd like to get paid... well, most indies would be happy to get paid, full stop. Personally as a screen writer I don't like to cut a deal that's worth less than $50K... unless I've bills that need paying and no work! In which case, make me an offer. I've know good writers take "writer for hire" gigs where they knocked out a screenplay for $5K.

Just asking, but how much money a year do you guys like to be paid? How much money would you be willing to take in order to provide your movie to a distributer?
I would like to be paid way more than I get paid. I'm willing to take the best offer.

Please be reasonable when responding. Keep it in a sensible range like 3000 a month, for a company does that sound reasonable? Or would you guys rather be paid on commission bases where the more movies you sell, the more you make.
$3,000 a month isn't reasonable. Not to me. That isn't sensible range for me as an
individual so no way would $3,000 a month be a sensible range for my company.

I don't like to be paid on a commission basis, or take a percentage. Too many of the
small, DVT distributors want to pay very little up front and promise a high percentage
and that's too easy to hide. I would rather get a higher up front payment and a small
percentage. I'm quite realistic when it comes to the movies I make and the market.

Also another question for you filmmakers, how long does it take to make a movie and on average, how many movies have you made?
I agree with Beeble and clive. This question is too broad to answer. I've shot movies in three
days with ten days of post production. I once cut and did all the audio work on a
feature (80min) in 40 hours - straight. I ran out of money on one movie with 4 days
left to shoot, took a year (to the day) to raised enough to get it in the can, took
another 14 months off to raise the post-production money and finished it just about
4 years after the cast auditions.

On average, I shoot for 18 to 24 days, cut the picture in 24 and do the all the audio
work in 18. So a total of 10 to 12 weeks.

Wow thanks you guys for all the input. I was asking to evaluate how many production companies I should allow in my distribution established online sort of like Netflix but Indie style.

Reading what you guys have told me, would 20,000 k a month sound reasonable?

And by the how long it takes to make a movie, I was referring to full length films that are of excellent quality. Films that would sell for $5 each.

opps I accidently put 20,000 k when I meant $20,000. Sorry.

I...would probably be happy with whatever would allow me to live (reasonably) comfortable and be able to write for a living.

Reading what you guys have told me, would 20,000 k a month sound reasonable?

I'm not exactly understanding the monthly payment. What would that cover and for how long would the payments be? What would you want for that?

I, too, am confused on what the $20,000 a month is about.
Is that figure for running a company, including salaries,
insurance, taxes and overhead?

I was asking to evaluate how many production companies I should allow in my distribution established online sort of like Netflix but Indie style.
I don't understand this, either.

Are you thinking of starting a company like NetFlix? And wanting
to know how many prodCo's you should allow to to have their
movies in your rental system?

I, too, am confused on what the $20,000 a month is about.
Is that figure for running a company, including salaries,
insurance, taxes and overhead?


I don't understand this, either.

Are you thinking of starting a company like NetFlix? And wanting
to know how many prodCo's you should allow to to have their
movies in your rental system?

I tried responding to this question yesterday through a long explanation but I guess the website didn't receive it. So I guess I'll type it again...

Responding to your question Directorik and anyone else asking, yes thats exactly what I was looking for. Its like Netflix except that 20,000 each month has to be competed for. 10 producers get the spot.

I would like to explain the rest but since the project is in the works, as my programmer says it would require a lot of money, I am only gathering interest for now.

This is only suppose to be a distributing company online, and the hope is that you keep all the rights to your film. We just promote it to people online.

My project that is in reasonable goal to achieve right now is providing a "trailer studio" for production comapanies. Send us your trailers and spread the word to your film. Thats all for now

As I am a man of my words, I will keep you guys updated. Thats if you guys are interested in this project.

I'm all for new business models, but this strikes me as kind of an odd idea. NO ONE does it this way. Netflix either buys copies of the movie outright or does revenue sharing. And they obviously don't limit themselves to 10 movies.

If you compare yourself to a traditional distributor (like a Lionsgate for example), they do limit the number of films they take on, but again, they do an upfront fee plus revenue sharing. I can't think of any way to sustain a month payment model for producers.

How do you see your revenue model for your business? How would YOU make money?

I tried responding to this question yesterday through a long explanation but I guess the website didn't receive it. So I guess I'll type it again...

Responding to your question Directorik and anyone else asking, yes thats exactly what I was looking for. Its like Netflix except that 20,000 each month has to be competed for. 10 producers get the spot.

I would like to explain the rest but since the project is in the works, as my programmer says it would require a lot of money, I am only gathering interest for now.

This is only suppose to be a distributing company online, and the hope is that you keep all the rights to your film. We just promote it to people online.

My project that is in reasonable goal to achieve right now is providing a "trailer studio" for production comapanies. Send us your trailers and spread the word to your film. Thats all for now

As I am a man of my words, I will keep you guys updated. Thats if you guys are interested in this project.

I could definitely get into something like that.

Definitely keep us posted, eh?

I'm all for new business models, but this strikes me as kind of an odd idea. NO ONE does it this way. Netflix either buys copies of the movie outright or does revenue sharing. And they obviously don't limit themselves to 10 movies.

If you compare yourself to a traditional distributor (like a Lionsgate for example), they do limit the number of films they take on, but again, they do an upfront fee plus revenue sharing. I can't think of any way to sustain a month payment model for producers.

How do you see your revenue model for your business? How would YOU make money?

I limit myself to 10 production companies in order to make money for myself. See if I get 100,000 subscribers from the U.S, which is tiny compared to Netflix with 8mil, I would make 300,000 dollars. 200,000 would go to the winning producers and the remaining 100,000 would be left for my web site costs and my company.

I would pay a upfront fee for producers and also pay them for their online content movies that are also for free through ad revenue. 1000 page views equals 5 dollars. The benefit of subscribing is so that you can watch movies in Higher quality and have them delivered to your door steps without thinks about returning them.

If they do return them, they get a sort of cash back rewarded which can then be used to get stuff that would intern sort of promote the site.

20000 dollars a month is competed for. Meaning you might receive 20000 a month if your movies happen to always be the most watched.

We do not keep the rights to your films because there is no need to. Subsequently, we don't pay as much as a traditional distributer. Instead, the films that fail to make the cut, stay in the online database.

We strive to make our producers more like our partners then like a distant associate. That said, the plan is to make as much as our producers make. No more, no less. We are therefore equals.

Expect completion 1 year from now

OK... I've this kind of maths before and it never works. The problem is, as I see it, for the model to work it requires 100,000 subscribers.

You're right, this is a small percentage of Netflix customers... but, what percentage of those customers use Netflix to exclusively watch no-name drama from unknown directors? And surely the whole point of Netflix is the huge range of choices... not just a limited choice of ten movies.

I just don't see how this works from a customer's point of view.

Film marketing is an incredibly complex issue, because each film is a unique product and finding a connection between the audience and the film is incredibly difficult. It's not the kind of business you should get into if you've no experience of the film industry.

I can't tell you how many people I've seen look at indie film making and then at the internet, only to them leap to the conclusion that there is natural synergy between the two... there isn't.

The kind of movies that are attracted to this kind of distribution will be those that can't get a traditional release. The reason they can't get a legitimate release is because the distributors couldn't see a way to connect a paying audience to the product. Which means, unless you've discovered a new way to sell unknown movies to a customer base prepared to pay for them, then you'll be lucky to achieve 100 subscribers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there aren't untapped audiences... there are, but I've yet to hear anyone pitch an online film distribution scheme that didn't sound like it was written on the back of a cereal box.

Bottom line is you're asking the wrong questions... and the fact that you're asking them tells me you don't know enough about the business to survive... especially in distribution.

Wow. I wrote a whole rant last night and then decided "screw it" and didn't post... but Clive nailed it.

I don't even understand your idea properly. Are you looking to distribute the works of 10 producers, or will you be hosting as many features on your site as possible and only compensate the 10-most-viewed? If that's the case, bull.

You said at one point you wanted to consider the producer and yourself (the distributor) as equal partners... so let's say I make a feature for $10-20K, hire the crew, inspire the cast, raise the funds, get the equipment, write the script, shoot the sucker over 6 weeks to a year, spend all of my time and energy as well as that of my cast and crew... edit it, export it in a format ready for the web....

And then you host it on your site and are entitled to 50% of the work?

Excuse my french, but FUCK THAT.

The reason traditional distribution is so heavy on their cut is because they market it to the mainstream with huge ad budgets and executive payrolls. Half of it is just executive memberships to gof clubs and other such inflated overhead. Which is why they won't take a movie who they don't think has the potential to make the millions needed to cover payroll/marketing/distribution costs on a large scale.

So if you're looking to serve the "indies" at the low-budget, can't get distribution level... then it's likely that 99% of the movies you host will be pretty crappy. So as Clive says, how are you going to find your market for 100,000 people if 99% of your movies are crap indies?
And for your HALF of the profit, what will YOU be doing that equals the time and effort of my 50+ crew/cast and all their work at MAKING a product that you can put in stock?

Distribution over the internet on the level you're talking about is the equivalent of a "fulfillment house". Since you're hosting more than one movie, obviously all you have to do is develop ONE system and apply it to all movies with very little difference of work between titles.

So you get 50% for that?
And since I don't even understand your actual goals, methods, etc... (you said it yourself, you're just in the early stages of an IDEA), I would NEVER go for this.

Revver does a 50/50 split of ad revenue for short/viral videos... most I've gotten on one video is a little over 2000 views, which netted me approxamtely $3 in ad revenue. Now... do you think it's EASIER or HARDER to get someone to sit through a feature film?

So to me, it sounds like someone hasn't done their research and is looking to grab a slice of the "distribution money train pie" while "helping" indies... but the indies here seem to have a better grasp on how to distribute then you do.... hmmm...

Bottom line is you're asking the wrong questions... and the fact that you're asking them tells me you don't know enough about the business to survive... especially in distribution.
How does one learn if they don't ask questions?

I remember being told this when I was just starting out. It froze me.
I came close to getting out of the business I was just exploring.
Fortunately soon after I met someone who answered my questions
which lead me to a career I love.

No offense to you, clive, I know you don't mean to put kingjet down,
but asking questions here is what this place is all about. Especially for
people who don't know enough about the business to survive. Your
experience can be of invaluable benefit to him and the rest of us.

That said, nothing in your business model (so far) makes any sense
to me, kingjet. You aren't talking 100,000 people, you are talking
100,000 people every month paying to watch movies made by
unknowns director starring no known actors. Have you done any
research to suggest that that many people are interested in the kinds
of films you will host? And are interested in paying $5 to watch them?

And like Spatula, I would throw away a contract where the on-line
distributor is an equal partner with me, the producer. Perhaps a re-think
of that aspect might be in order.

I understand what you're saying Rik, but unless people tell you you're asking the wrong questions, you never get to ask the right ones.

I watch people everyday let other people walk into train wrecks, simply because they won't be honest in their opinions. If someone writes a bad script and I tell them it's great, I may keep them in the business but at what cost? Same with a business plan...

My lack of understanding of the way the distribution worked, when I first started in the business, cost me: a house, two marriages, a personal bankruptcy, a dog and set my career back about seven years. All of which could have been avoided if someone had done for me, what I just did for kingjet.

Nicely said guys both Rik and Clive. I will surely look way more into it before I release this idea. I have a little experience in marketing but this is totally different that what I have done in the past. Thanks for the comments and remarks no matter how harsh they are ;), I understand its for the better and I love the bad comments that you guys are throwing at me. Because if not now, then it would be later so all the better.

As for the equal status thing I thought it was fair that the amount of marketing I throw towards selling your movies would be equivalent, but I guess that's farce so if that must be, I'll accept no profit for the first year or so.

Actually, after just doing some more research, I would like to ask you guys what you think about the website createspace.com. This website is managed by Amazon. I would like to hear comments about this site and if you would use it. If you would, tell me why and if you wouldn't, tell me what parts you would like to see more off.

As for now, what do you guys think about a website that would promote your trailers for free?

I am sorry if my questions and ideas sound like their from "the back of a cereal box", as this industry is a curiosity to me, I hope you would be kind it letting me help you.

As for now, what do you guys think about a website that would promote your trailers for free?


Well, there are hundreds of those out there. You don't look at them, I don't
look at them, no one I knows looks at them. And there are a lot of sites like
createspace.com, too. DVD "on demand" sites abound - though this one, being
directly connected to Amazon has it's advantage. I used it when it was called
CustomFlix.

But we continue to come back to the real problem with independent films. How
do you get people to pay to watch a movie made filmmakers they don't know,
starring actors they've never heard of? You don't do it. clive doesn't do it. I don't
do it. Getting a movie on line is easy, getting paying customers isn't. Have you
thought of how you are going to bring in the number you will need to generate
the kind of money you need? Who is the market for indie film?

Now if you can come up with a way to get the word out there, to get people
to pay money to see indie films, you've got yourself a business. The hosting of
the films is the easy part. All the hosting/shared revenue sites I've ever seen
then expect the filmmaker to do all the advertising. It's the filmmaker who
needs to bring in the page hits. As a producer of independent films, if you could
get me 100,000 hits a month - hell!, even 10,000 hits a month - on my movie
page through creatspace.com I'd be willing to share revenue 50/50 with you.

yeah, an online publishing gig would be pretty cool...you could split adsense revenues or something :) Getting the eyeballs on some of our shorts/features would be pretty difficult though. Mine are still pretty rough. And If I were putting that kind of budget into making a feature, The web wouldn't be my preferred distro model. Unless you could prove to me that it'll monetize my product, that kind of investment that I'm responsible for repaying would have me pursuing a much more traditional distro model...even touring my film personally has a stronger history that my imaginary investors would go for rather than an unproven system.

There's the catch 22 of any new business of course is that without customers, you can't build a protfolio, without a portfolio, you can't attract customers. I would think you'd need to spend a year or two at a loss proving it can work for indy filmmakers who act now and take 5% for the first year for anyone willing to sign up within that first two years. That way you can build a client base and a portfolio that you can then use in your prospectus to prove that you can indeed monetize indie films online. After the results of that are in, then you can start raising your price...and if you set that our from the start, that the 2 years is a limited time early bird bonus that will go up after that, it won't be shocking when you do so.

The drawback is that many indy movies are so frequently made available for free, that you'll need to break through that audience expectation.

OK.

I don't know if this will help, but here is my understanding of the issues.

Basically people buy and rent films that they've heard of... or staring someone they've heard of... or made by someone they've heard of.

Most indie films can only hope to reach an audience by playing with the "films people have heard of" part of that equation... because most indies are unknown and use unknown casts.

The big question in film marketing is how you create a buzz for an unknown film.

If you're able to create a buzz for an indie film, then the means of distribution becomes largely irrelevant.

Indie films are usually incredibly hard to create a buzz for... simply because they're often ill conceived as products, or bad films or both.

I'll use my film "No Place" as an example. Shot on HD with a substantial budget it has failed to find distribution despite the fact that every distributor who has seen it liked the film. It's failed to sell, not because it's a bad film... but because distributors can't see a way to put it in front of an audience. The reason... unknown director, unknown cast, not a genre film (some genres sell regardless of cast). There just isn't a way to create a buzz for the movie... and as the writer/director, that's my fault. I made the classic mistake of making a film that can't be sold.

The truth is, there are lots of films out there just like mine... some of them are pretty good films, but the vast majority of them can't find a place in the market.

Now I happen to believe that out there, there are people who would enjoy my film... but as it stands it's next to impossible to create a viable link between potential audiences and indie films.

If there is any potential gap in the market... it is in that area... but trust me, I've been looking at this for twelve years now and I've still to find anyone with a credible solution to this problem.

I've had exactly the same experience as clive with my movie,
"dark crimes". It's an award winning movie that several
distributors have really liked - LGF sent people to three different
festival screenings to judge the audience reaction. But they
can't see a way to create the all important "buzz".

How do they get people to see a movie made by an unknown
writer/director with a no name cast without that all important
genre "hook"? Something my movie doesn't have. However,
my giant, marauding cockroach movie, made for $8,700 sold
just under 4,000 units.

Go figure....

I've brought this up several times, so please forgive me regulars:
You need to look at your own movie watching habits.

In the last 12 months how many feature length indie movies
have you watched on line?
In the last 12 months how many feature length indie movies
have members of your family watched on line?

How many have you rented in a store of from NetFlix?

If you don't do it and don't know anyone who does, do you still
think there is a good business model there? Even us filmmakers
of indie movies don't rent, watch on line or buy movies made
by filmmaker we don't know, starring actors we've never hear of.

I love your idea kingjet and I'd love to see it work.

I don't think it's possible to change people's buying habits. However, people will buy/rent/download movies by unknown directors with unknown casts if they think the film is interesting enough. The real question is what it'll take to get that interest.

My personal opinion is that only person who can effect the marketing outcome of a movie is the actual film maker. If they get the concept right, the movie will sell... if not it won't.

I don't think a site showing trailers is the answer... simply because I don't see the motivation for people to watch the trailers. I don't think people are trawling the internet looking for indie films.

What usually happens is a film comes to the mass media's attention for some reason... then the same thing that hooked the media also hooks in punters... if they get excited enough they then tell their friends.

The best model I can think of at the moment is a e-mail listings service called B3ta (http://www.b3ta.com/) ... they email out a weekly sheet of cool stuff they've found on the internet. As a result they've become massively influential in the European media business, because they find the stuff people like.

The real problem is there aren't enough really cool, undiscovered indie films out there to justify a magazine or listings service.

I dunno.

You'd be amazed at what people do on the Internet when they're bored as hell.

I really do think there's a venue for it.

I found a site that might be of interest to you guys. Actually, this was almost exactly what I was thinking of, seems someone has already thought of it. Jaman.com is a business model made directly for independent films and world films. Check it out. And as always feedback would be nice.

They offer high quality movies that people pay to download to own or to rent. Heck, I supporting my newfound rival but what the heck. When you click on a movie, it plays a trailer of that movie and if you register, the fist 4 movies are free.

Is this model good? What are your guys idea on this. My idea is to make a similar site, but slightly lower prices and a option of subscription. Any ideas, questions, comments are welcomed.

ps: my idea contains more I am just not going to explain in detail yet

Actually, this was almost exactly what I was thinking of, seems someone has already thought of it. Jaman.com is a business model made directly for independent films and world films. Check it out. And as always feedback would be nice.

They offer high quality movies that people pay to download to own or to rent. Heck, I supporting my newfound rival but what the heck. When you click on a movie, it plays a trailer of that movie and if you register, the fist 4 movies are free.

A couple of crucial differences between the two models. They have over a thousand movies to rent. You will offer less than twenty. And they almost certainly have a revenue sharing plan with the distributors/filmmakers rather than a large recurring payment in the tens of thousands of dollars.

So you have an excellent business model to emulate. Some heavy
hitters in the business are involved in that site - Jeff Berg, Bill Bradley,
Ed Pressman and Riyad Shahjahan - big money, major industry
clout. They offer their product through TiVo and AppleTV. And, as
Beeble noted, they started with 1,000 movies from major international
distributors and filmmakers.

Any idea how much Gaurav Dhillon invested to start it?
The site went live 12 months ago. Do you know if they are making a
profit yet? Do you know what their traffic is like, what their revenue
share to the filmmakers is or how many movies a month they rent
and sell?

I notice that their demographic are the "the 56 million people who live
in the United States but were born elsewhere or speak a language
other than English with deserving but little-known foreign films that
probably won't make it to U.S. megaplexes." And they offer big budget,
big name Indian films. That's a HUGE market.

kingjet - when you are ready to build content, I'm very interested in
providing it. Keep us informed.

I've had exactly the same experience as clive with my movie,
"dark crimes".

Hi Rik,

Can I find "Dark Crimes" available anywhere for purchase. I'd like to see it.

Thanks,
Justin

I notice that their demographic are the "the 56 million people who live
in the United States but were born elsewhere or speak a language
other than English with deserving but little-known foreign films that
probably won't make it to U.S. megaplexes." And they offer big budget,
big name Indian films. That's a HUGE market.

and me... like I pointed out in a different thread, I really like World Cinema... it's hard to get and also to keep track of.

But the key point is they went specific and then went after the BIG players in that market... what impressed me with this site was the first thing i saw was a banner ad for "Dogville" ... so that immediately makes me take the other offerings more seriously.

This is probably a service I'll use... more so now I live in Italy.

This is probably a service I'll use... more so now I live in Italy.

OMG, where in Italy? I have relatives near Savona... haven't seen the in a while (year and years)... I should write to them, geez... anyway, they have a nice 3-level property with close (a block) access to a beach/boardwalk and everything... big backyard and gardens- the place was a paradise for me when I went during my early teens. Anyway, I'll have to get in contact with them again (been meaning to anyway), but if you needed a location for a film, it's something to think about. You in the North or South of it now?

Savona is really close, I'm living in Milan now.

I think we're about a generation away from the internet being a really big distro channel (it's already making moves toward it). My daughter watches 30min shows on the web all the time (I'm sure someone posted them illegally), she doesn't seem to mind all the technical stuff that prevents me from watching and enjoying 'net based content. Perhaps we're just too close to it as content creators when it comes to quality of broadcast. The end judge of it is really the audience at large, which we are not as we come from a different, more analytical perspective than most.

Yeah...I'd definitely say we're going to see that going down over the next few years.

Definitely something significant within the next ten years.

I prefer 3K -- 5000 for my skill.
I can take up many works of either technology or plan produce. How much do you think I m paid?