Okay if a company wanted to self fund a feature film and offered people a chance to 'donate' money (I guess we cant say shares because in the UK you cant do a share issue for this) to make the film happen ,
would you?

1. The film would be an ACTION/MARTIAL ARTS.
2. The Donations would in £5 (around $8.5) with no limitation to how many donations you could make.
3. The idea is 30,000 x £5 donations. Total budget £150k UKP
4. The film has a sales agent attached and signed.
5. The film will be Shot HD.
6. Has a very good international cast & crew attached (credits inc UltraViolet, Da Vinchi Code, Million$, Unleashed, Rush Hour 3 and more).

For the money you would get (at least the following but more the more you donate):

1. A credit on the film and website
2. Discount on film merchanise
3. A general discount with a web retailer like Amazon (possibly even up to the value of £5/$8-9 USD)
4. A Certificate of donation signed by members of the cast & crew
5. Access to speical area of website with exclusive comps and info.
6. If the film doesnt reach it's targets/start production all monies will be paid back with interest accured.
7. A chance to be in the film (run as a comp)
8. Dividen payouts from profits

ALL For £5/around $8-9. Forgetting the legal issues, contracts etc at the moment as this is all hyperthetical at the moment.

So my question is simple... would this be something people would be intersted in ? Would you DONATE a small ammount?

I'm wondering about the legalities of it... £5 still sounds like you're selling 'shares'.

I wish something like this was common (it's probably not, I've never heard of anyone doing this) to where you can set up a seperate bank account, have all 'donations' go to this account and simply fund your film from there.

This way, your 'money trail' is simply your bank statement to keep everything legal.

Does something like this exist? Is this even legal?

If someone buys shares you probably need to request some sort of i.d. number like a SSN here in the States or a Tax ID number or something.

As for whether or not I would contribute it all depends on the person. If the filmmaker/company has successfully completed a film and has made some sort of return on it I'd be much more open to buy some shares. But if they haven't done anything prior I'd be worried it may be a scam.

keep in mind that 30,000 of these at £5 per potentially translates into 30,000 contracts (printing and lawyer costs) + 30,000 of each of the perks in the package that comes with signing. This may leave you no monies with which to make your film. You may need to scale back the kickback on it to dividends, cameos and credits to keep the front-end costs down. I'm sure you can keep this on an investor level (not a lawyer/solicitor) and contract it that way without having to look into the realm of shares and all the extra business legallity that goes with that. It all depends on how you write up the contracts. It may not have been done, but hey...set a precedent and make life easier for the rest of us ;)

Okay it is legal depending on how it is set. The idea is to make this less like INVESTMENT and more like DONATIONS.

As I said the idea isn't set, as of yet, but to answer some of the points:

1. The Incentive Package.
These would cost us nothing. Simply we would team up with retailers to give these discounts in return for publicity. The idea is to present teh best value for money so you get to invest in the film plus a bit more.

2. Legal
A contract will be dran up but a simple blanket contract that will be printed out online and returned to us. One solictor cost (which we have free anyways).

The samps used to return the contract would then be donated to charity (it's a nice way to again seem like we are doing this for more for the sake of doing it than the money invested).

3. We are also looking at donating a % of profit to charity, something like MakePovertyHistory or WWF.

4. Trackrecord.
We have had a film released that has turned a small proft (in countries like USA, Cananda, Croatia and about 10 others).

5. Scam
All investors would get access to online bank statements, budget, script, casting and news. A password protected section of the site.

I have looked into this for years and it appears that it can be done.

One idea my girlfriend and I are tossing around is to host a "fundraising jamborie" and get some wicked Indie bands (with their respected followings) together and rock donations.
If it's as simple as passing around a jug/hat for cash donations, then you don't have to track it. Just have a few concerts, charge a small entry fee to compensate the band/location rental, and then the rest is gravy.
Compensation could be as simple as filming the concerts and putting it on the DVD with a list of people who signed a guestbook or something. Everyone gets a fun night, indie bands broaden thier fan base, and you walk away with seed money to start off with.
Plus, you get some cool behind the scenes footage and stories for the press kit.

Would I donate? If I knew the filmmaker and knew the product was not going to be something I'd be ashamed to have my name associated with... maybe. If I didn't know the filmmaker, definitely not. How would I know that there wouldn't be 'questionable' material in it? I would not want to help fund anything that had graphic nudity or covered a subject matter that I was not comfortable with. If some schmoe I didn't know came knocking at my door asking for money to help fund his/her film, I would most likely assume they were some kind of deadbeat - unless they came with impecable credentials from people I know and respect.

MediaHero...

I understand your POV. The best way I can counter this is to say that once the investment is made you would have full access to the script, budget etc and a 14 day cooling off period. If the material was questionable then you could pull out and get a full refund.

the idea is to make a community film that a lot of people can feel involved with. It also then helps because the film will already have an audiance (each of the 10,000 potential investors would know at least 4 people who could see it etc).

If you provided a great deal of background info upfront on the director, writer, actors, synopsis, etc, with reviews, articles, info on previous films, etc, then you would probably have a better return - which is probably what you plan on doing. Get a 'notable' name to write you a letter you can quote from. If you could get a friendly news reporter to do a story on your edeavor, that would be helpful, too. I would imagine the more work you do upfront, the better return you'll get - more investors. It's an interesting concept when I think more about it, after my first knee jerk reaction. A nice challenge for a crack PR wizard. It makes me think of that guy who was doing that 'trade' thing on ebay?? A gimmick like that might be a fun and attention-getting way to raise funds.

I see websites set up to accept donations like this often and it brings up too many question that can't really be answered.

Even putting all the legal issues aside for the sake of discussion there are too many problems. If 10 or 50 or 100 or even 1,000 people donate and that's it, returning the money could be done in a timely manor. What happens if 10,000 people donate the £5? You've only got £50,000 which isn't enough to make the movie and it would take you months (and a lot of money) to return the donation.

And of course setting a time frame would be a logistical nightmare. Assuming 15,000 people donating. If you set a time frame of 6 months, that's 41 people a day. Think you can really, rally that many people to donate even a small amount of money like £10? Make it a year - do you think you could attract 1,250 people a month for 12 months to reach the 15,000 needed? Assuming that 1 in 10 people contacted or looking at a web site would actually donate, that means you have to reach 12,500 people per month with your pitch. That's about 416 people each day. I wonder if there are that many different people who are interested enough in donating money to a movie maker they've never heard of to even look at a web site or advertisement.

Then there's the credit on the film. Say you get 15,000 people to donate. At even 3 seconds (which is a very fast crawl) 15,000 names would take 12 hours. I suppose you could fit 100 names on one credit card and flash that for 10 seconds - 16 minutes. It seem having a credit on the final film wouldn't be much of an incentive. And a part in the movie? Cool and kind of fun if 10 or 20 people want to walk across the back ground - what if 500 people took you up on that?

I wouldn't be the first to donate, but if you get 14,995 people to donate at least £10, I'll jump in with my £10 and bring on 4 more....

I see websites set up to accept donations like this often and it brings up too many question that can't really be answered.

I wouldn't be the first to donate, but if you get 14,995 people to donate at least £10, I'll jump in with my £10 and bring on 4 more....


Rik - Point by VERY long point :-)

1. It would be written into the deal that if we didnt raise the money we required an option would exisit to make the film on the money we had after a set ammount of time. If you didn't agree with the decision when taken you could take your money back. I feel most people if presented with the plan would say 'hell why not'.

2. Getting The People...
Indie Talk, Talent Circle, Shooting People, Mandy.com, UKScreen. Between them probably have around 250,000 members at LEAST and more people that view.
Empire, SFX, Total Film, Impact & Vengeance have around 250,000 subscribers/readers
Rumour Machine, Kungfucinema.com, Film Asylum get over 75,000 unique hits per month.

And this is a start. Thats almost 600,000 people as a target audiance to start with, of which we need 30,000 donations (some people may give more than £5 so say we need 20,000). Around 5%. Which is still pretty high but this is off a small section of outlets we can reach.

3. Credits
You have a point on teh credits bit. So maybe I'll say you'll get a credit on the DVD and anyone donating over a set amount will get credits on the film. That way we dont have to worry about the timings.

4. Appearing In The film
This would be done as a comp. So we would have say 10 roles to fill and we'd take a random pick of people to fill those roles. Thus making sure each one gets some screen time.

Rik - Will take you up on that!

Seriously though for what amounts to a pack of cigs 'you' (meaning everyone) get a chance to actually be appart of a feature film, with a SUPERB cast and crew, that stands a good chance of getting a worldwide DVD and (in some countries) theatrical release...

Itsn't it worth the 'risk' (not that there is a risk).

4. Appearing In The film
This would be done as a comp. So we would have say 10 roles to fill and we'd take a random pick of people to fill those roles. Thus making sure each one gets some screen time.

mml -
I'm playing devil's advocate, too, along with directorik...

What if you randomly pick folks from China, Australia, Brazil, UK, .... to appear in your film? Be sure to write in a clause that states transportation to the film set is on them ;)

Indeed!!!

Any other suggestions/potential problems? Would this be of interest to ANYONE here!! Ha!

Mr-Modern-Life,

I think you will have more than a hard time doing this. It has been hard to get more than a couple of Indie Filammkers here (who need to keep their own money for their own hard times). How the heck are you going to attract 15,000 people who aren't related to your cause to spend any money on you?

Yiou have created a poorly conceived model that any savy business person will ignore as junk mail.
Why should they help you, someone they do not know or have any tie-in with? Especially if they have no return on investment!

I think you are wasting your time trying to create a white elephant that will tie you down for months, if not years, instead of going about looking for real investors with a real purpose to invest (not give) enough money to shoot your film. Your first post shows a very sketchy "idea" and not a real business plan. Your plan to make donations to a "possible" non-profit organization has not been developedother than another sketchy idea.

You amatuerism is showing big time on this proposal. Your "track record" of one film made that made "some" profit isn't really good enough.

I know I am real tough on you here, but this kind of "idea" (can't call it a real business plan) shows potential investors that Indies aren't professional enough to deserve to approach them. This kind of half-thought through approach hurts the rest of us in the business world.

Some guy tried to sell "Associate Producer" titles on ebay in order to fund his movie. He finally got shut down for trying to sell employment . These new Associates and cast members (actors could "buy" a rolefor specific amounts) didn't have to have any experiences at all...only cash.

This truly smacks of a scam, even iif your intentions are honest. Dump the idea, go back to networking like the rest of us and sell a couple of good scripts in order to fund one film.

Sorry I was hard on you, but I felt it needed to be said. I am NOT encouraging you to quit, other than this idea. Join the rest of us in finding legit investors who get a real ROI with a reasonable risk.

WC

Writeum...

1. They will have a return on investment we are just looking at a way to word it. After the money is recouped you would get your stake + a %.

2. I have to say that this is a bit of a hostile answer. This model has worked (nick Love who directed Football factory just funded a feature film like this but with less on offer).

Far from Amatuer this is a proffesional proposal with a film that has sales attached, a named cast (inclduing a major bankable US genre star and several leading UK actors), a named crew etc.

Why does this hurt everyone else? When was the last time you managed to raise finance through offcial channels? The UK has very few and they are locked off to most types of film.

This is a different approach which I'm not sure deserves to be slammed. As for my track record, an indie film that cost $10k and has made way over that in sales and been released in over 14 countries with another 5 in the pipeline, won awards, recorded best sellar DVD sales status and critically aclaimed to boot... well that is quite an achievment. More than most people who post here have achieved (and that's not a dig but a fact).

Far from amatuer, this proposal offers an inovative way for people to get involved in film. What you have here is the bones of the idea... when it's launched it will be backed up by a web site, marketing materials, promotion, tie in's with major companies (such as HMV who we are currently in talks with), a full business plan, contracts and access to all financial records and spending. The film itself is backed by JVC, British Airways and Motorola.

Does this sound like a amatuer idea, or a scam or con? Sounding out the proposal here was so that I could get a general feel and tweak the idea.

If there was money out there to do this any other way we would. But there isnt so you need to think out of teh box. the fact this idea has worked shows it's potential and we have a far better package than those guys did.

Writum makes a good point, Modern. There are a lot of scams out there, and I've seen a few film sites asking for donations. But there's no real incentive to donate because there's nothing substantial in return. Also, I think it's hard to get donations through a computer- it's so detached and anonymous on the web.
I'd recommend tweaking the idea so that the website points to a series of events which the filmmakers host. If you can get at least the local people out to these events, you can pitch to them in person, and they'll be a bit more obliged to scrape up the cash. Then, maybe release a video of the "fundraising party" on the website to inspire the web community to buck up and join the progress.

You'd have to be completely transparant, and probably have to start "the funding blog" or something that can be updated daily. It's going to be a hard path man- but I feel your pain. I'm going to be selling cookies, lemonade, car washes, etc, to raise enough money to rent a concert hall and a couple bands to have something along the lines of this. Unconventional funding is really cool- it's nice outside the box.

Spatula... the problem with events is that they cost money. And the idea is not to spend to make. We are also working on magzine coverage also.

There will be a contract that will be in place for everyone to sign and a daily (ish) blog etc. It will be open book (bank statements, spending, budget list, business plan etc etc etc)

What we are trying to do is reinvent the wheel and the net is the best place...

If I'm honest, I kinda hoped for a bit more support here. If anyone should be getting behind revloutionary ideas its other filmmakers.

unsupportive and critical are two different things...If you want a business venture to succeed, you need to be prepared for dealing with its failings. I've not yet read one post that says "What are you thinking, don't do it." They've all been bringing up possible caveats and perception gaffes.

Being honestly critical of yourself and your business is one of the ways to flesh out all the possible problems in a company or venture before they turn into a financial or legal nightmare.

I've specifically read go for it in many of these posts - after soundings of here is what I see that could prevent you from succeeding. To ignore these things is dooming your business to failure.

DISCLAIMER: Do NOT act upon my ideas... I'm just venturing guesses here.

What about opening a new bank account and Paypal account and linking the two. Donations can be made through Paypal, costing very little up front.

Is this what you're trying to accomplish?

Knighly - yeah sorry what I meant was I expected the idea to fly better with people simply for the fact we are all (mostly) in the same boat. i guess I just bumed at being called amatuer earlier!

Loud - Kinda. We have that in place but was also thinking of adding donate so people can also donate generally without anything else.

Phil,

The problem I see with this idea is that you are trying to appease two distinctly different groups of people without fully considering the needs of both.

Let's start with "investors." These are the people in the business of investing money to make a ROI. These people are very likely uninterested in your offerings of credits, cameo appearances, and the like. Their bottom line is the ROI. At this point, your ROI model is too under-developed to gain serious attention. For example, let's say I have $1000 to invest. I can safely put that money in some type of low-to-moderate risk investment fund and expect an average of 5% annual ROI. With a monthly interest compound, after two years I should have earned about $105 with almost no risk. So, let's apply this to your proposal--assuming it takes you 6 months to earn your investment money (which to me seems optimistic), another 3 months of pre-production, another 6 - 9 months of shooting and post-production, and 6 months to secure a distribution deal -- we are already at almost two years on the project and I am not yet close to earning any ROI on your project. PLUS, there are the following risk factors:

You may not earn enough money to start the project
I do not know you well enough (and your reputation is not proven for investment ROI) to trust whole-heartedly that you will return the money
Even if you do complete the picture, it is not guaranteed to make money
If the finished picture does end up making money, it may be years before the profit from the movie is enough to pay back every investors' ROI.

Therefore, as an investor, you would have to offer me something to compensate me for all of these risks...and I'm not talking about movie credits. High risk investment portfolio funds, if managed properly, can earn 20+% ROI. BUT, even those are managed by trained investment professionals, so even THOSE offer a lower risk than your project. How can you top that? Can you offer a 30% ROI? That might attract some investors...maybe. But can you afford that?

Well, you say that your first movie cost only 10,000 and has already has already made "some" money. If you want to attract high-risk investors, you will need to offer more specifics about how much you have actually made on your project. It is not important to offer that information here, but you need to be prepared to give that answer if someone is holding a $5000 check. Next question...has your first movie earned enough to pay back all of the investment capital PLUS a 30% ROI? If not, I'd be safer investing in a high-risk portfolio managed by Merril Lynch.

(to be continued...)

Now let's think about the "artists." These are the people who might be willing to invest in your just for the sake of the art, helping out the small guy, "being a part of a sucessful movie project," etc. Doubtful that they would be willing to part with $1000+ for your project. $10? ...maybe. To them, who cares about ROI? Hypothetically, say I give you $10. After 3 years, what are you going to do? Mail me a check for $11? Big deal. Mail me a check for $13? Still, who cares. I'd rather dump that $10 into my own projects and have with it. Have you looked into your administrative costs for issuing such a massive re-payment? How much will the postage cost you? Will your bank charge you for issuing (and then processing) 30,000 checks? How much per check?

In summary, I applaud that you are trying to think "outside the box" for raising capital, it just seems like this idea needs to be better thought out. Research all of your expenses before making such an offer. And then, make sure you are able to offer something that is genuinely feasible for you and attractive to investors at the same time.

Here is a hypothetical suggestion (and please forgive me--I am not familiar with UK/Euro currency and pricing, so I will set up this example in US dollars):

Offer a tiered investment system.

minimum investment is $40. In return for my investment, I will receive a DVD copy of the movie when released. Also, my name will be added to a special list of donors added to the Bonus Features section of the DVD. (As I see it, if you get 5000 investments at this level, you could get a decent price on the bulk production of the DVD -- say around $4-$5, plus another $2-$3 for cheap mail shipping -- that leaves you with at least $30 per investment to put into your feature project.) No other ROI is offered at this level, but HEY, you do get something for your money...the DVD. And its already paid for.

Offer higher investment levels that DO qualify for an actual ROI, but make sure you prepare an ROI projection that will allow you to pay everyone back.


(edit--adding disclaimer: Of course, you should consult with an attorney before making any offers such as this, in case there are legal liability rammifications of which I am not aware.)

Phil asked me:

" When was the last time you managed to raise finance through offcial channels?" Answer: Right now, as a matter of fact. I presented a Treatment for a pre-approved synopsis for a low budget $850K feature to be shot here in N. Texas. The investors are a "hedge fund" for an $11M, 12 picture deal with a Dallas based production company. If the deal goes through, and my Treatment gets the thumbs up, I will write the script for a Greenlight this fall. The investors are familiar with indie films and are "hedging" their bets by investing in more than one film so they can get a better return out of 12 films than just one, in case one or more fail, the odds are in your favor if you follow a predetermined business plan and stick to it.

You need specifics when it comes to a ROI, not just "a %". If an investor invests $300K on your film and risks the entire $300K, he will expect a 50% share of the profits after he has recouped his $300K. Any deferred pay taken out of the profits after the initial investment has been repaid will come out of your 50% of the profits. If you have a distribution deal, you will be lucky to get 35% of the box office returns when the distributor takes out all his monies, inlcuding P&A (which comes off the top of the first box office receipts). Those costs are deducted first before any funds come back to you.

This is not a hostile answer. It is merely stating that I don't buy your "bones of an idea." Again, go back to basics. You have given me all the good things for you and your film, but if I was the investor here, I'd want you to tell me what I can gain out of my investment. If I have to share the returns with 1,500 more people, I will get lost in the transaction. If it is your intent the lessen the degree of risk for a single investor to invest $100, you have done the opposite: You have lessened the degree of ROI as well and watered down the returns. Your model simply doesn't hold water.

If you are "thinking outside the box", do it with your script or with your film, not your investment model. If you want to attract monies from investors, give them the reasons why it is good for them. Don't hit them with trying to lessen the risks to a point where you only can raise $500 and you need $150K.

In business we always ask a question, "Is this the hill you want to die on?" That means, are you willing to put all your cards on the table with this idea, knowing full well that if it fails, it's the end? You asked for opinions, not just blessings. You got my opinion and no blessing. Only a big red flag of caution and a suggestion to re-think the entire approach.

This is the "business" end of show business.

In any event, good luck.

The "amateur" remark was in reference to the business plan, or lack of at this time, not your ability to produce a film. Your "bones of an idea" would need to be run past an investment attorney, whowould be concerned of it's non-professional approach to possible investors. You are going to have to show us your "tough skin" if you propose such a limited idea for a business plan. Don't get bent out of shape when the word amatuer is used to describe the business approach. It was never used in the context of filmmaking.
WC

Keep in mind that at this point, the project changes focus from a movie that needs to get put on tape and edited to a commodity that is *required* to make money by your investors.

This is the reason specifically that most hollywood movies are format movies with mass appeal and very little in the way of new ideas!

This is straight business and is risky. but you'r not risking your £££, you're risking other's £££. If it doesn't sell to the expectations you've setup at the fore-front, you personally...or your production company...is liable for paying back the investors based on the contract you signed with them. This risk is the reason so many indie films are self funded by the producer/director, the risks are high.

If these are risks you can afford/are willing to take...take the caveats put forth here and adjust for them, then start getting £££ from investors/excited public and make your movie that way. When you raise your funds this way and it succeeds, relay that info here along with what worked and what didn't so others can benefit from your experience. Noone else has funded this way before...and while you may hear "don't do it" or "you're an amatuer", the subtext to me reads; "We don't want to see you fail, so stick to a lower risk - established means of fundraising".

Fact is, until you make a paycheck from these endeavors, you are an amatuer...I'm an amatuer and damn proud of it. I didn't go to film school and didn't work my way up from the bottom of the studio system. I made a film as an amatuer without a clue what I was doing and I started at the top. That was my film school, that was my mail room. Wear the amatuer moniker proudly...it pisses off the pros ;)

Throwing ideas out for critique is good, it can only help you succeed, especially if sailing uncharted financial waters. How much more do you know from this thread than when you first posted about the idea...how many things were raised for you ponder about it that you hadn't before starting this thread?

We have missed and hit things from the original posting:

ALL For £5/around $8-9. Forgetting the legal issues, contracts etc at the moment as this is all hyperthetical at the moment.

So my question is simple... would this be something people would be intersted in ? Would you DONATE a small ammount?

We all jumped immediately to the legal/contractual/financial ramifications of the problem exactly as you had asked us not to (myself included). And the answer to the question posed seems to be no...although for $10, I might just throw in for the kick of it, it depends on what bills I have looming over me at the time.

The film comission near me sold roles in a film. I didn't participate in it at all, at first it was being headlined as a advertisement for the area but it was swiched to a scholorship program. http://www.filmmonterey.org/news_mry_film_prj.html

jhisa,

I went to the website. I am shocked that a "FIlm commission" would do something so stupid. I actually used that term several times in my email to them. Selling a casting role to someone whom you have no clue as to whether or not they can act themselves out a wet paper bag. Fortunatlely that doosm their project to, at best mediocrity, and at worst, to embarrassing the Monterrey Film Commission. One can only hope that the entire staffthat signed on to such crap will be fired. I'd love it of someone from the local county's DA's office filed charges against them for charging for employment (which has been defined in the state of CA as charging for acting roles in films and television).

Not all of us jumped to the legal issues. I didn't. I think this is an interesting concept.

Phil - Again, just playing devils advocate: So you can't offer a credit in the film or offer a part in the movie. I'm assuming #4: the Certificate of donation signed by the cast and crew, won't be a actual signatures. I mean are your cast and crew actually going to sit down and sign 15,000 to 25,000 Certificates?

So 3 of your 6 offers won't really happen. True, 10 people or .05% of the investors will be in the movie (IF they live close enough and are willing to pay for transportation, etc.), all will get a copy of cast and crew signatures and a special section of the DVD where the credit will appear, but is that really an incentive to invest? So we can get a discount on the finished movie?
[quote] Seriously though for what amounts to a pack of cigs 'you' (meaning everyone) get a chance to actually be appart of a feature film, with a SUPERB cast and crew, that stands a good chance of getting a worldwide DVD and (in some countries) theatrical release...[quote]
Seriously, investing £5 or £10 doesn't really make one part of your film. Being one of 20,000 investors doesn't even guarantee one can get a part in the movie. You're going to choose only 10.

I can see how it's exciting for you - but your sales pitch doesn't make it seem very exciting to be 1 of 20,000. As an investor of 2 shares I get nothing, really. I don't get to hang out on the set, I don't get my name in the credits, I'm not involved in anyway.

And the return? A 20,000th share of even £1,000,000 is £50. I know. You're thinking, "That's a profit of £40. £40 more than you had before you got involved in this great movie." But we all know the reality of this business. How long before your movie sees a net profit of £1,000,000? Could be years.

How many units of "Left for Dead" have been sold? Is it the neighborhood of 20,000? I ask because (as you point out) you will need to attract at least that many people to invest. If you couldn't sell 20,000 units of a finished movie, I wonder how difficult it will be to attract 20,000 investors.

WOW! I went away for an hour and look at everything I have to respond to! As I stated in my first post and as Knightly restated this is a hypothetical at the moment and that no concrete plans have been made. The idea was to sound it out here and see what people thought.

Now John@Bophe whilst you make good comments on investment, I think a lot of people are missing the points here.

The idea is not to market this as an investment. Legally that is very tough. It’s to be marketed as a ‘donation’ of which you will get a certain few things back.

The other point is that whilst you guys are part of the target audience, you are only a very small part. The key audience here are people who aren’t making films, who aren’t in the business but see the glamour in being part of a feature film project that they will see on the shelves in HMV or Blockbuster.

This is who the main target audience will be. Sure I want as many people as possible but I don’t want to solely target film maker types as has been proven here they can often be far too prickly and (on the occasion) damming of any idea they didn’t think of or may be competitive to what they are working on.

To answer a few direct points:

Writeum:

My point was that you came in a bit strong for what was needed. Whilst you may have developed a treatment and seen it green light, at the same point I too took a film that had no investment, got money on board using unconventional methods, produced it, took it to Cannes, sold it, got awards and seen it make a return. I’m not crossing swords here but I feel I have a good grasp of the UK Indie scene, of sales & of distribution.

The reason the business plan was vague was that as I have pointed out above it’s the bare bones of an idea that isn’t backed up by anything you can look at. When all this goes live feel free to tell me it sucks or it’s shite. But at least see the whole first…

RIK:

1. To keep costs down the certificate would have to be a web based cert that you download. We had an idea of ‘BUY A CELL OF FILM’ working out that in a 85 min film there would be around 122,400 frames of film but the practicality of printing out each one etc was too much.

2. Okay thinking on this a new version of the offer would be this.
Bronze: £5 -£50 Silver: £51-£250
Gold: £251-£1000 Platinum: £1000+

With different levels of reward and credit for each role. For example if we got 25 people donating a £1000 they would all get exec producer credits but will get back to you later with the exact details of each idea.

The basic premise is to make each level of investment worthwhile. The package we have for the film really is second to none, with a great script and a superb cast. We have a track record of selling films and turning a profit (Rik – as far as I know the US release sold around that so far but haven’t had the latest sales figs) and getting paid for it.

What I want to to make this model work FOR ALL OF US. Set up a site that can be used for different film projects and then use than concept to help others. Bigger plans are at foot…

Okay so here's the idea. Donate into one of the following areas and get whats listed. The gold & silver are a bit weak so any suggestions...

Bronze: £5 - £50

1. Discount voucher for DVD purchase of the film
2. Certificate Of Donation, signed by cast & crew
3. Credit On The DVD of the film & Website
4. Online retailer discounts (tbc)
5. Access of Special section of website with comps & news
6. Discount on Film Merchandise.
7. Returned donation when film hits profit.
8. Free Film! DVD version of cult action film ‘Pure Vengeance’ (downloadable from the website).


Silver: £51-£500

As above plus:

1. Chance to appear as an extra in the film (1 in 30 chance)
2. Chance to win an all expenses paid visit to the set and appear as a speaking role in the film
3. Name In a full page advert in a international film magazine.


Gold: £501-£1000

As above plus:

1. Credit On The Film (End Credits)
2. Opportunity To Visit the film set
3. Returned donation when film hits profit + % return on donation.


Platinum: £1001+

As above plus:

1. Personalized signed cast & crew Picture
2. Invite to Cast & Crew showing Of The Film
3. Returned donation when film hits profit + % return on donation.


Platinum +: £5000+

As Above plus:

1. Executive Producer Credit On Film
2. Guaranteed appearance in the film
3. Signed copy of the final DVD of the film
4. Returned donation when film hits profit + % return on donation.
5. Interviewed on the behind the scenes documentary to go on DVD
6. Crew T-Shirt, signed by cast & crew.

Hehe.. that category deal reminds me of a PBS telethon...


"And for only $25, you will receive this handsome PBS tote bag."

Phil,

Good luck. I've given you all the opinion I have or you really want to hear. The rest of you will have the ball from here. I hope this has a good conclusion.

I'm outta here.

WC

Hey Writeum your feedback is always appricated... just not always welcome !!! HA!

Hi Phil

I don't see this working simply because the bottom line is that you are trying to find 15,000 people willing to give you $10.

It'll never work, unless you can offer them something right now that is worth the $10.

I also think you're going in the wrong direction with your attempts to fund this -- it'll be easier to track down one private investor who can stump up the whole amount than trying to tie down 15,000 suckers.

If I was producing your film I'd be looking for a UK name actor who had a bundle of cash and was looking for an opportunity to make a break into Hollywood action movies. I'd pitch the script to him and ask him to come on board as co-producer. I'd pitch the film as a show reel opportunity.

£150,000 isn't a lot of money and if the script is good enough and you've got a good show reel to show him, he might even stump up the budget himself. If he couldn't, his name and contacts should be enough to bring on board the investment.

The mistake you're making at the moment is not believing in either yourself or your project -- there is money out there for productions, you're just not talking to the right people.

Clive, believe me when I say that despite one of teh best cast and crews to ever work on a UK indie action movie, experienced sales agent and more we have had shit all luck with private inmvestors. Everytime you get somewhere you end up loosing something. Think about a house of cards... that's what it's been like, everytime we get the cards stacked up one falls from teh bottom.

With 15,000 investors/donators if we loose 1 or 2 then the whole project doesnt fall appart. With 1 or 2 or 3 it does. The UK funding sources are gash and this is one film I can't fund myself.

Whilst you say £150k isnt much it's far too little for any of the offical funding routes and too much for the local funding agancies.

Clive - I have belief TRUST me but the money is not there in the UK and especially not for action lead films. That's why so many action films are being done on card so to speak.

The problem is too many people are approaching funding teh same way and no one is trying to break the mould. This can work, and has (Nick Love did it for his latest film). I guess I just need to work out the best way of incentifiying people.

I dunno Modern- when I looked at the options, the only one I wanted was the 5000+ level... but I don't have $5000 dollars. The lower levels seem like chicken scrap in comparison, and the mob mentality will come into place with people saying "I don't feel important enough to invest in this".
It's an interesting idea, but I don't think you have a hook that makes them want to invest. Give them something tangible and it'll be a better deal.
Also- getting 15,000 people to invest small amounts of money in a short amount of time is insane. Please go for it and make it work so everybody here will be like "Holy crap, it was crazy, and he pulled it off. What a guy."

Clive - I have belief TRUST me but the money is not there in the UK

My ex-business partner just started production on a £3M UK action movie, all financed with money from new UK investors. So I don't need to trust your information... I know that you're wrong about this.

Whilst you say £150k isn’t much it's far too little for any of the official funding routes and too much for the local funding agancies.

Then either up your budget, or slash it.

Or if you really want to get this film made and you've got a half decent script offer the lead role to Bob Hoskins, who loves to work with indies and is an investment magnet. Or find a production company with a production budget who have a hole in their slate and offer them a co-production. Or bring in a more experienced producer with a track record of bringing in investment. Or switch your attention to distribution companies and pre-sell the movie and then use the pre-sales to get funding from one of the four major film banks in Soho. Or, put this script into turnaround and move up a script that you can afford to self finance or that falls within funding budget ranges. Or, pull together a slate of scripts, take the slate to a investment advisor who deals with film funding as a tax right off and offer the slate up via their company. Or, place an advert in Private Eye offering a major role in a movie for just £150,000. Or, pitch the concept as a series to a UK TV company and offer the movie as a pilot.

I've now given you eight different ways to resolve the situation -- that's without going back to the budget and slashing it -- so let's call it nine. The problem is that with every single one of them you're going to have to sit in front of people in the industry and pitch.

Clive - the issue is it has been pitched, the money has been in place and it has fallen through. The money we need is what we need for what we can do. I'm glad your collegue has found the budget. We have not. Some projects get money some do not. And I guess on how you describe action.

I had a script in development at Miramax a few years ago and ended up pulling it because they wanted to change it too far from what the concept was. That is what we are trying to avoid here.

What I want to do is break the rather dull mould we are forced to use and try something new. It has worked, has been proven and can work again. The options you give whilst good for some projects are not for this one. The TV option could never work due to the concept of the film, the pre-sales is fair enough but a hard game these days (most companies wont even pay for completed films and you be looking at a min of a year to get even close to what we need), the film to make a film well we are doing that but that again is months off finishing and the main role well that can work but again its the money to do that.

Okay so you guys aren't fans of this idea, i guess it goes that way sometimes but it does suprise me.

Either way this is the way we are going, so I guess in six months we'll know who was right.

Horses,

Water,

Drink etc.

Thanks for reminding me why I won't work with UK producers anymore.

It's fun to see this evolving. Now you are closer to a fairly standard model - an investment group. The different levels might work. You aren't promising anything to 15 to 20 thousand people.

Even so, as a producer I see this as a logistical nightmare - 2,000 to 5,000 investors. Just as an example:

5 Platinmum Plus (£5,000) - £25,000
20 Platinmum (£2,500) - £50,000
30 Gold (£750) £22,500
50 Silver (£100) £5,000
95 people for a total of £102,500
You will still need 1,900 people at £25 or 4,750 people at £10 to meet the budget.

How much of the £150,000 is going into managing a group of investors that large? It seems like a big, full time job managing all these donations and all the perks. It's difficult keeping a small investment group happy - say 30 people investing £5,000 - I can't imagine keeping in contact with 2,000 to 5,000 people who all feel they now are part of this movie. Even if only 5% want to be kept informed, someone has to keep 100 to 250 people happy. It's hard to tell someone who is a part of the movie to stop calling, or to only communicate via e-mail without upsetting them

As an "investor" I just don't see any real advantage to being part of this. The £1,000 to £5,000 level is a serious investment. Few people checking indie film sites and messageboards are willing to go that high. I wonder if that level of investor is really interested in signed Certificates and T-Shirts or having an appearance in the film?

The £100 to £500 level is even more troublesome - that's a serious amount of money for your typical non-investor looking to be part of a movie. How many movie makers are willing to donate that kind of money for someone else's project? How many movie buyers are willing to donate that much to be listed on the DVD?

And in the "pack of cigs's" level, people aren't getting much. Can you make 2,000 to 4,000 people really feel a part of the movie?

I kind of see how attracting 30,000 donations at £5 would be an interesting marketing hook but I don't see how that helps all of us or even how it would make the "investor" feel part of the film.

I hope you keep us informed during the next six months.

Horses,

Water,

Drink etc.

Thanks for reminding me why I won't work with UK producers anymore.

Not at all Clive and I'm stunned you take that opinion. I know what you are saying and I appricate the advice. The fact I dont agree shouldnt make me less of a producer/person.

I have been in the Uk industry for a while now and its getting tighter and tighter. I want, with the contacts I have and the outlets I know, to try something different, to break to mould, to think outside of the box.

If it fails then so be it but if it desnt, just think about what it could lead to.

Phil it's not about whether you agree with me or not -- it's about the fact that you asked for feedback on your idea -- you got a negative response to your proposal across the board -- and then instead of thinking "Maybe I need to rethink this" you go "Well, I'm going to do it anyway, because I'm sure I'm right."

Every UK producer I've ever met is exactly the same -- they're all incapable of admitting that they're wrong and as a consequence they make the same business errors over and over and over again.

It gets tedious after you've seen exactly the same thing played out three or four times.

The reason that UK producers are like this is that they are obsessed with control -- they'd rather keep a project small than loose control. So when things go wrong with funding, they always look for solutions that are their best shot at retaining control, rather than looking at what the best business options are. This is fine, but the people who end up paying for their need to retain control are the people who work for them.

The whole UK film industry is consistently screwed by guys who have a pathological need to keep things small.

I took me ten years to realize that it's waste of time working with people like that and also the reason I've refused three options on my screenplays from UK producer already this year.

It's fun to see this evolving. Now you are closer to a fairly standard model - an investment group. The different levels might work. You aren't promising anything to 15 to 20 thousand people.

Even so, as a producer I see this as a logistical nightmare - 2,000 to 5,000 investors. Just as an example:

5 Platinmum Plus (£5,000) - £25,000
20 Platinmum (£2,500) - £50,000
30 Gold (£750) £22,500
50 Silver (£100) £5,000
95 people for a total of £102,500
You will still need 1,900 people at £25 or 4,750 people at £10 to meet the budget.

How much of the £150,000 is going into managing a group of investors that large? It seems like a big, full time job managing all these donations and all the perks. It's difficult keeping a small investment group happy - say 30 people investing £5,000 - I can't imagine keeping in contact with 2,000 to 5,000 people who all feel they now are part of this movie. Even if only 5% want to be kept informed, someone has to keep 100 to 250 people happy. It's hard to tell someone who is a part of the movie to stop calling, or to only communicate via e-mail without upsetting them

As an "investor" I just don't see any real advantage to being part of this. The £1,000 to £5,000 level is a serious investment. Few people checking indie film sites and messageboards are willing to go that high. I wonder if that level of investor is really interested in signed Certificates and T-Shirts or having an appearance in the film?

The £100 to £500 level is even more troublesome - that's a serious amount of money for your typical non-investor looking to be part of a movie. How many movie makers are willing to donate that kind of money for someone else's project? How many movie buyers are willing to donate that much to be listed on the DVD?

And in the "pack of cigs's" level, people aren't getting much. Can you make 2,000 to 4,000 people really feel a part of the movie?

I kind of see how attracting 30,000 donations at £5 would be an interesting marketing hook but I don't see how that helps all of us or even how it would make the "investor" feel part of the film.

I hope you keep us informed during the next six months.

Rik - the idea is to take this beyond the film people, who are always less responsive & prickly when having to deal with the concept of other films that aren't theres, and open this across across the web and the UK to a bigger audiance, to people who still think that being part of a film is special. Who think that £5 is a small ammount and worth the chance. And there are several thousand of them out there! (well I'm hoping at least 30,000!!!)

If posting on this board has tought me one thing is that you guys are the wrong audiance. EVERYONE else (over 500 people) I ahve directly chatted or emailed this idea to, inclduing people in the industry, think it's an inovtaive idea that could work. Could.

As for the admin. Yep it's going to be a bitch but that's whay I employ PA's!!! Well my partner. And by employ I mean cook dinner. Occacionaly. Ha! But seriously most of it will be automatic and require min extra work (especially on the lower amounts).

And natch will keep you updated!

Phil it's not about whether you agree with me or not -- it's about the fact that you asked for feedback on your idea -- you got a negative response to your proposal across the board -- and then instead of thinking "Maybe I need to rethink this" you go "Well, I'm going to do it anyway, because I'm sure I'm right."

Every UK producer I've ever met is exactly the same -- they're all incapable of admitting that they're wrong and as a consequence they make the same business errors over and over and over again.

It gets tedious after you've seen exactly the same thing played out three or four times.

The reason that UK producers are like this is that they are obsessed with control -- they'd rather keep a project small than loose control. So when things go wrong with funding, they always look for solutions that are their best shot at retaining control, rather than looking at what the best business options are. This is fine, but the people who end up paying for their need to retain control are the people who work for them.

The whole UK film industry is consistently screwed by guys who have a pathological need to keep things small.

I took me ten years to realize that it's waste of time working with people like that and also the reason I've refused three options on my screenplays from UK producer already this year.

Beileve it or not I can admit I'm wrong. And often do... but just because a bunch of film makers don't like the idea, doesnt maen it cant work if marketed right and to thr right audiance. I have chatted to about 500 people directly on this and the non film makers love the idea, menaing that at least in theory I am £2500 towards the goal ammount. I have been targeting the idea to different groups.

I knew that the response here would be tepid because, for the most part, film makers are a more hostile crowd and especially here (no offense guys).

As for errors... Clive I spent 2 years producing a film with no money so I have learnt from my mistakes. I have spent 5 years working with studios on ideas, projects and productions to see them ammount to nothing. Trust me I have learnt from my mistakes.

You make like the way or working that you do. Fine. I'd rather stay independent and make the movies I want to make, break the mould and try different ideas.

But you say about changing the idea, by the same token how many scripts have been tunred down by studios left right and centre and the writer keeps pushing them until finally they are bought up (True Romance is one example of this and there are many more). Just because the majority disagree doesn't make you wrong Clive.

Okay I take your opinion and views but at the same token I spent 5 years getting screwed by studios and ptroducers who wanted to go big, BIGGER, BIGGEST! The reason we do what we do is because our ultimate aim is to foster an independent Roger Corman style studio in the UK, a business that makes it's own money and funds it own films.

It's not about control it's about ensuring the best return for your money and investment. There are reasons that all but one of the films directly funded by the UK lottery fund have not turned a profit. That most British films over the past 10 years have not made hardly a dime back (and I'm not talking the Universal funded Notting Hill type films).

And it's simply because they are budgeted wrong, target the wrong audiance and are films that just dont make money. The Uk need s Corman style genre production house. It's genre films that cost so little and make so much that help studios fund the bigger films. You'd be suprised how much a Segal film sells for... and that's what i want to achieve here.

So rather than knocking

There are reasons that all but one of the films directly funded by the UK lottery fund have not turned a profit. That most British films over the past 10 years have not made hardly a dime back (and I'm not talking the Universal funded Notting Hill type films).

And it's simply because they are budgeted wrong, target the wrong audiance and are films that just dont make money

I agree UK producers don't know how to make money because they make the wrong kind of films, don't understand script development and always think too small (In terms that they make films for the UK market that by itself is too small to sustain the cost of production of even sub £1M budgets).

Maybe you're the exception to that rule.

But what you have to remember is I've heard what you just posted from dozens of UK producers and it doesn't sound like thinking outside of the box to me -- it is identical to the spiel of every other UK indie producer I've ever spoken to.

It doesn't sound fresh to me -- indie producers all think they're breaking new ground -- and yet they all say exactly exactly the same things. What I don't see is any evidence that they are able to turn these concepts into actual business.

If you were able to show investors that they'd get a 25% return on their investment in one year, with a less than 25% risk of loss, then you wouldn't have any problem finding investors, because you would then be on par with another high yield, high risk investments and people could slot your film into their portfolio.

Your problem is that you can't provide a solid financial case for ROI, you can't even guarantee to those people who are investing £5 that they'll ever see that £5 again.

This is why funding in the UK feels difficult -- it's because every UK indie producer goes in knowing deep down that their investors are going to get shafted.

It's deeply cynical game, played by frankly selfish people, who always manage to find a wage for themselves out of the budget.

Clive - I took nothing from Left For Dead, and still haven't, making sure everyone who was involved in the film got their share. They money left we have invested into another film. Myself and my company have a reputation where poeple WANT to work for us, because we treat them right and make sure they don't loose out.

We have downside sales estimates of over £250k for FIXERS, based on a £150k budget and based on the package we have. Whilst I don't ever say we can guarentee a return (letrs be honest what film can - espeically Brit films), we have proven we can take a film with a modets budget, make it look several 100 times more than it cost, sell it and turn a profit.

With that in mind I'm sure MOST investors (and again I'm not selling this as an investment) will see that there is a high chance of getting their money back with a little on top.

But I guess it's down to how we sell this and how we make the offer seem attractive. And to be honest I would never ask someone to invest in something that I knew wouldn't ever make a return.

I pride myself on the honest and open way I work and the honest way I deal with people. That's why we have a rep where people want to work with us, be it UK actors or major US genre stars.

And that's why there will be clauses enabling people to get their money back if the film doesnt film or if the money we raise isn't enough.

And whilst you may have heard this before, does that mean we cant do this better, more attractively than anyone else? Does that mean i should give up? Or does it mean I need to try harder to get people's interest and make people an offer they can't refuse?

Clive - believe it or not I do have a clue of what I'm doing, what the market will pay for the kind of films I make, what the market is the film will be heading to and what it's chances of sucsess will be. I also know that the UK industry is in the worst state it has been in years and that the films being made are failing to break even across the board because the majority of UK film makers have to high asperations, waste far too much money and have budgets that are unsustainable. That most UK film makers have no concept of why the US industry has been so sucsessful and sustainable (read Genre production - modest/small budgets, high returns)and think their rom com or drama will break big and net them millions when in fact it will struggle to get sold, never see a US cinema run and will die after a few screenings at the local Odeon. And that most angel investors or invesment companies will only look at certain types of films, the one's they believe will make money but never do.

I have my feet firmly on the ground.

You're right... it's your business... you know what you're doing.

I'll get my coat!

Ha! Clive it's not like that at all. I value your point of view, and that of the others around here.

The point I'm trying to make is that to do the film the way we want we are having to look at different ideas, which if they work, will benifit others in the long run. And that comes from expereince of dealing in the UK market for almost 10 years, meeting companies at cannes and finding out what we have and what we can aciheve with that.

It comes from the most realistic research, taking the script, the cast and the crew to the people who are selling these films and find out what budget range we have to set it at to ENSURE the film makes back it's money and to ENSURE that the investors get the money back in the current market place (which is a very bleak place by all accounts).

I understand that with a different cast or a different director or a different this that and the other we could set the budget higher, get a better cast and make the film easier (well raising the finance) but I'd be doing that in the knowledge of the investors probably never seing their money back, which happens with 95 of all pure UK films regardless of genre.

And that's why we are in the catch 22.

Rik - the idea is to take this beyond the film people, who are always less responsive & prickly when having to deal with the concept of other films that aren't theres, and open this across across the web and the UK to a bigger audiance, to people who still think that being part of a film is special. Who think that £5 is a small ammount and worth the chance. And there are several thousand of them out there! (well I'm hoping at least 30,000!!!)
We aren't always less responsive an picky - sometimes our past experience leads to a different point of view. Frankly, if a producer showed that 30,000 people are willing to donate £5 to be part of a film then I would instantly jump on the band wagon. My curiosity isn't disapproval or meant to cast aspersion. My experience in this kind of project suggests there are barely 30,000 people willing to buy a film like this - and that's with great marketing. Getting 30,000 people to invest, to feel they are part of the production with nothing really to show for it, seems like one hell of a hurdle. Much harder than getting 30 people to invest £5,000
If posting on this board has tought me one thing is that you guys are the wrong audiance. EVERYONE else (over 500 people) I ahve directly chatted or emailed this idea to, inclduing people in the industry, think it's an inovtaive idea that could work. Could.
We may not be the audience who will donate £5, but many of us are working filmmakers who have some experience with investors and marketing. And many of us buy movies to support our fellow indie filmmakers. A £5 donation isn't out of the question for us fellow filmmakers.

Anyway, it seems you already have a huge response! 500 people think it's a great idea. With a start of £2,500 you are on your way to creating a new investment model.
As for the admin. Yep it's going to be a bitch but that's whay I employ PA's!!! Well my partner. And by employ I mean cook dinner. Occacionaly. Ha! But seriously most of it will be automatic and require min extra work (especially on the lower amounts).
Which is why I'm curious about these people feeling part of the project. People feel a part of something if that can ask questions, talk to the producer, go to meetings, go to the set, show the finished film to their friends with their name on it, direct their friends to their IMDb page. Simply by sheer volume you will not be able to make 10,000 or 5,000 or even 1,000 people who have given you £5 feel a part of the project. You can dismiss my opinion because I'm a filmmaker, but I also am a partner in an investment group and a consumer of movies. As that consumer - someone who buy a lot of movies in this style - I just don't see how my £5 will make me a part of the film. A password protected site and automated emails doesn't seem personal enough.

But I'll pony up my two shares (£10) the day you reach 10,000 investors.

Rik - you make a few very good points.

People
It's a numbers game and the more we get it out to and how we spin it to each audienace will get us the numbers. Using local, national and regional press contacts we can reach millions of people. Then it's just making it worth there while investing which is what we are still looking at.

IMDB
Hell if I can I'll list everyone possible on the IMDB. I see how nice they feel that day!!!

Making People Feel A Part
Thinking on this there will be a forum and an open email address that anyone can email or ask us questions regarding the film. There will be email updates as well, inviting anyone in the area to visit the set or meet the cast & crew events (which will be number limited but done on a first come first served basis and then next time you will go behind others that havent come), a weekly updated blog. We'll even put behind the scenes doco's on the site and maybe a patron of the week where we run a profile on an investor per week.

But this is what I wanted... any ideas that would make you, the film maker, feel part of this. I want ideas from you guys, that's why I posted this. I want you to suggest things I may not have thought about. Believe it or not and contray to popular suggestion I AM open to ideas but constructive ones within the frame work of what we are trying to achieve not comments like (and Rik this doesnt apply to you) that will never work.

I can work. And will.

Rik - you make a few very good points.

But this is what I wanted... any ideas that would make you, the film maker, feel part of this. I want ideas from you guys, that's why I posted this. I want you to suggest things I may not have thought about. Believe it or not and contray to popular suggestion I AM open to ideas but constructive ones within the frame work of what we are trying to achieve not comments like (and Rik this doesnt apply to you) that will never work.

I can work. And will.

Well, I love brainstorming, just for the sake of doing it, so here are a couple of ideas:


#1: Obviously, this concept needs to have a huge buzz factor in order to really work. (after reading all the interesting previous posts). I say sign up an edgy actor to star in an edgy script, (think of something on the order of Napolian Dynomite actor starring in Napolian Dynomite II or some such script), and spent some cash developing and implementing a viral campaign, I'd imagine you might have a better chance of success with a edgy comedy - over any other 'genre,' but maybe I'm wrong. Of course, it will be a LOT of work to locate and court the right actor who would be up for this sort of thing.

#2: The 'right' webiste is crucial. Nothing too high tech (averge joe would think: why are you asking for $$ if you've got the dough for bells and whistles), but clever and filled with 'extras' like a trailer, a video of the star pitching the project in a unique way, script sample, audition tapes, a visual guage of how close you are to reaching your $$ goal (or not?? it might back fire), and some of the content should be updated regularly, i.e., a blog.

#3: Consider developing a way to be upfront with people and circumvent the paper work nightmare. Tell them up front that they will not get anything else from you for their $10 DONATION, beyond what they will receive immediately after their donation. Say, for example, they donate $5 and are immediately and automatically emailed a 'donation certificate,' and an autographed photo of the star. You are gaining their participation simply because they want to be 'in' the 'in' crowd and have their collector's item donation certificate and photo. Or something to that idea. I'm not a tech wiz, so I'm sure there are loopholes in implementing this kind of thing. I"m not a lawyer, either. But avoiding the word 'investment' is obvious.

#4 Have a sign in guest book on your website where donator's can leave a message for all to see.

#5 I would absolutely avoid holding any give-aways, contests, sweepstakes, etc. Those kinds of things are a legal and logistical nightmare for anyone but the very experienced and well-represented. You will all but guarantee your failure by doing anything that smacks of a contest. Lawyers will be on your butt in a hot second. Internet fraud? Mail fraud? Yes, that's what they'd come after you for - because the rules for this kind of activity (at least in the US) are thick and stringent.

#6 Pitch yourself to late night tv shows, call in radio shows, newspapers (a steady stream of press relases emailed to select news sources). Hire a good PR agent (yes, spend a bit of dough on the right person and it can pay off. Of course, you could wait till you start to take off, then approach a PR house and see if they'll take you on, pro bono for the... PR value. Yep. They want good PR, too) Regular contact with a simple follow up call that's not pushy, just friendly. A helluva lot of work, yes.

Well, if these are the kinds of ideas you're looking for, there you go. This discussion has been very interesting and I see valid points made in all posts. Good luck!

Media hero... great ideas.

1. See what you mean about the give aways. That needs to be looked at.

2. Def keep the website simple. As for owner ship and involvement we are thinking behind the scenes videos and maybe even live streaming if we can. Also we had an idea about letting people vote of different edits of a scene again to raise owner ship and involvement. If done right people willbe happy to have a say, no matter how small in the making.

3. PR will be relentless! That's one thing I am good at!

Thanks!

I think a live webcast of a movie shoot would be a pretty cool thing to see. although not really exciting for most of it.

Hold on -- I've a better, more innovative and simpler idea.

Pre-sell a limted edition DVD direct to the public.

Ask people to invest $20 -- for which they'll get an exclusive "investors" DVD of the film posted to them on completion.

It's a simple direct to the consumer pre-sales deal -- you don't have to worry about finding a return for the investors and they are guranteed to get something for their money.

If you have a fixed run of about 20,000 DVDs the unit cost is going to be less than $2 a unit, $5 max with shipping

K.I.S.S.

Hold on -- I've a better, more innovative and simpler idea.

Pre-sell a limted edition DVD direct to the public.

Ask people to invest $20 -- for which they'll get an exclusive "investors" DVD of the film posted to them on completion.



This is an intereting idea. Any legal ramifications, I wonder? Beyond avoiding the word 'investment?' I'm guesing, in order to implement this legally, you might have to provide a physical item, i.e., emailed photograph of the cast, or something inexpensive that can mail cheap (email is best), that people get for their money up front, in addition to the DVD of the completed film.

Don't forget to add in postage to mail the DVD into your budget for this scenario.

Hold on -- I've a better, more innovative and simpler idea.

Pre-sell a limted edition DVD direct to the public.

Ask people to invest $20 -- for which they'll get an exclusive "investors" DVD of the film posted to them on completion.

It's a simple direct to the consumer pre-sales deal -- you don't have to worry about finding a return for the investors and they are guranteed to get something for their money.

If you have a fixed run of about 20,000 DVDs the unit cost is going to be less than $2 a unit, $5 max with shipping

K.I.S.S.

I've always suspected that no one reads my posts...

thought I had heard that one before ;)

You guys are going to eventually land on a scheme that will make a movie you know.

Then what will you do? :P

I've always suspected that no one reads my posts...

sorry J --- I picked up the thread halfway through

I think John's suggestion shows just how difficult Phil's idea can be. If one cannot pre-sell 20,000 units of an unproduced movie, then it seems impossible to get 20,000 people to donate (or invest) with the promise of a discount on the finished DVD. Have you considered this method, Phil?

As most of us know, selling 20,000 to 30,000 units of a finished movie takes marketing and distribution contacts beyond what most producers can handle - or want to handle. That's why we need distributors. What Phil is trying to do is essentially market and distribute a movie that hasn't been made.

Phil - I'm curious about the 500 people who think this is an idea that could work. How many of them have agreed to invest?

Clive/John - Whilst I like the idea about pre-selling DVD's the issue would be that this would cross swords with the sales agent and potentially could damage profit/return of the territory sales. That said I like the idea so may look at potential a bonus disk that would be unavailable anywhere else except with this offer.

Rik- At the moment all 500 have pledges a min of £5 to the project once the site is up and running. We will be putting in the first £2k as well, so potentially that makes almost £5k start which considering we haven’t even started marketing isn’t a bad start!

What do they see in this? We are marketing it as the opportunity to be involved in a feature film, to own a part of film history. This idea seems to fly with people… the chance of owning part of a film. Also knowing they will get back at least their stake when the film hits profit, based on sales figs we have had in advance.

Most see it as a safe loan where they get a change to donate, get their money back but still be a part of something special.

I'll have some of the marketing materials for this up and running soon and as usual would like to get your thoughts on there effectivness... should be in the next week or so!

I'll be happy to review anything you've got. Just let me know.

Cheers Media!

Long one coming: This with form the FAQ for the site... any suggestions/comments?

£5.00? Really? Won’t it take forever to raise the money this way?
Yes just £5.00 (The cost of a early performance cinema ticket or a most of a pack of cigarettes) and no, we believe that with the package we have and the marketing behind this idea we can raise the money within 6 months maximum.

What happens if you don’t raise the full budget?
Three options. If, say, we only raise half the amount or more then you will be asked what you wish to do. We can either make the film for the money we have, offer you a full refund plus any interest, or extend the period we have to raise the finance. Either way the choice will be yours.

Can an action film REALLY be done for this little?
Yes. The bulk of the costs for any feature film are the cast and crew costs. Out of the $40million budget for a studio film like Cable Guy, Jim Carrey got in excess of $20 million pay cheque. We have, in conjunction with our experienced US and Australian based producers, set a budget than takes full advantage of new technology and the equipment we have in place. Also with our contacts and the deals we have in place, we know that the money we are looking at raising is more than enough to make a high quality action feature.

Won’t the film look ‘cheap’?
No. Our first feature cost less than 10% of the budget range that is set for FIXERS, yet most people (including leading industry figures like Mark L. Lester, director of Hollywood productions such as Commando and Firestarter) thought the film cost more than 50 times what it did. So if a $10k movie shot in Digital Film can look closer to half a million $ imagine what a £150k film could look like when it’s using some of the best independent talent from around the world, both in front and behind the camera, and cutting edge technology including the latest High Definition Digital Video cameras.

Has this ever been done before?
Yes. A UK director, Nick Love (‘Football Factory’, ‘The Business’) raised half the budget for his latest film this way, over $600k USD. So the precedent has been established, but we want to build on this, making people far more involved in the process and give them a sense of ownership of the film. Something that didn’t happen with Nick Love’s film. Also we are making this accessible to everyone, setting the minimum amount at just £5. In essence we are taking an elitist industry and opening it up to everyone for the first time…

How can a small budgeted UK action film compete with blockbusters like Mission Impossible 3 and the like?
The fact is that we are not competing. We are making a film that, primarily, is targeted for a DVD/home release. So in fact we are looking at competing with straight to DVD films. That said, we hope to have a small theatrical run in the UK which promotes the film’s release. But as far as getting “bang for your buck” goes, all of the money invested will be onscreen. In addition to this the action sequences are being co-ordinated by very experienced professionals who have worked in the Hong Kong and Hollywood film industries. They know how to make the most of the budget and time we have to help us produce a spectacular looking product.

Will the film recoup its money?
We have downside (i.e.: minimum return) estimates of over £200k. That’s a minimum. Now whilst this isn’t guaranteed (and what is in this world?) these figures come from an experienced, industry leading sales agent, with over 20 years selling this type of film. In short he knows what sells and has already signed us up to sell the film when it is completed. This has never happened before on a low budget UK action film.

Why will your film be successful when other UK films have not?
Partly because we have a lean budget that will all end up on screen (no huge star or director – producer salaries here!) and partly because we are working in a tried and tested (and hugely profitable) genre that has international appeal the world over. The film already has a huge potential worldwide audience. Also we have a cast and crew which are second to none, many of whom come with a built in fan base.

Surely with so many action films being made the film will be lost in a sea of straight to DVD movies?
Year on year direct-to-DVD action and horror movies are some of the most profitable movies around. And with Video On Demand, streaming and downloading becoming more prevalent the market place has opened up even more. As technology grows so do new avenues to sell the film and to make a profit. DVD, BluRay, HD-DVD, UMD… there are now more outlets for a film than EVER before.

Why can’t I get a free copy of the film?
If we did that then it would seriously damage the return on investment for the film, and the chances of you getting back your money. However we will be providing exclusive ‘extras’ for investors that will be unavailable ANYWHERE else (downloadable from the site) as well as enough freebies and incentives to make investment on any level worthwhile.

What happens if I change my mind?
Simple. You get a full refund, with any interest accrued, minus any (small) charges like postage etc.

Can I be involved in making the film?
Yes. Although we can only offer certain roles in front and behind the camera due to numbers, we want everyone to be part of the film, to have a real sense of ownership. So we will be offering investors a chance to make key decisions on casting, the editing and marketing of the film. This will be done via online polls, with the results shaping the film. We’ll also be doing things like streaming from filming on-set so you can see, no matter where in the world you are, what we are up to and what we are doing.

What will I get for my money?
It depends on how much you invest. BUT you will at least get your stake money back when the film covers it’s costs, online discounts with retailers, an extras DVD unavailable anywhere else, free short films from the producer/director team, your name on the credits, the DVD, website and in special press advertising, a chance to be part of the filmmaking process, to shape the final film and access to all the legal and financial information. For more information see the investors section on the website…

Why should I trust you with our money?
As far as track records go, ours is pretty impressive. We recouped the costs from our first film, made a small profit, sold it internationally and saw it picked up by a leading Beverly Hills based sales agent. In addition we are backed by some of the UK's leading film, martial arts and action magazines & websites, not to mention major PLC companies and national news media. In short the film will have the highest profile of any film of this kind. Also you will be covered by a legally binding agreement, that will protect your interests.

If it's this easy why isn't everyone doing it?
It isn't easy at all. Making a film takes an extraordinary amount of perseverance, tenacity and know-how. The website alone with the administration, set-up and maintenance will take hours each day alone. As many filmmakers will tell you, making a feature film is never easy. The difference here is we have an experienced and very talented cast and crew, and already have an international sales agent in place. We also have a track record in making profitable feature films, and very much know the target market for the finished product. We know what actually sells and more importantly how to sell it, which again puts us a step above a lot of other productions out there.

How long will it take to recoup the budget and start making a profit?
Estimates are 1 year from the first sales market, which if all goes to plan will be Cannes in May 2007. However this could change depending on how the general climate is at the time. The finished film will start to be sold at the next sales market after it is completed.

When will royalty payments be made?
This has not been decided yet but it is reasonable to estimate that every quarter the profits will be divided up and split amongst the investors. Payment will be made either via online methods, bank transfers or cheque depending on where in the world you are.

What is the worst case scenario for the film as you see it?
The worst case is that we raise the money, the film gets sold but only recoups its budget and investors see their minimum stake back and that’s it (however you will still all receive the extras on offer!). Whilst there are other scenarios, this is the most probable of the ‘worst case’ outlooks. Which isn’t that bad, is it?

I have more questions… who can I ask?
Me! The producers of this film, as well as the cast & crew, will be open for questions all through the process. So if you have a question just email me…

A couple of initial impressions:

Consider adding sections covering these ideas:

How we will keep in contact with you?
We will communicate regularly with all investors via email. (Or maybe: We ask that you regularly visit our website for updates and news.) ......

How will you know when the film has covered its 'costs' and you're eligible to see your stake money returned?
Our accounting department will maintain a current budget tally on a password-protected website for investors to track expenditures.


[And I would advise considering this option for those who can only give a small 'investment'.... the paperwork for a small amount will not be worth the time it will take to account for it. So maybe try this.....]

You can opt to 'donate' rather than 'invest.'
For those who want to be part of this project, but have limited funds to invest, we offer you the opportunit to join a special 'Donation Club.' Members enjoy special the 'behind the scenes' perks, including such and such, and will have their name included in the special DVD credits, etc., etc.. For a simple $5 donation, you can become part of this unique film production and a member of our exclusive Donation Club. You won't have to worry about gaining 'investment' returns or filing special tax forms. Simply join our 'Donation Club' for $5 and you're automatically a part of our production team.


That's all I have off the top of my head right now....

Nice. Thanks Media... at least someone's still reading!!!