Hello all! Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Matt, I live in Phoenix, AZ, and have loved making movies my entire life. It was never anything serious, but I always loved taking whatever video camera I could and just making... something. I started with the age-old Tyco videocam. Now I am much matured, have a beautiful baby daughter, and amazing wife. I figure now is the time to realize my dream and begin making all the films I have been storing in my head. I know a less than fair amount when it comes to the technical aspects of higher quality video cameras - but I am ready and able to learn. I am about to take some filmmaking college classes, and want a quality tool while doing so. As opposed to a previous thread I saw here, I am looking to spend whatever is necessary for quality. I know I will probably want a 3-chip camera, but thats about as far as I know... I want something that can delivery the result of something seen on TV at least. However, I know not to buy ANYTHING without advice from fellows such as yourselves. Obviously, I want to spend as little as possible for that quality, but whatever that costs I am aware can be high. I was looking at the SONY HDR-FX1 HDV 1080i - it seems to get pretty good reviews and people say it is amazing for the price... is this true? Is it a good camera? Is there something better that is close in price? I need advice! Thank you all!

It always varies dependent on the circumstances, but what I'd recommend (generally) is:

1. Go out and get a cheap-as-hell (3ccd) camcorder... (I use a Panasonic PV-GS 180). When you upgrade to the next camera, this can become a behind-the-scenes cam, as well as a Tape Deck for Editing/Capturing footage. (Assuming you stick with SD format)

2. If you haven't already... Make a bunch of cheap shorts/sketches for the web to flex your hand at script writing, shooting, acting, editing, etc... try and see what areas you're best at so you can delegate the weak spots later to others. The feedback you'll get from these shorts will be invaluable, creatively and technically.

3. Once you feel that you have the creative side in hand and have built up enough tech know-how and have some people in your "crew", upgrade your tech... instead of the SONY, I'd go with the slightly more affordable (and still sexy to this day) DVX100a (or "b")... It might be best to stick with the DVX because it's still higher end consumer SD (gets a nice image too!), and HD cams WILL require several upgrades.... a lighting kit and a HUGE CPU/Hard Drive upgrade, etc.... I'd rather take a DVX100b and a 5 piece lighting kit, a nice audio kit and some money left over to feed actors than an HD set-up at this point... and it'd probably be cheaper, unless of course, you have the money to burn, in which case, I'd still say there's better stuff to spend it on...

Consider these:
-Let the format SERVE the story... just look at the new "Cloverfield" (produced by JJ Abrahms)... shot on SD.. the format serves the story... google that and see the trailer to know what I'm talking about. It looks CRAZY good!
-Writing is more important than ANYTHING.
-The "Movie Look" doesn't ONLY mean "shot on film or high-tech cameras"... it means shot types, props, lighting, costumes, acting, locations, STORY, etc... What good will an HD camera do if you're shooting in your backyard? The camera quality is really only like 5% of the battle... people DO watch videos on Youtube (even though they all look like shit due to Youtube's compression) because the other aspects are well produced...

- Consider these other purchases/rentals/loans/aspects... the camera is not the be-all-end-all.....

A good AUDIO BOOM MIC and some WIRELESS LAVALIERS....
If you're not plugging audio into the camera.... an EXTERNAL RECORDING DEVICE
Lighting kit, 5-10 pieces, stands for the lights, gels, refractors and reflectors and whatnot...
Props
Costumes
External Hard Drives for footage (you WILL need these, LOL)
Catering
Cast + Crew payments, pending your deals
Location Rentals
Transportation costs
If you can't write, Screenplay cost...
Special Effects?
Marketing expenses (film festival submissions + shipping, DVD prints, web hosting, etc, etc)
Music, if you can't get it free
Legal expenses, if you want to go all the way
etc, etc... you get the point... (fancy way of saying I'm tired and I've run out of brain-juice)

4. Shoot the sucker.

So basically, though I'm just one voice, I'd say start making shorts with WHATEVER you can muster... then upgrade to the DVX100 (or find someone in film class with one)... concentrate on STORY and the "other" things that make a movie a movie (lighting & writing!... and audio-ing).. rent it, borrow it, hire a person who owns it, whatever... but don't go out and buy a camera until you've had a good long think about all of these things (not JUST the camera), which is also why I think it's important to make shorts with what you HAVE... if you know a few people with cameras, it might be better to get Mics and Lights... if you find that you're better at editing video, but you can't shoot it well, it might be better to get a Director Of Photography with their own camera and for you to spend money upgrading your system.. etc, etc... there's LOTS to consider!

For most of the above things, you can find low-budget solutions... that's what "Indie" and "Guerrilla" filmmaking is all about... some people get REALLY creative with their solutions, and that's what it's all about... but definitely shop around before you buy... don't just look at the camera, but the overall picture... Do you have $5000 to spend on a camera, or on a MOVIE?!?

Once again though... I LOVE the DVX100's. If HD is your thing, though, go for it... just be aware that HD requires a lot of other accessories to REALLY pull of the TV/Movie look... what's your end goal? Looking to make movies for the internet, or for the big screen?

Anyway, hope that helps. I should've gone to bed half an hour ago... Why am I still typing?

...

And, fin.

Thank you for the informative reply! How much should I expect to pay for the camera you recommended?

welcome to indietalk, Hecubus.

The FX1 is a fine camera. But make sure you fully understand that
the camera isn't what give you the quality you need. A camera is
one of the tools and one with more features is better than one
with few features. But as Spatula said, there is so much more to
getting quality than the camera. Excellent lighting and sound is
essential.

Since you want to spend as little as possible for a camera, you
will need to make sure you learn how to light well and get
excellent audio.

There are three things that are VERY important when getting a
camera:

Three CCD’s
Manual controls for the iris, shutter, focus and white balance.
A microphone input.

The JVC GZ-HD3 is a nice starter camera that records to a 60GB HDD
with manual controls and a mic input. It can be found for around
$800.

The Panasonic series (PV-GS300, PV-GS400, PV-GS500) are terrific
3CCD cameras. It seems the 400 is hard to find and that’s too
bad. It’s a great little camera. But the 500 is still an
excellent starter camera with the essentials.

Sony DCR-HC1000 is very similar to the Panasonic cameras. If
you’re more comfortable with Sony, this is the camera for you.

I like the new JVC GZ-HD7. I’ve seen these on line for as little
as $1,200. A really nice Fujinon lens makes a huge difference and
full manual controls is important. Three 1/5’ 16:9 progressive
scan CCD’s are pretty impressive for a camera in this price
range. It records directly to a built in 60GB hard drive.

Close is the Canon HV20. It records in HDV (1080i) and 24p (60i),
has a mic input and manual controls of white balance and focus
but it uses one 1/2.7” CMOS sensor rather than 3 CCD’s. For me
the jury is still out on the CMOS. And it’s so small the handling
is difficult.

Check B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/)for prices.

Thank you! I'm glad I found this place! LOL! Yes, I know the camera is only one of many aspects when making a quality video - but I know if I start with something snazzy it'll keep me that much more motivated... lets say I have $2000 to spend on one - what would be the best quality for that price?

I can't say I've used a lot of different cameras because I haven't, but I have a Canon GL2, and I'm pretty happy with it. It has a nice lens, manual controls for the iris, shutter, focus and white balance, 3CCD's, and there is an attachment that goes on the top that will let you hook up an external mic. The attachment is not included and costs about a hundred and fifty bucks I think. The camera was around $2200 but that was 3 years ago, so I'd bet you could get it for $2000 now. I've used it to make several videos and a feature, and will probably make another feature with it before I think about tradin up. It does well outdoors and in low light, and it has a good size, not so big that it's a pain in the ass to carry around, but not so small that you feel like a tourist or somebody shooting home videos. I also bought a wide angle lens and a big battery to go with it. You probably want to go to a store that will let you try out a few different models, to make sure you like the way they feel, and then shop around online to find a good price. Anyway that's my two cents (from an admittedly limited perspective!), best of luck!

Just checked and here are some places where you can have a look at the GL2. One place seems to be offering it for $799, which would be a great deal if it's legit. All the rest are around $1600. Anyway, here it is:

http://www.shopcartusa.com/P_Canon_GL2_7920A001/View_Reviews/

wow, thanks! How can I know if the cheaper ones are legit or not???

I guess just check to see that they have good customer feedback. Call em up and talk to manager to make sure there aren't any hidden charges. You might also want to look at exactly what is included in the price. Sometimes they only include the bare minimum and make you buy other stuff that should be included (AC adaptor, shoulder strap, etc.) seperate. There were 2 different places selling it for $799 though, so maybe the price has just gone down. That's probably to be expected with everybody rushing for HD. Might be a good time to buy.

Ok, now tell me - what is better? HD or 3ccd?

I don't really have much experience with HD, so I'm probably not the man to ask. I'm guessing the picture is better with HD, but as everybody will tell you (again and again but with good reason) the quality of your camera is only part of what makes a good looking movie. Lighting makes a HUGE difference, as does compostion, camera work, etc. The main reasons I stayed away from buying an HD camera were #1-Price because HD cameras were still crazy expensive 3 years ago, and #2 - Editing because apparently HD is a huge pain in the ass when it comes to editing (with Final Cut Pro anyway). Maybe that's changed with the new version of FCP though, I'm not sure. Price is obviously not that much of an issue anymore, but then again every dollar you save on a camera is a dollar you can spend on other things you'll need (boom mic, light, basically everything Spatula listed above). In addition to the camera, I also bought a pretty good Audio Technica shotgun mic, the wide angle lens, a few big batteries, plus lamp holders and lights. This was a seriously bare bones setup, but it still ran me probably ran me another $1000 on top of what I paid for the camera. Plus, my brother had a copy of Final Cut Pro that I was able to use, but if your brother doesn't, that'll be like another $1000. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if money's no object, go for HD, but if not you might be better off spending that extra money on other stuff. Don't worry that it'll look like shit if it's not HD. If you take the time to light well and set things up properly you can still get great results with SD.

assuming I had everything else needed - would the GL2 be able to be used for green screen effects?

3CCD means that there is 3 chips for the three colors: Red, Blue, Green.
I'm not a big techie-monster, but using an analogy, having three chips handle three colors is better than one because it's like trying to cram all your shirts, pants and socks in one drawer, versus three.. each drawer deals with it's own type of clothing smoother.... Also means it's good for greenscreen (although lighting is UBER important) because it separates the colors better... like my girlfriend, when she does my laundry (don't worry, I cook).

HD is a different format than standard Def... it records MUCH more information that SD, which is why it needs so many accessories.... try NOT putting makeup on an actor and shooting in HD. Pornography hates HD because all the ass-pimples show up. It's very sensitive. Thus, it would probably be a lot better for Greenscreen work..

However, that being said, check this out: http://fxhome.com/

They have a product that will make GREAT greenscreen and Special FX relatively cheap. I'm a big fan of their programs. With that in mind, the higher the format, the better the Greenscreen will work, but that's not to say there isn't a more "indie" way to do it that jumping right on up to HD.

Ass pimples...

That's what's been keeping me out of porn.

A warning about "shopusa". They are a clearing house and most of the sellers listed pay
them to be at the top. And the sellers who are paying them are usually scams.

Always check B&H Photo/Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/) for legit prices. If a seller is selling too much below their
price be very, very careful.

The $2,000 to $3,000 range. Time to get serious. A camera in this range should have is
XLR mic inputs and, of course, manual controls. The bigger the CCD’s the better. There
are about a dozen cameras in this range but not one of them has XLR inputs. The five I've used:

The Panasonic AG-DVC60 is the only shoulder mounted cameras in this price range. Controls
are more consumer oriented. Movie-Like mode inferior to true progressive imaging; no
built-in XLR ports but it has the essentials.

The Canon Gl2 is in my opinion the best in this price range. Still no XLR inputs and the
"frame mode" is inferior, but this is a really nice camera for the price.

The Sony DCR-VX2100 really gives the GL-1 a run for the money. It’s really small so
no XLR inputs, but it does have a headphone jack.

The Sony DCR-TRV950 is a terrific camera with all the essentials. Again, no XLR input.

Sony HDR-FX7 is a fine camera and less expensive than the others. It has 3 1/4” CMOS
Sensors but no option to record to hard drive or solid-state media. It’s Ziess lens is nice,
but fixed and no XLR inputs.

Well it sounds like I'll be going with a GL2 - now I must ask - is it pointless to buy such a thing unless I have proper computer capabilities to support it? And if so, what (at least) would I require? I guess what I'm saying is if I ONLY have the camera, is there gonna be much I can do besides film unedited video?

Also - is it safe to purchase these from ebay? As long as it is from a reputable seller?

You're right about the lack of an XLR adaptor on the GL2, but Canon sells one that fits right on the top. It's called the MA-300, and it costs about $150-200, but it works well and is absolutely worth it.

would an auction such as this be a good deal?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-GL2-3CCD-MiniDV-Camcorder-DELUXE-PKG-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ290196130656QQihZ019QQcategoryZ20330Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Well it sounds like I'll be going with a GL2 - now I must ask - is it pointless to buy such a thing unless I have proper computer capabilities to support it? And if so, what (at least) would I require? I guess what I'm saying is if I ONLY have the camera, is there gonna be much I can do besides film unedited video?

If I understand the question, there is nothing you can do with the footage if you don't have any editing capabilities. But it's not pointless to buy a camera. You clearly have a computer. There are lots of editing software out there for you to use.

I've heard some people say to make sure your computer can support the editing software - because some require massive amounts of memory... is there a specific program anyone would suggest?

I've heard some people say to make sure your computer can support the editing software - because some require massive amounts of memory... is there a specific program anyone would suggest?
I cut four feature length movies on an iMac with 256MB ram. Not exactly a massive amount of memory. But I know PC's are differnet so I'll let others help you there. I know cameras, not editing software.

I use Final Cut Pro to edit on my Mac (Powerbook G4). 1 GB OF RAM. I don't know much about computers either, but my set up seems to work well for me. To edit you will of course need editing software. Again I have somewhat limited experience, so all I can recommend is what I have: (a GL2, Mac, and Final Cut Pro). They've all been reliable and fairly easy to use. I don't think that Final Cut Pro needs tons of memory to use, but I'm not running a hundred different programs either or downloading anything that might eat into my memory and slow things down. All I really use my computer for is storing photos, listening to music, and editing.

shawn, is there stuff of yours I can see that was shot and edited with what you listed?

Depending on your computer, storage (harddrive) space will be your sticking point...luckily, harddrives are cheapish now. 1 full DV tape (1 hr of footage) takes about 10 Gb of storage. If you capture just the clips you need from the tape, you'll be able to fit larger projects on it as you don't have all of the cruft saved on the harddrive.

What kind of computer do you have (windows/mac OS version, processor, ram, harddrive)

well, I have a dell laptop w/windows that is almost maxed out on memory as it is... so I will mosst definately be getting a new one devoted just for film editing.

That being said... I am starting to get very discouraged... its sounding like the bare minimum of what I'll need for what I wish to do will end up costing like 5 thousand - which I dont have... :(

bah...I was editing on a Performa 475 with chopsticks...um...never mind.

what speed is the CPU?

uh - I'm not sure on that - its a dell inspiron E1505 with windows medai edition... if that means anything...

as for cost, I meant total cost of camera, editing program, and computer (assuming the computer is the cheapest of all those). I mean, I would need all those things to really do anything, right? I know theres a lot more I would need - but those three things are pretty essential, wouldnt you say?

as for cost, I meant total cost of camera, editing program, and computer (assuming the computer is the cheapest of all those). I mean, I would need all those things to really do anything, right? I know theres a lot more I would need - but those three things are pretty essential, wouldnt you say?
Welcome to the world of making movies.

And after you spend all your money on all those things you are just beginning
to spend money. Making a movie is damn expensive. If that discourages you,
you're in for some sad, sad days. Wait until you start pricing mic's and lights.

But i know what you mean. It's not cheap to make a movie. Especially if you
need to start from the ground up. So, you could start smaller. Get a cheaper
camera and cheap editing software using the computer you have. Not the easiest
and not the best, but I can tell you for certain that not one of us here started
with the best equipment and the optimum computer.

I know, I know... dont get me wrong - I didnt expect it to be cheap, if I had the money to spend I gladly would... and by the time I muster up that kind of money, the things I was saving for will probably be out of date.

At least I know actors wont be a problem - I lettered in Theater Arts in high school and most of my still good friends did as well... it'll be a long road from now before I even have a use for actors though

uh - I'm not sure on that - its a dell inspiron E1505 with windows medai edition... if that means anything...

as for cost, I meant total cost of camera, editing program, and computer (assuming the computer is the cheapest of all those). I mean, I would need all those things to really do anything, right? I know theres a lot more I would need - but those three things are pretty essential, wouldnt you say?

Since you're looking at the PC world, let me give you a breakdown of what I spent last year just getting geared up to make some DV short films (I used the equipment to produce a couple of 20-30 minute documentaries already for family and friends, but nothing in the public domain):

1) Camera: Canon XL1s - $2400 used from E-Bay, and it came with an excellent Bogen tripod with fluid head, a Sennheiser ME66 microphone with blimp and a few cables (total of about $7500 in original retail value)

2) Camera case: $300 (Pelican)

3) 16x manual lens: ~$500 used from E-Bay ($1600 original retail value)

4) Blank tapes and spare batteries: ~$200

5) Canon MA-200 for XLR inputs: ~$300 used

6) 400GB internal hard drive for editing and a 500GB external drive for extra storage: $200

7) Adobe Production Studio Premium for PC: ~$1700.00

8) I work in the computer industry, so assembling the PC cost me next to nothing relatively speaking through bartering and labor trades, but my entire setup is an Intel Core2 Duo with 2GB RAM, an ATI FireGL V7350 (~$1500 retail value for this alone), DVD burner, Creative XFi sound card, 24" widescreen flat panel, 5.1 surround sound, IEEE 1394 Firewire card for camera interface, and other basic accessories. To build this system would cost over $4000 today. This is overkill for standard definition, but I'm ready to make the leap to high definition and plan to do some 3D rendering on it as well. It's a multi-purpose workhorse. It's running Windows XP Pro.

9) I built my own microphone boom for $26: http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=8863&page=2

10) Construction lights (4x500W), can lights, black wrap (black aluminum foil), white foam core, 3x DIY 6'x6' iron water pipe frames for mounting lights and felt and sound dampening (mattress foam covers), extension cords, dimmers (one 1000W dimmer included), parchment paper for light diffusion, microphone stand (in case I am sans boom operator): ~$500 for everything

11) Video slate with markers, various gels for changing color temperature of the lights, and a decent cine' light meter: ~$400

Grand total investment for 2007 (not including the computer): ~$6526. Add $4000-5000 if you were to match my computer setup, and this takes startup costs over $10,000.00.

Now imagine if I decided to take the plunge into learning and growing using actual film cameras and not DV.

This is not a cheap endeavor.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the filters for the camera: 3 ND filters of varying intensity and a UV filter: ~$200

I updated and augmented my film and writing library with about 10 new books: ~$250. I am always reading something. Learn something new every day.

I still need to make a handheld camera stabilizer, dolly tracks, a jib arm or crane - lots of work to do in 2008. I already wrote one short and am about to start writing another short and a feature. It's time to justify to the wife why I spent all this money last year. :)

Have you considered finding a person who already owns a camera
to be a partner in your project? Maybe someone who shoots
weddings but wants to do some short movies. Maybe a freelancer
who likes your script.

Over the years I've corresponded with filmmakers in Phoenix. There
seems to be a pretty healthy filmmaking community there. The Phoenix
Film Festival is in April - how about volunteering there? You're bound
to meet someone with a camera. Have you thought of contacting
the Phoenix Film Office? Or the Phoenix Film Society?

Wow - an even bigger challenge than I thought...

I never know where to find info on film festivals and such - another reason I'm glad I found this place! :D

Well, here's an idea...


I have a very good credit score... yet the highest limit CC I've ever had was a $3500. Assuming I could get one - would it be a good idea to just have a high-limit CC devoted to this stuff? Or is that a bad idea? Would I just bury myself in debt? This doesnt seem like a hobby that pays for itself exactly... and I'm still in college...

Wow - an even bigger challenge than I thought...

I never know where to find info on film festivals and such - another reason I'm glad I found this place! :D

Well, here's an idea...


I have a very good credit score... yet the highest limit CC I've ever had was a $3500. Assuming I could get one - would it be a good idea to just have a high-limit CC devoted to this stuff? Or is that a bad idea? Would I just bury myself in debt? This doesnt seem like a hobby that pays for itself exactly... and I'm still in college...

Well, I'm a bad candidate to talk about credit. Most of my investment was on credit cards. I wasn't worried because I have enough high limit cards, and they always send me balance transfer incentives where I can keep the interest rates low by moving the balances around.

Unless you can make enough money to offset the interest, your $3500 in equipment won't be $3500 by the time you pay off the debt, more like ~$7000.00 or more depending on how long it takes. Imagine the camera you could buy with the interest money. Best to save and pay cash.

Unless this is a hobby for the time being, or you have a solid business plan, buy with the intent to buy...not to rack up debt in the hopes it will magically pay itself off as you break your way into hollywood.

Oh, no - believe me, I would happily spend whatever I needed to just to do it for fun... but with school and a 7 month old daughter I very much want the "practical" way to do it - if there is one, LOL. I have no delusions of any money I put into it coming back to me besides me paying it off myself. I just want to make sure I dont spend needlessly - since I have a limited knowledge thus far...