Am I getting Screwed?

I

Indie Brad

I have written a short film that I am directing and producing. It's a low budget, $8K short.

I recently brought on another Producer to help pull the logistics of the project together. He wants me to sign a contract with the following conditions:

1. $1000 Producer's Fee
2. Opening Title Credit - Single Title Card "Producer"
3. Co-Ownership Rights with me
4. 50/50 Split of any profits that are made

To me, these seem like steep conditions condiring I wrote the film, have been producing it, and have invested all the money myself.

Do you think this seems like a fair deal? What conditions would be typical of a short film in the $8K budget range?
 
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Those terms do seem a bit steep. 1/8th of the budget for his fee seems a little high, and when mixed with the co-ownership and 50/50 profit split.. I think I'd renegotiate.

But it's your movie, it's your call.. General rule of thumb I go by is this: if it feels like you're getting screwed, you probably are.
 
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Will Vincent said:
if it feels like you're getting screwed, you probably are.
Click to expand...

Good rule of thumb, Will.

In this case, it's not the producer's fee that is the red flag to me, it's the ownership. If he's a producer-for-hire, then why should he get a lone producer credit when you're also a producer. And why should he own half the movie? It's YOUR movie. I'd offer him a low percentage of the profits if he insists, but no ownership unless he puts in money or brings elements of considerable value to the table.

As for the fee, I get hired to work on short films and often get paid a lot more than that to do editing and DP work. My general MO regarding shorts is to pay people if you can but if you can't, then finding people to work for free usually isn't that difficult. If you've offered to pay others, then the producer should also get a fee (although not necessarily what he's asking for). If everyone is working for free, then the producer should also work for free. That's only fair.
 
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If you're only shooting with 8K, I would use that money in front of the camera, you'll need it. Spend it on a DP and/or Sound guy, the rest should go in front of the camera definitely. I agree about the production credits as well...trade him, producers credit for the 50% of the profits if he wants sole producer's credit...it's business, haggle..."don't you want to haggle?" - Monty Python Life of Brian.
 
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OK... this is actually very simple.

You have to ask yourself what this guy is bringing to the table as a producer and whether it's worth the list of demands he's making.

What is it that this guy is going to do, that you can't do yourself, that is worth the money and the credit?

Different people use producers in different ways... and producers come in a wide variety of style.

Personally I'll only bring in a producer to find money and distribution... a producer who can deliver on those is worth whatever investment they ask for. Some producers are great at finding free production resources and production management... but to perfectly honest, although I'm happy to pay for those kinds of skills, I'd never give more than a line producer credit for that contribution. The producers I avoid like the plague, are the "writers, who can't write"... or in other words someone who wants to get involved in the creative process... but has no track record as a writer or script editor.

So, really, figure out what this guy is offering, figure out what that's worth to you... then decide.

However, the mere fact you're asking the question would lead me to believe you FEEL like you're being shafted... and if you do give him what he's asking for you're going to resent it.

One of the mistakes I made early on was thinking credits weren't important... so I was pretty lax in protecting my own interests. My sincere advice is NEVER give a credit where it isn't properly due... because it always leads to post-production resentment... big mistake I ever made was giving my last producer a co-writing credit, when his input didn't warrant more than a script editor's. :(
 
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I wouldn't go for that. If he can't work for free, he better be bringing ALOT of stuff to the project in regards to getting it SOLD... if he's just line producing and pulling together logistics, then he's asking for too much on a low-level budget. I'd try and re-negotiate to something like: No producer's fee, Credit as "co-producer" (with you) or "line producer"... as for ownership, I'd hang on to that if I were you (because if you and the other producer ever have a disagreement, he can screw you with those), and as for the 50/50 split... he's expecting profits from a SHORT film? True, you CAN get money for shorts, but it's often few and far between... so unless he's got a PLAN on how to sell the short, I can't see how he should be entitled to back-end profit... ESPECIALLY with a producer's fee! If you can afford the $1000 fee, give him that and tell him no back end. If you can't afford the fee, then only give him back-end if he's maintaining his producer role into the marketing/sales part of the process.

That's my input, but I'm silly, don't listen to me.
 
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No.. I think you're pretty much right Spat.

Give the guy a fee without any backend (and no ownership rights) or no fee and a smaller backend percentage.. The fee is probably a bit high though too. I would be very surprised if you couldn't find someone able to do what this guy can do that's willing to do it just for the credit. I know things are a bit different in LA, but still.. This guy is asking for way too much, especially coming onto the project fairly late in the game.

Keep full ownership for yourself (which makes total sense anyway, as the exec. producer you DO own the film, since you're PAYING for it)

Maybe grant the opening title credit, maybe. I think Clive made a good point on this one, and doling out producer credits especially when credited with that kind of prominence seems a little much. Seems to me that the whole 'producer' credit thing has gotten out of hand in recent years too, so not contributing to that madness would be good, but that's probably a whole other discussion.

If you agree to a fee, it should probably be a much smaller fee.

As for back-end compensation -- if there is any, which we all know is not extremely likely from a short, but definitely not unheard of -- 50% is mighty steep. That doesn't leave anything to offer any of the rest of the cast/crew unless it comes out of your share, and really it just doesn't make sense for someone with no financial contribution to warrant such a high percentage.
 
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Just to put a more positive spin on this...

In your position, before I made any decision about what I was going to do, I'd do some research.

It just maybe that this guy is a serious producer, who sees potential in you and your work and he's using this short to see if you can deliver the goods.

What I would do is check his IMDB listing and see what else he's done. I'd try and find a friend with a Hollywood Creative Directory and see if he's a known name. Then I'd ask him who else he's worked with and I'd make a few phone calls.

I'd also google "his name + scam" and see if any horror stories popped up... plus a google just on his name and any production company he's been associated with.

After that, I'd sit down with him and say "I really want to work with you, but you're asking for a lot on a film that I'm financing... so, what are you bringing to the party... I'm not saying I won't agree to the deal... I just need to know what I'm getting back from this."

If the guy is good he won't resent the question... especially if the way you ask it is kept light and professional, rather than aggressive.

The way I see it there are two possibilities. One is the guy is chancer who doesn't know what he's doing... because unless it's remarkable there's very little money in shorts, so I don't see what he's got to gain from acquiring half of it. If he's got no IMDB history, that's probably the case...

The other possibility is he's a really astute producer who thinks you've got real talent and he's got a longer term objective in mind... maybe he sees a feature in your short and thinks he can use the leverage of the short to pull in development money for the feature.

Basically, the guy's either very smart or very stupid...

You need to know which... hope this helps
 
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Looking at it from a business perspective:

Do some research and get info on how many short films make money.
My research has shown that they don't.

So what I would do is make the following offer:

Nothing up front - as producers you both want every penny up on
the screen, right?

Single title card.

Co-Ownership of the final picture - not the script.

70/40 split in his favor after recoupment, a 8% financing fee and
12.5% fee for each job. Two producers, a writer, a director.

Once the movie returns $12,640 this producer will see a 70/40
split. That's $640 to you for putting up the money, the asked for
$1,000 for the producer and another $1,000 each - $3,000 - for
the writer, the producer and the director.

Seems unfair? Look at it realistically and in the long term. Short
films don't make money. If yours is the very rare exception you
see $1,920 for your effort, the producer sees his $1,000. After
that the producer who helped you sees a bigger cut, but you can
say that you wrote, produced and directed a short film that
returned a profit. That's worth a LOT when approaching investors
for your next movie. And you see $3,640 first.

If he won't work for free up front, then offer him $500 now and
the other $500 after recoupment of the investment and your 8%
financing fee.
 
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In terms of short film profitability, you definitely have to think long term. My brother's $600 short film was licenses by MTV for a couple thousand dollars. And more likely, the interweb has enabled and will enable revenue possibilities via sites like Revver and Youtube and ad sharing like Google's adsense. And who knows what other opportunities there will in the future.

So the last thing you want to do is unnecessarily saddle your film with another owner that you have to go through before you do anything.
 
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Hmmm as a hard arse producer even I wouldn;t ask for those terms! Yep I'd have serious issue with the co-ownership AND 50/50 profit split AND a fee.

If he believes in the film he'd take one or other. Not all three. That for me is steep.

As someone else said what is he bringing? For my last film I attached major stars, national names, locatiosn, huge events and massive marketing WITH a sales deal also. I feel I added value. Can you say the same about him?
 
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...also remember: You're The Boss

If it is your film, and you came up with the money, you get to decide what happens to it. Do you know what this producer has done? Is this a first project and he is a starving artists as you are or as many have said, does he bring something to the table?

The way I see it, you get to make all the decisions. If he isn't happy with that, you can simply say:
"Thank you for considering my project. I'm sorry to have wasted your time,"

If you have to, make the decision to "go a different way."


-- spinner :cool:
 
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Indie Brad said:
I have written a short film that I am directing and producing. It's a low budget, $8K short. I recently brought on another Producer to help pull the logistics of the project together. He wants me to sign a contract with the following conditions:
Click to expand...

Demanding, aren't they? What are they going to do for you except eat all of your doughnuts? There is no word regarding their performance, i.e., exactly what you get in exchange.

I mean, when a producer knows you only have an 8K budget yet demands an eighth of it plus half ownership of the film when you're the one putting up all the money, they are not looking after your best interests. To me, they sound a little too selfish to be a team player.

There's a producer out there somewhere who will share the risk with you (even contribute funds) if they believe in you and your project. Find that producer because that's a partner, then give them equity in your project. That's how you'll know they actually have a vested interest in the success of your film instead of eating up your funding and your doughnuts. Take the time to find the right producer.

It took me many years to find the right producer but when I finally did, it was well worth the wait. If I want to film in a Boeing 747 or at city hall, she gets it for me - for free. We both work with an equity agreement so we only get paid if we all get paid. They're out there, find one.
 
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Film budgets are to be guarded and protected. Lot's of good advice here for you and plenty of ammunition for this negotiation! Put all the money on the screen. Period. If that is not amenable....perhaps you've got the wrong person. A small fee might be reasonable.
What is this producer bringing to the table for free, for sale, for distribution...etc. Clearly others feel there is adequate people out there to assist you without pillaging your film budgets minimal reserves. Good luck with it. I think you have your answer! Contact me for quality film budgets and schedules for your project. http://www.filmbudget.com

http://www.Jackbinder.net
http://www.greentreesfilms.com

Roll Camera!!
 
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